Were there actually people who didn't like spec identity?

[Nomads]

I always preferred each spec being unique. With specs like Shadow, they're very distinct from the other Priest specs, but now it'll be more muddled together.

We've seen plenty of examples of mages, DKs, druids, and even shamans that focus on one spec in lore, as well.
-Acherus has always had different instructors that teach the different specs.
-Jaina was always a Frost mage, Khadgar was always an Arcane mage, and Aethas was always a Fire mage - now players will have a harder time embodying that if they're all just "mages" despite being in their desired spec.
-Thrall was always enhancement, and we've seen plenty of resto shamans in lore.
-Druids have always been heavily separated for each spec in lore, because there are tons of different orders of druids for each form, in every druidic culture. It doesn't make sense lore-wise (or gameplay-wise) to have them be muddled together as "eh, you're a druid!" In fact, people have asked for more options for their druid forms - that was one of the most successful Legion artifacts for that reason.
-Plenty of warriors use a shield, some use two big weapons, and some are blademasters in lore. Plenty of people have asked for Blademasters to be their own spec or class, because they specifically wanted that more singled out, as opposed to being more muddled with the other specs.

There are some classes, like DH or rogue, that have smaller differences in lore, but should still be considered distinct. Some rogues are more like thugs, some are assassins/ninjas, and many have been pirates. Vengeance is a relatively new idea in lore, but that's all the more reason to really make it distinct in my opinion. Likewise, with Paladins, not all are the same, since we see plenty that use different weapons, tomes, or spells.

I don't know, it just seems like a silly change that they will eventually change back again. The expansion afterward they'll say something like "We've moved too far away from spec identity - the next expansion 'Into the Voidiverse' will focus much more on spec, rather than class! Introducing new artifacts!"

This pretty much sums up my thinking as well. I've loved my identity of a fire mage for the last two expansions, and I mained my mage since Vanila...

I never felt bad about losing abilities I rarely used. I'm really hoping they don't go too far in the other direction with this pendulum swing because Shadowlands is shaping up to be exactly the type of expansion I love to play in most other ways.

[Malix Farwin]

I disagree that mages won't use cross spec spells. A frost or arcane mage might use fire blast in PVP because it is an instant cast spell and can be cast on the run; a fire or arcane mage might use frost bolt because of the slow; a frost or fire mage might use arcane explosion because it is instant cast AOE and can be cast on the run. Perhaps these are only situational abilities, but they could see legit use.

And, if a fire mage can't use frost bolt because of spec identity, why can they open portals and cast time warp?

A frost mage will opt intsead to use a ice lance instead because it scales with thier passives and mastery. A fire mage/arcane mage will not be casting frost bolt because the slow got massively nerfed due to mythic+ you are better off using yout spec spell that scale with your traits/passives/kit. Have other elemental spells fill a niche in world lvling at best.

P.S. Mages have been running Frost for PvP since Vanilla why would they suddenly switch to fire/arcane.

[Powerogue]

I thought it was great. Rogues in particular had a nice even spread of their most useful abilities to the classes that would get the most use out of them. Gouge no longer being negated by poisons and bleeds was a great idea. It also meant a lot more classes and specs were accessible to me having never played them before , since legion was the big Alt Expansion. I found a lot of new classes I really loved, like every spec of monk, fire/frost mages, ret paladins, dps demon hunters, etc.

The only pruning I didn't like was BM hunters feeling too barebone in Legion (the new bleed ability helped) and the loss of artifact abilities in BFA.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Are you telling me you didn't suffer from the torment that was the removal of Heroic Strike? Sit the hell down. No. I hated "specc identity." Removing poisons from all rogue speccs made me feel like I wasn't a rogue anymore. I'd rather a bloat of abilities with each specc focusing on certain ones than removin what was part of the class itself for years.

https://www.heroicstrike.org/

Never forget.

[Kendros]

Are you telling me you didn't suffer from the torment that was the removal of Heroic Strike? Sit the hell down. No. I hated "specc identity." Removing poisons from all rogue speccs made me feel like I wasn't a rogue anymore. I'd rather a bloat of abilities with each specc focusing on certain ones than removin what was part of the class itself for years.

https://www.heroicstrike.org/

Never forget.

Poisons and totems returning for all specs is nice, they can be used by all specs equaly, now giving fire mage a frost damaging spell or a frost DK unholy damaging spells is just dumb and just bloat the spell book, the same for super niche abilities, we dont need em just for the sake of Role playing. Go pay DnD if you want to roleplay. They need to select better what is being added back.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Poisons and totems returning for all specs is nice, they can be used by all specs equaly, now giving fire mage a frost damaging spell or a frost DK unholy damaging spells is just dumb and just bloat the spell book, the same for super niche abilities, we dont need em just for the sake of Role playing. Go pay DnD if you want to roleplay. They need to select better what is being added back.

I guess calling WoW an MMORPG is a bad thing? Oh dear. Guess we better tell Blizzard that we don't want fun back.

