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  1. #181
    Pandaren Monk
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    As a long-time warrior main, I was kind of torn on it. I did like how I could be playing a fury warrior and use my "bust out 1h/shield, go defensive stance, pop shield wall + other defensive cooldowns, tank boss for a few seconds" macro if the shit hit the fan. I usually died once the cooldowns fell off, but that saved my guild from wiping on a few occasions when our real tank went down because it gave everyone else time to adjust and recover.

    Not that I care about realism in games (I play games to escape reality), but it does bother me a little that my warrior can suddenly forget (and remember again just as quickly as he forgot) how to use various defensive techniques or weapon skills.
    Last edited by avitush; 2019-11-06 at 04:54 PM.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Octoberfest99 View Post
    I disagree that mages won't use cross spec spells. A frost or arcane mage might use fire blast in PVP because it is an instant cast spell and can be cast on the run; a fire or arcane mage might use frost bolt because of the slow; a frost or fire mage might use arcane explosion because it is instant cast AOE and can be cast on the run. Perhaps these are only situational abilities, but they could see legit use.

    And, if a fire mage can't use frost bolt because of spec identity, why can they open portals and cast time warp?
    But your frostbolt, as a fire mage, took a long time to cast, didn't slow the target very much and only for a very short time. It's just useless without talents.
    Back in Vanilla when i played my fire mage, while leveling, i tried to start with a frostbolt but quickly stopped it and just used fireballs since its effect was so small that it was of no use. And reapplying was even more useless due to it's long casting time.
    Fireblast never did much damage, as a Fire Mage it was useful to get certain procs.

    I don't even understand was class identity is supposed to mean. You never just played "a Druid" and groups never just wanted "a Druid".

  3. #183
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was fine, but a change is always good considering that things will be different, so i won't end up playing the same fire mage for third year in the row

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Blizz: WE ARE REMOVING PRUNING
    The thing about "depruning" i don't like - is that they bringing back old shit, instead of making new stuff - pruning happens after they add more and more new things and they make old things redundant, i don't like that backwards direction to be honest, but i'll have to wait and see when they're done with it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I'm also not a fan of adding redundant abilities to my spec. But hey, it really shouldn't affect play styles too much. Specs will probably have 1-2 extra useful spells, and everything rest can be kicked out of action bars.
    It will affect your playstyle, i already used this as an example, but look at flamestrike - it deals AoE damage and slows targets, it's an instant/3,5s cast. Now you get your frostbolt back on a 3 second cast as a firemage - now you have two abilities that do almost the same thing - snare and damage on a long cast. You think they are going to leave flamestrike snare as is? I sincerely doubt this
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  4. #184
    I want Righteousness Fury back as a Ret Raladin so I can tank better as Ret. I want Mindflay as a Disc Priest.

    I just want to play may class in my own way. I like to do this and that but since this is prot only and that is ret only then I can't do it.

    I'm fine with 3 or 4 specs (shockadin?) that's optimal and strong (like those we have now) as a Paladin but I want to play something inbetween, to experiment. The experiment will most likely be suboptimal but that's fine, I can play it while I solo or in groups of friends or just to challange my self to perform well enough with it.

    Use the highway which is fast and efficient or use a smaller way which takes a while longer but also gives you a pleasing view. Currently the only option I have is the highway, talents, Azerite Powers and Essences only represent which car I use on the highway.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  5. #185
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    I, personally, hope they won't try to push out of theme abilities and shit onto well defined specs.

    As in, I like that Destruction is all about Fire, Chaos and focused on nukes. I certainly don't want to see Corruption or shit like that suddenly be part of its priority list. So yes, I like that there is this strong distinction for Warlocks where there is a nuking spec, pet spec and dot spec and hope it stays like that.

