Covenant pigeonhole

[Kralljin]

I never said anything about power creep, that's the OP, i love powercreep.

Yeah my bad, however doesn't change the fact that Ion said they want to avoid powercreep.

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah my bad, however doesn't change the fact that Ion said they want to avoid powercreep.

I don't think ion knows what they want, in the same interview they talked about avoiding power creep they said they were thinking about expanding the trees /shrug

[Eapoe]

We are killing imagination, immersion and RPG elements for the sake of some min maxers not having an headache for not having the ABSOLUTE BEST imba l33t choice all the time...

How is this fair...

Im starting to hate min maxers...

Why not have both? Are you saying you’d play a game like Final Fantasy and play the whole game with the first weapon you have because you like the appearance better?
Before xmog would you wear greens to a raid because you like the appearance better?
That’s your argument right now.
I’m not arguing to always have to play the best, I’m arguing to have aesthetics be equal to truly play what you want. Blizzard states that one won’t be so OP it’s a must pick, and I’m simply pointing out that never works without having something be nerfed into uselessness.

[Alcsaar]

I mean, that's kind of the point though, it's supposed to be a weighty choice that you have to look at all variables for. There is an out though if you find yourself not liking the one you pick.

- - - Updated - - -



And they shouldn't be, leveling alts faster, maybe some catchup on alts, is one thing, but alts are a separate character, they shouldn't just have everything your main does and the choice of covenant should matter... you shouldn't just be able to do 4 alts and have all cosmetics and all mounts on everything...

Why not? The systems are designed to only be done once, why force some one to do it again just because they like to have different characters?

Do I really need to be punished because I enjoy being able to play two different types of characters? That feels like some pretty archaic thought processes to me.

[Dotality]

There is no possible way you could make this work in real life scenario. You either reduce overall impact of the abilities (straight up like 50% off essences) or you are gonna be stuck with 1-3 op ones and rest being there for RP and cosmetics. It's just how an mmo works, just look at the essences. If i underperform in a high end m+ because i dont have bis convenant, thats on me. I really hope Im wrong but I also really hope Blizzard does something right for once.

[Big Thanks]

Why not have both? Are you saying you’d play a game like Final Fantasy and play the whole game with the first weapon you have because you like the appearance better?
Before xmog would you wear greens to a raid because you like the appearance better?
That’s your argument right now.
I’m not arguing to always have to play the best, I’m arguing to have aesthetics be equal to truly play what you want. Blizzard states that one won’t be so OP it’s a must pick, and I’m simply pointing out that never works without having something be nerfed into uselessness.

Both? Rpg AND min maxing? At the same time?
I dont see how it is possible. Because all "RPG" choices have both ups and downs. And there is no "downs" in min maxing.

You example of using low level items is actually funny, because ive done something similar to that.
BUT
Your example is an "extreme".
Blizzard already told us there wont be "extremes" like that in this system.

Good customization in PvP comes in the form of:
-Buffs/Debuffs
-Utility
-Self Healing
-Tankyness
-Burst damage windows
-Braindead DPS increase
-Mobility

I sure hope Blizzard is able to deliver all of this as a playground to test and have fun...in all its unbalanced glory.
As it should be a playground of imagination

[Onikaroshi]

Why not? The systems are designed to only be done once, why force some one to do it again just because they like to have different characters?

Do I really need to be punished because I enjoy being able to play two different types of characters? That feels like some pretty archaic thought processes to me.

The systems are designed to have catchup, you don't need to be GIVEN it, put some work into your alts if you want something. And i say this as a guy with about 20 120s

[MoanaLisa]

So I made a bullshit chart

And that's why I wouldn't overly worry about min/maxing based on this. There's no guarantee that this has any basis in reality so don't stress.

[Alcsaar]

The systems are designed to have catchup, you don't need to be GIVEN it, put some work into your alts if you want something. And i say this as a guy with about 20 120s

Most catch up mechanics don't even get implemented or activated until 1 or 2 major content patches into the expansion.

And a catch up mechanic is a lot different than a system like covenants where you might want to unlock the cosmetics for all covenants by leveling 4 characters. Thats fine - but only being able to use those cosmetics on the char you unlocked them on isn't.

[Agrossive]

And a new class is supposedly too much to balance? Holy crap that's a ton of things that can go wrong.

[Onikaroshi]

Most catch up mechanics don't even get implemented or activated until 1 or 2 major content patches into the expansion.

And a catch up mechanic is a lot different than a system like covenants where you might want to unlock the cosmetics for all covenants by leveling 4 characters. Thats fine - but only being able to use those cosmetics on the char you unlocked them on isn't.

It's a choice to pick that covenant, you should't be able to pick Kyrian but have have Necrolord cosmetics because your main is a necrolord, it makes no sense. Only thing I could see is, if your main is Necrolord and you make your alt Necrolord, you have access to earned cosmetics.

BTW, the alt "catchup" is in from day one on this one.

[Alcsaar]

It's a choice to pick that covenant, you should't be able to pick Kyrian but have have Necrolord cosmetics because your main is a necrolord, it makes no sense. Only thing I could see is, if your main is Necrolord and you make your alt Necrolord, you have access to earned cosmetics.

BTW, the alt "catchup" is in from day one on this one.

And what about in the next expansion when covenants don't exist anymore? Still pointlessly locked?

No thanks. I don't want to spend a ton of time earning cosmetics only to not have access to them if I decide to play another character in the future. No one wants to have their work erased because they decide int he future that they want to play a different class but can't justify it because they lose out on cosmetics they earned ages ago that can't be obtained anymore and are character locked.

[Kralljin]

I don't think ion knows what they want, in the same interview they talked about avoiding power creep they said they were thinking about expanding the trees /shrug

No idea where they said that they plan to expand the trees themselves, i'm referring to this interview:


Around 22:30 he specifically talks about powercreep and Soulbind.
I don't know, maybe "expanding" means simply adding more choices into a tree rather than expanding it that you get more stuff in total.
Those trees seem to have two branches, perhaps they add later more, rather than expanding the tree as a whole.

[Onikaroshi]

And what about in the next expansion when covenants don't exist anymore? Still pointlessly locked?

No thanks. I don't want to spend a ton of time earning cosmetics only to not have access to them if I decide to play another character in the future. No one wants to have their work erased because they decide int he future that they want to play a different class but can't justify it because they lose out on cosmetics they earned ages ago that can't be obtained anymore and are character locked.

Covenants will still exist, just like class halls and the class story still exists now. If you want to change your covenant in 10.0 you better go back and earn the new one.

Or they could do it like Artifacts, get it once, it's unlocked for everyone of that class. I don't really care what they do AFTER Shadowlands.

[Irian]

Okay but we know virtually nothing about class design, boss encounters or any other potential synergies these effects may have with other classes so this is all a giant waste of time. Additionally, some of these will almost definitely change before launch.

Maybe invest your effort into mathing out every single detail once we have some decently concrete information.

[Beefhammer]

They said at Blizzcon that they haven't decided if the mounts/cosmetics will be usable on alts or not yet. That's probably why people are concerned, rightfully so.

I must have missed that. Ty.

[Revamp Man]

I’m always curious as to what the actual numbers really are. I truly wonder how many don’t give a shit and just do what ever. You hear about it a lot, but I don’t see to many of those players

Because those players are the ones in the heroic and lower guilds

To clarify I'm in a heroic guild and until I feel like aiming for a rank 1 I honestly don't care

Though the kyrian ability for WW seems interesting

[LiteTheWay]

How in hell were you able to do something like this with so little information?

With a bit of effort and the core idea of the examples that were given, it's an extrapolation of the data and just applied to each spec per class.