Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[zhero]

Turns out all along they were made in the shadowlands! I guess since KJ is dead now they are spitting on his grave in order to promote the new big boi boss. I wonder what new retcons are in store with this expansion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blizzar...ast-story/amp/

that article told me nothing about frostmourne or the Lich King's armor. its still possible the nathrezim made it there. its also entirely possible that blizzard doesn't even remember half of their lore.

[Oneirophobia]

KJ never made it in the first place, he got the Nathrezim to make it for him. While im not a fan of retcons, it isnt a stretch to fit into the story that the Nathrezim either made it or got it made for them at the forge. Blizzard can make it right, but who knows if they will.

The Nathrezim have always been hyper mysterious. Nobody knows anything about what they were like before they were demons, not even themselves (as shared by whats-his-face the "cleansed" Nathrezim in Legion) because it happened so long ago.

I'd like to see their lore expanded upon. Perhaps they're originally from Revendreth, escaped from the Shadowlands, and began suffering because there wasn't any/enough anima to sustain them and were forced to turn to the Fel to sate their hunger. It would explain why they're vampires, why they have such an intimate relationship with death and necromancy, and why they had access to the Helm of Domination.

[philmccracken]

Old Lore: Kil'jaeden told the Nathrezim to make Frostmourne and the LK armor so they went somewhere and made it.
New Lore: Kil'jaeden told the Nathrezim to make Frostmourne and the LK armor so they went to the Shadowlands and made it.

Wow, what a shocking betrayal of the lore. Truly the worst retcon ever. How can it recover?

[WorldofWorkcraft]

that article told me nothing about frostmourne or the Lich King's armor. its still possible the nathrezim made it there. its also entirely possible that blizzard doesn't even remember half of their lore.

If they did, I want to see my boy Lothraxion back in the picture. I don't care why. Dude is badass as hell, if only in looks.

[Kathranis]

how do you know that the nathrezim didnt go to the shadowlands to craft the helm of domination and frostmourne??

Exactly. The nathrezim are vampiric demons who look like gargoyles and they were amongst the first necromancers in the cosmos, if not the first.

And the first raid we're getting in Shadowlands is called Nathria, and is located in Revendreth, home to vampires and gargoyles.

[Sezh]

What I don't understand about Shadowlands is the weight that is put into the quote "There must always be a Lich King". And when the Lich King is no more, suddenly the sky explodes and the gate to the afterlife is opened.

What about all those thousands upon thousands of years before a demon created the Lich King?

[Medievaldragon]

TBH, this is the first I've heard of any Titan "falling" in any capacity other than Sargeras, and definitely the first time I've heard of one dying (since it wasn't even really explained if Argus died at the end of Antorus or not). What's your source?

I had to dig in my website for the source. This was first introduced in World of Warcraft (2004) around the time the pre-opening of Ahn'Qiraj quests began. The quote comes from Geologist Laksbane.

Geologist Laksbane: “It is history … A history of Silithus … of Ahn’Quiraj … of Titans and Old Gods … I read from the prophecy of C’Thun as written by the Qiraji Prophet Skerran. A prophecy that portends a cataclysm …

In the time before time, when the world was still in its infancy, a battle between a Titan and a being of unimaginable evil and power raged on this very soil. The prophecy is unclear about whether or not the Titan was vanquished in this battle but it illustrates that a Titan fell. An Old God had also fallen – or so it was thought."

So in the canon, a Titan was defeated in Silithus. It is not clear what the word "vanquished" stands for here (whether it means defeated, but survived; or died). That's why originally in 2004, I thought this could have been Sargeras being infested by the old god as the source of his later corruption (a very old theory I used to have back then) -- but now that Shadowlands has come up, I now wonder if the Jailor is whoever the Titan that fell in Silithus was (not Sargeras that is).

However, I would be surprised if the Jailor is Ner'zhul.

[Aucald]

What I don't understand about Shadowlands is the weight that is put into the quote "There must always be a Lich King". And when the Lich King is no more, suddenly the sky explodes and the gate to the afterlife is opened.

What about all those thousands upon thousands of years before a demon created the Lich King?

The explosion of the sky and the intrusion of the Shadowlands into Azeroth wasn't the original rationale for the phrase "there must always be a Lich King" - it was because without a Lich King, the mass of the Scourge would run rampant across Azeroth in an uncontrolled frenzy. The result of the destruction of the Helm of Domination was an entirely unseen thing, and likely more a product of the damage that had been done to the system controlling the Shadowlands (e.g. the actions of the Jailer and Sylvanas) as opposed to some intrinsic property of the Helm or the Lich King himself.