  6. #186
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    me? it was shit i play to be a warrior, not to be "fury" or "arms", i play to be a shaman a mage, not specs

    specs are just that, you specialize in something, not an entire different class, it is a hell to balance and other specs always get more than others

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It's because you think you are right just because blizzard "agree" with you. They are not changing classes as much as you think. They are adding stuff back to the classes to bring it back a little from spec identity, but they don't think their class design in Legion sucked, just that they went a bit too far on specs. They just roll back a bit on specs because of this a little coming in Shadowlands. You say that class design was criticized heavily in Legion. You want to think that, but the complaints then compared to in BfA where they removed artifact spells, legendaries effects while changing the GCD was siginificantly lower. If it was such a huge flaw in Legion, they would have done this in BfA. The real complaints is about gameplay feels slow for x class in BfA. Class design vs spec design is of low importance comparing it to the actual gameplay where most complaints come from. And this is why I am sceptical to what this really means for gameplay, because gameplay is whats important. Adding spells that got no use and then gameplay still feels out of place is what we can end up with. That's what should bother us, not class vs spec design, which is very opinionated.

    It's important to note that most things they give us back are either very situational or things that is a core thing, like paladins aura. Now paladins have auras as well, just more spec spesifics. Majority doesn't necessarily think that spec design is bad, just many might believe having something for the whole class is important. An arcane mage will keep using arcane spells for 99% of the time. Blizzard are adding things back because they agree that they went a bit too far on specs, yes Ion has said a bit at least a couple of times, not that they failed like some people read into it.
    It seems like you don't understand how Blizzard works, they never go back on an idea unless they can't find a way to make it palatable. It's been two expansions and they can't make the 'spec identity' focus work and everyone fucking hates it, thus they're changing direction.
    Secondly, I'm sure you speak for everyone that Legion overhauls were the second coming of Christ, I am sure that Survival Hunters and Shadowpriests everywhere were delighted that their spec was destroyed.

    The only three specs you can argue were improved in any way, were Arcane mages, UH DK's and fury warriors. Everything else just felt like a colossal downgrade.

    Also, you seem to be under the impression that the spells they showed at Blizzcon were the only class changes we're getting. Strange stance to have when it's over a year until launch and we've yet to even see an Alpha or a Beta.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexplode View Post
    you also need to see it in a pvp perspective or world pve/pvp ie: fire mage uses arcane explotion to try to find stealthies or Coc to kite if a super speedster class clear your nova (feral/ww/sub/dh). PoM baseline for insta polys maybe, all mages using fire blast as it hits hard on a low global cd could be used as a burst extender or finisher.
    Do mages actually need a spell for every situation? Is PVP, especially group PVP, improved if classes can do everything and have no weaknesses?

  9. #189
    "class fantasy" was often used as an excuse to make certain classes shitty at things that every other class was good at.

    Apparently spriest's "class fantasy" was being garbage at everything outside of long single target fights with minimal movement.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I, personally, hope they won't try to push out of theme abilities and shit onto well defined specs.

    As in, I like that Destruction is all about Fire, Chaos and focused on nukes. I certainly don't want to see Corruption or shit like that suddenly be part of its priority list. So yes, I like that there is this strong distinction for Warlocks where there is a nuking spec, pet spec and dot spec and hope it stays like that.
    I don't think there will be stuff like that. Or at least not from what they said sounded like this.

    It appears a lot of it is utility rather than affecting current rotations or something. Like all Pallies getting Auras back (right now only Holy spec has it), auras aren't something you constantly switch, they're like Hunter aspects (if I'm traveling for a while w/no combat -> use Crusader Aura for speed boost, etc).

    For Warlocks specifically, they showed bringing a lot of the utility curses back, which are very nice. You might just get to put a curse of +fire dmg or something on an enemy, but Warlock curses are also something that's not spammed but typically last for an encounter.

    Same with their example of all Rogues getting poisons back. What they'll probably do is just make Assassin spec poisons more buffed if one chooses that spec (or even unlock unique poisons), but all rogues having access to the basic kit poisons is really nice for utility.

    Overall, all the examples shown don't really seem to touch core rotations of a spec. But to be fair, we'll have to see it in practice. I'm just saying from what they've shown so far, a lot of it doesn't touch spec rotations.

  11. #191
    I love that assassination plays completely different from outlaw. But on the other hand. Im a rogue killing my enemies with poisons and as soon as i put down my daggers and take up my swords: po poi.. poisen. Poison? whats that?

