"I will set us all free". What does that mean?

[Aucald]

No. Cairne died after Sylvanas, he manifests in the Tauren heritage questline when logic dictates his spirit should be confied to the Maw from which nothing escapes.

There's no real way for us to know that. Cairne died between WotLK and Cata, some time ago, and we don't really know when the "machinery of Death" broke down and started consigning souls to the Maw by default. We know it was broken as of the Battle of Thorns and the burning of Teldrassil, but not exactly when before that. There's also many, many ways in which souls could avoid consignment to the Shadowlands (and thus the Maw) entirely. We see evidence of that with souls drawn to Bwonsamdi's temple complex post-Teldrassil (when we know Death itself was broken), with ghosts and specters of the Drust, and so on. The Maw is not an absolute destination and it's just that now if you aren't somehow bound to the physical world as a ghost, or snapped up by another power like Bwonsamdi or Odyn, you go to the Shadowlands and thus the Maw.

[Malacrass]

It's probably going to be a mix of "I don't want to end up in an eternal hell of nothingness" and "you shouldn't want to either".

She wants to break the wheel. All her atrocities don't matter in the grand scheme of things if death itself has no consequences anymore (or consequences that aren't considered awful).

I mean come on, you can smell the redemption twist from a mile away.

[Varodoc]

It's probably going to be a mix of "I don't want to end up in an eternal hell of nothingness" and "you shouldn't want to either".

She wants to break the wheel. All her atrocities don't matter in the grand scheme of things if death itself has no consequences anymore (or consequences that aren't considered awful).

I mean come on, you can smell the redemption twist from a mile away.

It's difficult to smell it with all the generic evil music that plays whenever she is on screen. But sure.

There's no real way for us to know that. Cairne died between WotLK and Cata, some time ago, and we don't really know when the "machinery of Death" broke down and started consigning souls to the Maw by default. We know it was broken as of the Battle of Thorns and the burning of Teldrassil, but not exactly when before that. There's also many, many ways in which souls could avoid consignment to the Shadowlands (and thus the Maw) entirely. We see evidence of that with souls drawn to Bwonsamdi's temple complex post-Teldrassil (when we know Death itself was broken), with ghosts and specters of the Drust, and so on. The Maw is not an absolute destination and it's just that now if you aren't somehow bound to the physical world as a ghost, or snapped up by another power like Bwonsamdi or Odyn, you go to the Shadowlands and thus the Maw.

Cairne is a pretty normal warrior with no supernatural ability, I don't see how he could avoid the Maw or why someone should seek to save him from that suffering (it's not like he specifically should be a priority). Furthermore, I believe Cairne mentions specifically that he can't linger for long because he has to return to the Shadowlands (so again, that implies he went to the Shadowlands but wasn't assigned to the Maw).

[Aucald]

Cairne is a pretty normal warrior with no supernatural ability, I don't see how he could avoid the Maw or why someone should seek to save him from that suffering (it's not like he specifically should be a priority). Furthermore, I believe Cairne mentions specifically that he can't linger for long because he has to return to the Shadowlands (so again, that implies he went to the Shadowlands but wasn't assigned to the Maw).

I mean more that when Cairne died, it's impossible to know if the machinery of Death was broken - so it's possible that his soul wasn't sent straight to the Maw but instead traveled wherever it was supposed to in his personal afterlife scenario (e.g. wherever the Arbiter assigned him). Also, the Shaman who oversaw Cairne's funerary rites could've had some influence on his afterlife state as well.

[Reyuna]

"He will learn, no king rules forever."

- Yogg Saron.

A decades worth of foresight.

[Fewane]

Her ending up in the Maw actually points out that her suicide happened after the "death machine got broken" event. There is absolutly no reason as to why she would end up there, if people like Kael'thas didn't end up there.

Or she was specifically pulled to the Maw even while the "death machine" worked to manipulate her towards going down the road she has gone.

[Varodoc]

I mean more that when Cairne died, it's impossible to know if the machinery of Death was broken - so it's possible that his soul wasn't sent straight to the Maw but instead traveled wherever it was supposed to in his personal afterlife scenario (e.g. wherever the Arbiter assigned him). Also, the Shaman who oversaw Cairne's funerary rites could've had some influence on his afterlife state as well.

But that's my point. Cairne not being in the Maw heavily points that the machinery didn't broke until after the beginning of Cataclysm, so Sylvanas going to the Maw was most likely the Arbiter's decision and not the malfunctioning of the machine.

As for why the Arbiter decided to send Sylvanas to the Maw, well really she had her own reasons which will probably be revealed. Perhaps she thought Sylvanas was too consumed by vengeance and hatred to be redeemed, whereas she thought Kael'thas, who was still driven by the noble desire of saving his people, could find redemption.

[Kumorii]

Isn’t that what she is doing though? Wanting to be immortal and rule azeroth without anyone trying to usurp her.

I don't think Sylvanas have shown much affection to rule anything. She didn't even want to be Warchief and now she wants to rule Azeroth?

[Aucald]

But that's my point. Cairne not being in the Maw heavily points that the machinery didn't broke until after the beginning of Cataclysm, so Sylvanas going to the Maw was most likely the Arbiter's decision and not the malfunctioning of the machine.

As for why the Arbiter decided to send Sylvanas to the Maw, well really she had her own reasons which will probably be revealed. Perhaps she thought Sylvanas was too consumed by vengeance and hatred to be redeemed, whereas the thought Kael'thas, who was still driven by the noble desire of saving his people, could find redemption.