[Gungnir]

I understand blizzard just as much as you, what a statement to make. Everyone does not hate it, you do, and some others do, but this thread alone should tell you that you are not right about this.

Clearly you do not, and MMO-Champ is but a blip on the radar.
They recieved enough feedback to forcibly go back on their own decision, that should tell you enough about how 'welcomed' spec design was.

You think they are changing direction, they are merely adding some abilities back.

We've had a single announcement of what they plan to do, we haven't seen what they've actually done yet and you speak as if you know what they're planning.
Yikes, you really do believe that, don't you?

They said there wouldn't be any major overhaul. It's funny how you think I think I am speaking for everyone when you try to put your single opinion down peoples throat. If you think they are changing stuff completely, you'll be disappointed. They are not even going away from Survival Melee Hunter which you seems to be against. And believe it or not, Shadow Priests in Legion was a popular spec.

My 'single opinion' echoes what Blizzard seem to think, which weighs a lot more than your opinion.
Also, please show me the metrics where people LIKED shadowpriest in Legion. Don't confuse 'popular' with 'horrendously overpowered when gaming a certain talent'.

Lots of people loved the design in Legion, but not in BfA because for specs in Legion they pruned class abilities, but added spec abilities. While in BfA they pruned specs again, resulting in a bigger loss compared to going from WoD to Legion. Because in Legion they added stuff for each spec. Which is quite different from what they did from Legion to BfA. It seems you don't get this. The difference in the amount of complaints in BfA about gameplay vs Legion is rather big.

Yeah, I'm sure those 'lots of people' are the majority in this case, because we can clearly see Blizzard doubling down on spec identity.
Oh what's that, they aren't? WELL I'LL BE DAMNED.

What you don't seem to get is that Legion destroyed the vast majority of the specs. I'm sure all the Survival Hunters, Shadowpriests and Outlaw rogues cherished the fact that their no longer even resembled what they've been playing for the last 12 years.

I can argue for every spec, why, so because you only like three specs then everyone else loved it too? Your reasoning if baffling. Look at Arcane now, one of the fewest specs played in BfA. I mean, I love Arcane, I am Arcane Mage at heart, but I can easily see why people didn't like it in Legion or BfA.

Nice assumption, I'm sure you know more about me than I do, which is obviously why you're trying to insinuate that.
Surely this is the peak of conversational ability when you can't find a decent argument to save your life so you jump to insinuating that you know the other person to try to make your critically lacking 'argument' appear to hold any weight.

Cute.

And no, your impression is wrong. Which is why I have stated at least two times in this thread alone that I am sceptical, but that we'll have to see what they do with the abilities that comes back, and what they are gonna do with them. It seems after all, I know blizzard a lot more than you. I could sum your post here with wrong, wrong and wrong. Your opinion is just that.

'MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS BECAUSE BLIZZARD LISTENS TO THE MAJORITY' says the man desperately clinging on to spec identity when Blizzard is clearly moving in another direction.

Also regarding the bolded part, I've met a few whiny manchildren in my day but you really do take the cake.
Not only can you not present a coherent argument that has any argumentative points, but you also devolve into throwing a shitfit and trying to insinuate that you are somehow in the right when BLIZZARD THEMSELVES DISAGREE WITH YOU.
Fuck you're a special duck.

[shoegazing]

Spec identity turned 12 classes into 36. Who actually was against this? Were people asking Blizzard to give this up?

I can understand some people not liking the identity Blizz chose for some specs, like losing 2H Frost or ranged Survival specs... but we gained a ton of replayability from it.

Are we going to lose our 36 unique specs as a result of this "depruning"?

So called "Spec Identity" is UTTER GARBAGE that RUINED the Subtlety Rogue I have mained since 2005

I /spit on the entire concept of spec identity because the "Shadowblade" version of Subtlety is NOT MY ROGUE

[Daymanmb]

Never understood the desire to go back to an inflated spellbook with spells you don't use. What is the point of having fireball as a frost mage?

Well, the idea was that some things were immune to frost damage so youd need something other than frost spells.. Also, you might be a mage specialized in frost but that doesnt mean you forget baseline mage spells like fireball and arcane missles..

[DotEleven]

Plenty of people. Spec identity is nice, but you should feel like a Paladin speccing into Holy or a Hunter speccing into Beast-mastery. You should still feel like that other guy who's in your class is similar to you. Not the same, but similar.

[shoegazing]

Well, the idea was that some things were immune to frost damage so youd need something other than frost spells.. Also, you might be a mage specialized in frost but that doesnt mean you forget baseline mage spells like fireball and arcane missles..

Also it was satisfying and useful to bait noobs into interrupting you on the wrong school in PvP

[threads]

spec identity sucked. ruined hunters. ruined rogues. turned shadow into some tentacle shit. frost dk felt more like a ice warrior than a death knight. almost every rotation turned into builder/spender with some recolored fury bar or combo point system.

[Nomads]

Plenty of people. Spec identity is nice, but you should feel like a Paladin speccing into Holy or a Hunter speccing into Beast-mastery. You should still feel like that other guy who's in your class is similar to you. Not the same, but similar.