    Makes no sense

  12. #192
    I think class and spec fantasy are both important. Some classes may have slit a bit too far into spec fantasy and taken away a few things that should have stayed at the class level, so maybe the game needs a few tweaks toward the class level, but IMO not a huge overhaul.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ancient One View Post
    i know, right? damn, these 2 expansions have been quite fun to play, every spec felt different from the others, unlike some years ago.
    And yet you have non-stop whining about how classes play out and are 'not fun' at all... and new threads about it every day. "blizzard ruined every classsss"

    Ironic i'd say. I do agree with you, i think the classes are in a very good spot in regards to their gameplay, and i hope that adding some unpruned abilities will actually improve it, and not hinder it.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    It seems like you don't understand how Blizzard works, they never go back on an idea unless they can't find a way to make it palatable. It's been two expansions and they can't make the 'spec identity' focus work and everyone fucking hates it, thus they're changing direction.
    Secondly, I'm sure you speak for everyone that Legion overhauls were the second coming of Christ, I am sure that Survival Hunters and Shadowpriests everywhere were delighted that their spec was destroyed.

    The only three specs you can argue were improved in any way, were Arcane mages, UH DK's and fury warriors. Everything else just felt like a colossal downgrade.

    Also, you seem to be under the impression that the spells they showed at Blizzcon were the only class changes we're getting. Strange stance to have when it's over a year until launch and we've yet to even see an Alpha or a Beta.
    I understand blizzard just as much as you, what a statement to make. Everyone does not hate it, you do, and some others do, but this thread alone should tell you that you are not right about this. You think they are changing direction, they are merely adding some abilities back. They said there wouldn't be any major overhaul. It's funny how you think I think I am speaking for everyone when you try to put your single opinion down peoples throat. If you think they are changing stuff completely, you'll be disappointed. They are not even going away from Survival Melee Hunter which you seems to be against. And believe it or not, Shadow Priests in Legion was a popular spec.

    Lots of people loved the design in Legion, but not in BfA because for specs in Legion they pruned class abilities, but added spec abilities. While in BfA they pruned specs again, resulting in a bigger loss compared to going from WoD to Legion. Because in Legion they added stuff for each spec. Which is quite different from what they did from Legion to BfA. It seems you don't get this. The difference in the amount of complaints in BfA about gameplay vs Legion is rather big.

    I can argue for every spec, why, so because you only like three specs then everyone else loved it too? Your reasoning if baffling. Look at Arcane now, one of the fewest specs played in BfA. I mean, I love Arcane, I am Arcane Mage at heart, but I can easily see why people didn't like it in Legion or BfA.

    And no, your impression is wrong. Which is why I have stated at least two times in this thread alone that I am sceptical, but that we'll have to see what they do with the abilities that comes back, and what they are gonna do with them. It seems after all, I know blizzard a lot more than you. I could sum your post here with wrong, wrong and wrong. Your opinion is just that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Ironic i'd say. I do agree with you, i think the classes are in a very good spot in regards to their gameplay, and i hope that adding some unpruned abilities will actually improve it, and not hinder it.
    This is what I hope too. After all, it's the most important part, not what's best of Class or Spec design.

  15. #195
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    Spec identity turned 12 classes into 36. Who actually was against this? Were people asking Blizzard to give this up?

    I can understand some people not liking the identity Blizz chose for some specs, like losing 2H Frost or ranged Survival specs... but we gained a ton of replayability from it.

    Are we going to lose our 32 unique specs as a result of this "depruning"?
    lol

    They didn't turn 12 classes into 36. They turned 12 classes into 4 with 36 different colors / animations to choose from.

    Retail has become so homogenized that the 4 classes are tank, heal, rdps, and mdps. They all function pretty close to the same, each having AoE, single target, cc, and self-heal / barrier that just work slightly different from each other.

    Classic has a solid 9 classes with several of them that work quite differently based on focus / spec. A bear tank is substantially different from a pally tank or warrior tank. The same is true across the board in Classic.

    So, ultimately, most weren't actually against spec identity. Many of us simply recognized that spec identity actually means a *lot* less than Blizz would like you to believe.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    I love that assassination plays completely different from outlaw. But on the other hand. Im a rogue killing my enemies with poisons and as soon as i put down my daggers and take up my swords: po poi.. poisen. Poison? whats that?