[InfiniteCharger]

The thing is that a lot of people don't seem to actually understand what a "retcon" is. For something to be a retcon, it need to reframe or change an established / past events in the story. Something adding into the story that might contradicts against certain readers / players' speculation is not necessarily a retcon. Otherwise, long-running series of mysteries would have been filled with "retcons".

To elaborate upon it: in your example, if it turned from "There is an evil king ruling over a continent" into "There is a wizard ruling over a continent", it will be a retcon since there isn't any evil king anymore. However, if the authors simply added "Oh, said evil king is actually a wizard", it wouldn't be a retcon - it would just be an elaboration as there was still an evil king, and said evil king was a wizard.

So if people want to complain about "retcon", first ask yourself: did this new piece of information changed the story, or the story was still the same with just some new bits added into it. Sylvanas wanting to be a warchief sounds like a retcon (since we've seen her inner monologue), but KJ / the Nathrezim creating Lich King armor using relics or power in the Shadowlands aren't one yet (at least based on what we know so far).
(Noted that not being a retcon doesn't mean it's not bad-writing, but that's another matter - I only want people to avoid misusing the term)


You are getting it wrong. I wasn't talking about corpse running when I said "We have come to Shadowlands and returned as early as during WoTLK". I was referring to the quest in Howling Fjord where we visited Shadowland and even got caught by the Lich King (Arthas) - the one where he mentioned "I was a shaman once". Story-related quests are canon. Death Knight introduction quest is canon.

Moreover, "Death in game and in lore is that once something dies it stays dead" and ""Death" as a concept means you die and your soul leaves the plane of the living" is incorrect. Blizzard themselves have stated otherwise as recent as Blizzcon 2018, quoting them, "As with all things in World of Warcraft and in general in the Warcraft universe, death is not always final". I even brought up a few examples for this before: Medivh was dead - decapitated then burned away from inside, leaving only his skin left. Did he stay dead? Was he stuck in Shadowlands? No. He was able to observe the Twisting Nether, figured out the plan of the Legion and the Lich King even before Aegwynn brought him back. MU Gul'dan was dead, rendered to a mere skull - was his soul stuck in Shadowlands? Nope, the skull could converse with people by whispers just fine. In WoW, as long as there are enough power - and you don't need Titans level of power either - one can come back from dead. The more powerful beings can interact with the world even in death. If you are treating "death" as something sacred, final and absolutely separated from life, no offense, you are missing a lot of lore, or you are somehow ignoring all examples of dead beings interacting with the living world before (both in games and in novels).

Secondly, I'm not even sure how you are getting that Sylvanas' souls should be pulled back into Shadowlands now that "the veil is broken". That's, forgive me, headcanon right there. There has never been any indication that it would be the case before, and I don't think there is any now either. If you can find any statement indicating that Shadowlands work like some sort of Spiritual Blackhole / Vacumm that can tear the magic binding undead's bodies and souls apart and pull the souls back, feel free to give me the quote. AU Ner'zhul (in WoD) even pulled us into Shadowlands briefly while using Necromancy magic to attack us as well, in that logic, his undeads should have dropped there and then since their souls would be dragged away by Shadowlands, no?

Moreover, I think you are fixating on a pretty narrow view of "death". Your argument that "it is a contradiction in terms that "death" would give demons power to stop "death" from doing what "death" does. It is a logical contradiction like mixing oil and water" only hold if "Death" is some sort of an united force hellbent on opposing the living without any sort of planning for long term. That isn't true - or at least, it isn't guaranteed to be true. Death and Life are opposed concept doesn't mean they can never work together. They weren't merging into one - they were just working together, each for their own goals. I have already expressed my view of this in my previous post, so I won't be repeating myself to save both of our time.

To sum it up - all of your arguments revolve around your personal view of "Death" in WoW. However, as I have explained and supported examples, that doesn't seem to be the case in WoW for me - all the way back since as early as WoTLK (if not even earlier). I'd be happy to change my mind if there was any sort of irrefutable evidence supporting your view, but since there hasn't been any - why should your view be more canonical than others?