Why though? What's the point of that? Just because it used to be that way? Then maybe Classic is more to your liking...

There's no secret that there are very different types of archers in this game. There are the beast masters who rely on their pets entirely, there are the rangers like Alleria, there are the dwarven riflemen we've seen since WC3, and there are the melee pet tamers like Rexxar... these shouldn't "feel similar" to each other in any way other than they are ranged damage dealers... this is why spec identity is better than class identity.

[ExPeRiEnCeS]

The un-pruning sounds like a win-win to me.

For the folks that wanted the "Class Identity" back - they're getting it back.

For the folks who don't want it. Don't pull those spells/abilities out of the spell book and nothing will have changed.

[Absintheminded]

The term itself "spec identity" is bullshit. Specs already and have always had identity. The only difference is giving back baseline abilities that classes shouldn't just forget based on specialization. Just urks me, that's all.

Edit: if Blizzard wants to give specializations *more* identity, then undo all homogenisation, and bring back buffs and utility that were based on spec.

[derpkitteh]

in some cases, it was bad. in others, it was good.

mage shouldn't have been as restricted, you're an archmage, using all schools of magic is what you do.

but for classes like rogue? having spec identity is the only interesting thing about a rogue. the fact they're moving away from shadowy powers on sub rogue is just an awful change that will only hurt subtlety. having shitty gameplay didn't mean the thematics of the spec had to change.

[DotEleven]

Why though? What's the point of that? Just because it used to be that way? Then maybe Classic is more to your liking...

There's no secret that there are very different types of archers in this game. There are the beast masters who rely on their pets entirely, there are the rangers like Alleria, there are the dwarven riflemen we've seen since WC3, and there are the melee pet tamers like Rexxar... these shouldn't "feel similar" to each other in any way other than they are ranged damage dealers... this is why spec identity is better than class identity.

Because it gives a feeling of unity among the class and makes it feel like a class is actually a class.

You can still have spec identity while having class identity. You seem to think it's one or the other. The thing is, I could make 10 specs that all played different and call them a "class" but they wouldn't feel like they belong together. That's what they want to get back to.

I mean, let's imagine it this way. Shamans always a good one to use.

Shamans got pretty nice class identity since everything is about the use of the elements. You have the specs casting earth based, lightning based, and fire based
spells with water for healing. Enhancement is about reinforcing your martial prowess with them, elemental is about using the elements to strike your foes and restoration is about healing it. Now instead we're going to completely separate them. Only Enhancement gets Wind/lightning based attacks. Only Elemental gets fire based attacks. Only Restoration gets healing based. Now they're still kinda close and they all belong to the same class, but you don't feel like a Shaman specializing in your field, you are specifically that type of shaman. Like I said, there's a difference between being a Paladin specced into Holy and specifically being a Holy Paladin. One implies you can at least perform the other actions of a paladin, the other feels like you have no connection to them besides the name.

[FlubberPuddy]

Dragon's Breath. =P Plus, they can cast while moving, and get speed boosts on hit. Besides it's Fire, realistically, how is fire supposed to slow someone aside from the blastwave shock?

IIRC, you were asking why would a fire mage want frostbolt. That's a ranged ability that can slow enemy, giving time for Fire abilities to crit/proc.

Dragon's Breath is a close range cone AoE right? You're still likely to get damaged using it.

Also, "how is fire supposed to slow someone" I think that's why an ability like frostbolt is coming back.

Specializations over the years moved away from being "specializations" and suddenly became a "class" on their own. These abilities coming back are an effort to relegate specs to exactly what they should be "a focus" rather than a completely defined "class".

I would expect the Fire specced Mage to have better Fire abilities than a Frost specced Mage. But both having mage utility abilities should be par for the course.

[Aggrophobic]

A lot of them had more PvP/niche solo questing use than raiding, but in PvP they would get frequent use. Also, the shift in class design occurred when they started removing abilities; readding them is a step back toward more complete kits for classes.

No, it's really not a step back unless they redesign the classes.
Also, with PvP talents PvP is complex enough and adding back one spell just as they take away another will not make PvP any more exiting.

[Kyphael]

IIRC, you were asking why would a fire mage want frostbolt. That's a ranged ability that can slow enemy, giving time for Fire abilities to crit/proc.

Dragon's Breath is a close range cone AoE right? You're still likely to get damaged using it.

Also, "how is fire supposed to slow someone" I think that's why an ability like frostbolt is coming back.

Specializations over the years moved away from being "specializations" and suddenly became a "class" on their own. These abilities coming back are an effort to relegate specs to exactly what they should be "a focus" rather than a completely defined "class".

I would expect the Fire specced Mage to have better Fire abilities than a Frost specced Mage. But both having mage utility abilities should be par for the course.

Noted, I guess as an alt-holic, it's why I've been able to actually play like 36 characters and have fun doing it, but with these changes I'll be back to playing 12 or 14.