    Makes no sense
    and now every single outlaw/shadow ability will be weaker because they have to take to account using poisons when balansing, wich in turn will make poisons mandatory, wich in turn will take away from assasination unique playstyle ...

  17. #197
    As an alt-holic, much preferred having what felt like 36 classes than 12. Why does a fire mage need frostbolt? This is just something else that'll drive me away even faster.

  18. #198
    Yeah the class over spec thing is what dealbreaks Shadowlands for me.
    I think the fact that they tied it to the "unpruning" makes it hard to argue against -- see posts like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    ...this site never fails to amaze me

    MMO Champion for the last 5 Years: AMG the pruning is terrible everyone sucks EVERYTHING Sucks

    Blizz: WE ARE REMOVING PRUNING

    MMO Champion now: AMG THEY ARE REMOVING THE PRUNING WTF BLIZZ WHY DO I NEED FROSTBOLT AS A MAGE TAKE BACK EYES OF THE BEAST GAME RUINED
    But in reality, they aren't the same thing at all. Giving Paladins auras back is not the same thing as giving Frostbolt to Fire Mages. I think part of this is just class thematic in general -- as an example, Outlaw is currently balanced around the mobility tools and crowd control they currently have. They don't need poisons, and they have tools that replace them. Pirates don't have anything to do with poison. Blizzard says "Doesn't that suck? You lost that Rogue feel." but that's what Combat/Outlaw has always been, trading away the traditional rogue elements to be a leather-warrior of x variety. Giving them back poisons likely means the removal of the other tools, and for what? A thematic loss to the spec? Just so that you can say "Look! All Rogues have poisons!"

    That, to me, is more offensive than something as universal as Curses for Warlocks or Auras for Paladins, but only because their thematics haven't been peeled apart as hard as Rogue or Mages have. If there was a Void Paladin spec or something that thematically replaced Retribution, I might be more offended that I'm getting "Auras" back years later, who knows.

    In general though, I don't think the doling out of old class themes actually unprunes anything. Poisons and Auras are click and forgets, Frost Mages will never use Fireball, etc. If your argument is "it gives them tools they didn't have before" like Arcane Explosion for Fire Mages, then I'd just say that they should get something Fire thematic instead of Arcane Explosion -- I agree that the lack of the tool is frustrating, but there's no reason for the tool itself to not be themed for the spec it's going to. I won't use a buzz word like homogeny but the concept definitely comes into play to some degree.

    If Blizzard gives me some thematic replacements through glyphs or talents, whatever, no harm done. Blizzard is definitely setting up for a more hands-off approach with WoW though, similar to what they did with HotS, which makes me think their goal is to put in as little effort as possible. They haven't made glyphs an actual thing in a long time, they're removing spec specific elements and retooling them to be the same across the classes, they're not doing any extensive work on talents, I don't know -- it's not looking good for sure.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by brt2pp View Post
    and now every single outlaw/shadow ability will be weaker because they have to take to account using poisons when balansing, wich in turn will make poisons mandatory, wich in turn will take away from assasination unique playstyle ...
    On a high level spec concept, I always saw Assassin Rogues as the poison dot dmg dealers, Outlaw as the proc-based rogues, and Subtlety highly mobile/shadow dmg/burst heavy rogues.

    I feel like those ideals will still stay intact.

    Like all paladins getting auras back instead of only Holy having it. The Auras themselves don't define the specs.

    For Assassin Rogues, sure they're the only ones using poisons now (this is the mistake Blizzard is rectifying), but Assassin Rogues do most of their dmg through their DoT abilities <- I feel that's more of the identity of their spec. Blizzard just choose the theme of poisons to dress that up.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    ...this site never fails to amaze me

    MMO Champion for the last 5 Years: AMG the pruning is terrible everyone sucks EVERYTHING Sucks

    Blizz: WE ARE REMOVING PRUNING

    MMO Champion now: AMG THEY ARE REMOVING THE PRUNING WTF BLIZZ WHY DO I NEED FROSTBOLT AS A MAGE TAKE BACK EYES OF THE BEAST GAME RUINED
    Its almost like no matter what blizzard does people will be upset...

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