You are still trying to claim that "death" doesn't mean "death" as in no longer in the land of the living in a normal way, meaning a soul and flesh and blood body.Yes, we have seen souls and spirits interacting with the world of the living, mostly Night Elf souls no less, because the lore around Night Elf death has always been a bit different. Yet in general death as a concept in the game to this day has always meant the physical body and soul is no longer in the world of the living. It being "final" is not the same as saying "death" doesn't mean not in the land of the living. We know there are powerful forces that can return a soul back to the land of the living. For one, we know titans have the power to do it. But my point was that necromancy, death magic and demonic magic are against the order of the universe which means they don't "work with death" to use "death" against itself as a weapon to destroy the living. It is a silly illogical point. And the whole idea of "factions of death" is imply a lore breaking concept in my book, which was done for game play reasons. They needed to make new zones and couldn't come up with any on Azeroth so they made up some in the shadowlands instead. Its fine as this has been going on since WOW started. My point is that a lot of times these are actual retcons done to extend the game by providing new gameplay opportunities and zones for players. I don't see why folks keep trying to deny this. I call it retcon others say it expanding the lore. Doesn't mean you cant enjoy it for what it is, because as games go, most of the stories and lore are illogical to begin with.

The summation of my point the power of "death" is to keep things alive. Just like the power of "life" is to keep things alive. They are like oil and water. Undeath and death magic are aberrations to that as in a "cheat" against both life and death and it makes no sense for death to work with something to allow them to "cheat" death. Therefore, if "death" has power then it should be able to rip the souls of the dead from corpses reanimated with "death magic", especially when you go into the "death realm".

[Qualia]

The summation of my point the power of "death" is to keep things alive. Just like the power of "life" is to keep things alive. They are like oil and water. Undeath and death magic are aberrations to that as in a "cheat" against both life and death and it makes no sense for death to work with something to allow them to "cheat" death. Therefore, if "death" has power then it should be able to rip the souls of the dead from corpses reanimated with "death magic", especially when you go into the "death realm".

First and foremost, let me point out that "Death" in general - as in, for most beings in WoW - still means that the soul is separated from the body and won't remain in the world of the living any longer. Nothing we know from "Shadowlands" expansion has changed it. However, that's just the case for average people - that's not the case for more powerful beings, and we've seen many examples of powerful beings' deaths not following that generic rule. Moreover, in all cases (both powerful and less powerful beings), death is NOT final. It's just that for average people, they don't have enough power to come back and no one bother gathering enough power for them either.

Additionally, have you read Chronicle I? Necromancy - the power to create Undeath - was listed as part of "Death" in the cosmology chart. It even specifically said that Necromancy is a form of Death (as a cosmic force, among 5 others - Light, Void, Life, Order and Disorder). It was released years ago, why are you complaining that Necromancy shouldn't be part of Death now? It has been a canonical fact for years. Moreover, "Death" is a cosmic force - it's not a character. Shadowlands is a realm of existence / another dimension, it isn't sentient (at least as far as we know). There might be powerful beings in Shadowlands possessing the power to rip souls from bodies as you said, but why should that happen just because you step into it? There hasn't been any indication that it should be the case, as far as I know. I can see that you don't like the idea of factions inside Shadowlands and frankly, I'm not too fond of it either (although I don't hate it, mind you, I'm more of a neutral stance). However, I don't see how it would be lore-breaking. It doesn't contradict anything in lore before, and it's not even such a weird idea. That idea has been part of many real life myths and stories since forever.

Lastly, my point was that what we are talking about is not a retcon. It simply doesn't fit with the definition. Regarding what we are talking about, nothing in previous lore has been changed into something else, there just are more information added in it. Remember that your (or my, or anyone else's) speculation of something isn't part of the lore or its interpretation. As I said in my previous post, I have no problem with people disliking the story, but I don't want people to misuse the term.

[InfiniteCharger]

First and foremost, let me point out that "Death" in general - as in, for most beings in WoW - still means that the soul is separated from the body and won't remain in the world of the living any longer. Nothing we know from "Shadowlands" expansion has changed it. However, that's just the case for average people - that's not the case for more powerful beings, and we've seen many examples of powerful beings' deaths not following that generic rule. Moreover, in all cases (both powerful and less powerful beings), death is NOT final. It's just that for average people, they don't have enough power to come back and no one bother gathering enough power for them either.

Additionally, have you read Chronicle I? Necromancy - the power to create Undeath - was listed as part of "Death" in the cosmology chart. It even specifically said that Necromancy is a form of Death (as a cosmic force, among 5 others - Light, Void, Life, Order and Disorder). It was released years ago, why are you complaining that Necromancy shouldn't be part of Death now? It has been a canonical fact for years. Moreover, "Death" is a cosmic force - it's not a character. Shadowlands is a realm of existence / another dimension, it isn't sentient (at least as far as we know). There might be powerful beings in Shadowlands possessing the power to rip souls from bodies as you said, but why should that happen just because you step into it? There hasn't been any indication that it should be the case, as far as I know. I can see that you don't like the idea of factions inside Shadowlands and frankly, I'm not too fond of it either (although I don't hate it, mind you, I'm more of a neutral stance). However, I don't see how it would be lore-breaking. It doesn't contradict anything in lore before, and it's not even such a weird idea. That idea has been part of many real life myths and stories since forever.

Lastly, my point was that what we are talking about is not a retcon. It simply doesn't fit with the definition. Regarding what we are talking about, nothing in previous lore has been changed into something else, there just are more information added in it. Remember that your (or my, or anyone else's) speculation of something isn't part of the lore or its interpretation. As I said in my previous post, I have no problem with people disliking the story, but I don't want people to misuse the term.

Unfortunately that cosmology chart from chronicles is about as clear as mud and I wouldn't use it a s absolute proof of anything other than these are the general entities that exist in wow lore. Because according to that chart, air, water, earth and fire exist outside of any specific dimension. So I guess that is why we can breathe in the shadowlands of course because "air" is there. And since the shadowlands is not listed as a realm specifically associated with death, then "living" entities can exist there huh? Logically that is what that cosmology chart implies.

But I get your point. That cosmology chart supports any kind of lore expansion they want to make to some degree and therefore cannot be considered a "retcon" in a general sense, even though there are specific things in game that kind of stretch things a whole lot and probably contradict even that stretched way of looking at things.

[JohnnyMccrum]

I'm going to pass on this expansion. I'll just play classic Burning Crusade instead :/

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. The nathrezim are vampiric demons who look like gargoyles and they were amongst the first necromancers in the cosmos, if not the first.

And the first raid we're getting in Shadowlands is called Nathria, and is located in Revendreth, home to vampires and gargoyles.

What I don't understand is, why are these fucking vampires and not San'layn?

People would've fucking loved San'layn architecture, Kael'thas would've fit in there like a hand to a glove. It doesn't make much sense for no san'layn to exist in the shadowlands.

[TheFirstOnes]

They did create it. They just didn't use Magic. They used a powerful forge from Maldraxxus. What's the issue here?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going to pass on this expansion. I'll just play classic Burning Crusade instead :/

- - - Updated - - -



What I don't understand is, why are these fucking vampires and not San'layn?

People would've fucking loved San'layn architecture, Kael'thas would've fit in there like a hand to a glove. It doesn't make much sense for no san'layn to exist in the shadowlands.

Because not every race is Azerothian?

[Aucald]

I think it's mostly a case of "The fabric of the planes between the material and the Shadowlands is thin here and destroying a major artifact related to the Shadowlands ripped it open". And we don't really know what the consequences will be. The Scourge running wild has to do with the Helm but how that tear manages to draw us into the Shadowlands and what will happen if it is not fixed is a different issue; will Azeroth herself be drawn into the Shadowlands eventually?

Difficult to say, really. It's apparently Bolvar who leads the Champions and other Azerothians into the Shadowlands, and he's basically the PoI for this expansion in the same way Khadgar was for Legion, or Saurfang was for BfA. Somehow the Heart of Azeroth is used to tether the Champion and their retinue to Azeroth, allowing them to enter the Shadowlands without dying permanently and to escape the influence of the out-of-control Maw. This is probably how and why the Heart of Azeroth becomes defunct in Shadowlands, like the Artifact weapons before it.

[Goldielocks]

Amazing wasn’t aware Dreadlords commanded a force of undead as large as the Lich Kings.

Would love those screen shots and lore text

Literally just play the game. Three were sent to control the Scourge on Azeroth. A Dreadlord was Ner’zhul’s jailer.

Stop thinking the Lich King is special. He’s not.

[bullseyed]

That awkward moment when you realise lich king armor is factory made and there are 1000s of them.

That awkward moment when Arthas never wore the Plate of the Damned in WoW and no one knows where it is.

- - - Updated - - -

I love the original lore so much that it can never be expanded upon or even slightly tampered with. /s

My favorite part of the Kil'Jaeden / Lich King storyline is when the demons pulled the powers to create the Scourge out of their ass, have never by any recorded account used something like it in other worlds, and after WC3's storyline effectively gave up on using it again or addressing that undeath was a massive tool in their wheelhouse if they had the capability to do it. It's almost like the Kil'Jaeden connection in WC3 was an easy, hamfisted way to push through new characters and themes of other fantasy genres quickly without having to establish new origins or motivations - "Hey it's the demons making the undead, and ummm... Ner'Zhul, the shaman turned warlock turned lich... or something... you recognize all those names right?" You even had obtuse moments of there being 2 different types of Death Knights because it was just kinda shotgunned in.

Then in WotLK, with almost no remaining demon connections referenced in that expansion whatsoever other than the Scarlet Onslaught stuff, they transitioned the lore further to the nordic side of things with the Vrykul, Valkyr, and supposedly were working on expanding that death connection via Yogg Saron but failed to effectively do so. So there's generally been a sense for 10+ years that the team would've loved to expand out the lore of undeath, creating undead, creating the devices and tools to do so without needing to keep a demon / Nathrezim on hand or their one track motivations to justify any developments. This was seen as early as Cata when they said "Ok, Sylvanas can make some more with the Val'kyr".

So quick question - without any Shadowlands lore or connections, with full respect to the Lich King's creation and connection to Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim, what is the next interesting step for that character? One of the entities in his head takes control from Bolvar and he's a bad guy again and we get "Lich King Again featuring Undead"? I'd much rather receive expanded lore on the origins of undeath and the tools to achieve it that can sustain it being a major player in the game and story going forward beyond "Oh yeah some demons made it one day and it backfired and then they kinda forgot about it."

Agree that the original lore was bad and full of plotholes. The most plotholey part was how the Lich King was supposedly created by the Burning Legion (fel), but is somehow based on a throne of the old gods (void), so he's secretly serving the void lords against the Burning Legion, while pretending to serve the Burning Legion against the void lords.

So he's created from fel and corrupted by void... but somehow is supposedly in a place of power over death, which he has absolutely no involvement with and is an entirely different school of magic that neither demons nor void lords have access to.


If his armor, helmet and weapon came from Shadowlands, that isn't a retcon, it is the only possible explanation for any part of the Lich King story.

[Goldielocks]

If his armor, helmet and weapon came from Shadowlands, that isn't a retcon, it is the only possible explanation for any part of the Lich King story.

It’s not that simple. The Legion was originally envisioned to be good at all kinds of magic, not just Fel. It was only in TBC and Legion that it became the Fel club only. Back in WC3 Sargeras wasn’t even developed.

All of these retcons that pushed the Legion toward Fel so hard is what makes the Lich King stand out in retrospect.

[bullseyed]

Don't forget that the eredar also helped with Sargeras' corruption. Kil'jaeden going from a corrupter of a titan to someone who got duped by a titan was the biggest hit to his character. Having made (or ordered made or stolen or what have you) the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne in the Shadowlands pales compared to the BC retcons.

Well, the idea that some random mortal controlled a titan but then also put that titan in charge and became his lieutenant doesn't make much sense. The original story was bad.

[Qualia]

Agree that the original lore was bad and full of plotholes. The most plotholey part was how the Lich King was supposedly created by the Burning Legion (fel), but is somehow based on a throne of the old gods (void), so he's secretly serving the void lords against the Burning Legion, while pretending to serve the Burning Legion against the void lords.

So he's created from fel and corrupted by void... but somehow is supposedly in a place of power over death, which he has absolutely no involvement with and is an entirely different school of magic that neither demons nor void lords have access to.

... What? Is this some sort of sarcasm flying over my head, or are you making up lore on the spot? If that was sarcasm, I'm sorry, it's pretty hard to tell nowadays. If that wasn't, then let me just tell you that the bolded part are totally incorrect.

[bullseyed]

It’s not that simple. The Legion was originally envisioned to be good at all kinds of magic, not just Fel. It was only in TBC and Legion that it became the Fel club only. Back in WC3 Sargeras wasn’t even developed.

All of these retcons that pushed the Legion toward Fel so hard is what makes the Lich King stand out in retrospect.

I mean demons = fel, but they did enslave/recruit other races. So like the Orcs brought shaman magic I suppose. Probably why it is important that the Dreadlords did the Lich King stuff and not the demon-Burning Legion, because the demons wouldn't have had any way to do so, but maybe the Dreadlords did.

- - - Updated - - -

This thread is stupid as fuck. YOu keep complaining about Nathrezim and KJ creating the helm. Well who the fuck says they didn't create it with the help of the dezidens of the shadowlands? I swear you guys just complain to complain.

Idk about you, but it looks to me like the Revendreth guys:



https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpe...Revendreth.jpg

Are actually the source of the Nathrezim:



https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpe..._Dreadlord.jpg

Probably just corrupted with fel/demon stuff to make them have extra big horns and wings, like Draenei -> Kil'Jaeden.