I don't disagree with that assessment, I just think it's an unknown quantity. We don't really know if Sylvanas went to the Maw, either; the place she describes is pretty nebulous and may not be an area of the Shadowlands we see in Shadowlands proper, or at all based on her nature as an undead being caught in the web of the Val'kyr who are "judging" her. She neither encounters the Jailer or the Arbiter specifically, nor sees any part of the Shadowlands we now have knowledge of. She could well have gone straight to the Maw due to the Jailer's influence, or she could've been suspended in some state due to the Val'kyr's influence, or it could've been something altogether else.

[Malacrass]

It's difficult to smell it with all the generic evil music that plays whenever she is on screen. But sure.

All the generic evil music makes it even more obvious.

I could understand people buying it if it weren't for the fact that the writers don't consider Sylvanas another Garrosh, while she's doing exactly what Garrosh did times 10. Overtaking the Horde, powertripping, killing civilians, purging subfactions within the Horde, infused by another god-like entity.

So there must be a twist coming that may not excuse all of the above, but at least make sense to the audience why she isn't another Garrosh. The Shadowlands and the established rules of the afterlife could explain her motives really well, especially with the "I will free you all" line. Death isn't that bad if there is an afterlife that isn't an all-consuming void or a horrific nightmare on loop.

I mean don't get me wrong, this is all really awful storytelling, even for MMO standards, but I'm saying don't throw a tantrum if Sylvanas gets semi-redeemed due to having "good intentions".

[Varodoc]

All the generic evil music makes it even more obvious.

I could understand people buying it if it weren't for the fact that the writers don't consider Sylvanas another Garrosh, while she's doing exactly what Garrosh did times 10. Overtaking the Horde, powertripping, killing civilians, purging subfactions within the Horde, infused by another god-like entity.

So there must be a twist coming that may not excuse all of the above, but at least make sense to the audience why she isn't another Garrosh. The Shadowlands and the established rules of the afterlife could explain her motives really well, especially with the "I will free you all" line. Death isn't that bad if there is an afterlife that isn't an all-consuming void or a horrific nightmare on loop.

I mean don't get me wrong, this is all really awful storytelling, even for MMO standards, but I'm saying don't throw a tantrum if Sylvanas gets semi-redeemed due to having "good intentions".

I won't throw a tantrum, when did I ever say that? I'd be kind of happy because at least she'd fuck off never to be seen again.

[Malacrass]

I won't throw a tantrum, when did I ever say that? I'd be kind of happy because at least she'd fuck off never to be seen again.

This wasn't directed at you, your post is just the anchor for the discussion.

But I can already see how the community will react when Sylvanas gets her semi-redemption and how awful it is. Not saying it wont be, but to me it just seems so obvious what they are trying to do here.

[Varodoc]

This wasn't directed at you, your post is just the anchor for the discussion.

But I can already see how the community will react when Sylvanas gets her semi-redemption and how awful it is. Not saying it wont be, but to me it just seems so obvious what they are trying to do here.

To me it doesn't. What's the point of turning Sylvanas into Kerrigan 2.0 and not Illidan? Remember when everyone thought Illidan was getting that arc, only for Blizzard to throw a curveball at us by having him destroy Xe'ra?

Let alone the fact that the message of Warcraft is that the fate of mortals was never in the hands of prophecies and that only all mortals together can save each other, there cannot be a chosen one. That's why I just find it very unlikely Blizzard will ever make a Kerrigan 2.0 arc for a Warcraft character. Warcraft just isn't Starcraft as far as prophecies and chosen ones are concerned.

I find it much more likely that Sylvanas is the Gul'dan or WoD Garrosh of this expansion.

[Seradi]

I feel like maybe she could just be referring to Undead, given who she was talking to and where she was. When one of the Dark Rangers dies in the Alliance war campaign she says “is this the darkness Sylvanas tried to save us from?” Perhaps former Scourge are either tied to Arthas in the Maw or destined to end up there and Sylvanas’ main goal is to destroy that connection or even the Maw itself.

[Malacrass]

To me it doesn't. What's the point of turning Sylvanas into Kerrigan 2.0 and not Illidan? Remember when everyone thought Illidan was getting that arc, only for Blizzard to throw a curveball at us by having him destroy Xe'ra?

Exactly this is going to happen here. Windchime talks all day about the chosen one. Turns out the chosen one kills the windchime.
Sylvanas acts like Garrosh on crack all expansion. Turns out there are sophisticated reasons behind all the awful shit she's done.

That's why I just find it very unlikely Blizzard will ever make a Kerrigan 2.0 arc for a Warcraft character. Warcraft just isn't Starcraft as far as prophecies and chosen ones are concerned.

I'm not saying she will be a heroic Kerrigan, even though that isn't completely off the table either. I'm saying they will at the very least semi-redeem her by making people comprehend her motives.

[valax]

Serious question and i want straight answer.

Before we thought Sylvanas basically wants to kill everyone so everyone would be dead and turned into Forsaken.

Now the question is why she even opened the SL for everyone to come inside.

Is that because she wants free all souls out of the Maw and SL, basically reviving everyone?

Is that because that way it would be easier to kill us all?

Or is that because she wants us all dead and then deal with the Maw and SL so all our souls will be brought back to corpses, and we all will effectively become undead?

One thing im sure of - she doesnt plan to be the Death's ally. She gonna cuck the Maw, the SL, the Jailor, the Death to make everyone's souls return to the corpses.

I think the premise is that all souls are denied their "afterlife" and instead end up directly in the maw to feed some death deity's power (and hers too it seems) Seeing as the jailer appears to be the one to be jailed she took matters on her own hands.
We'll chase her in the shadowlands only to learn that she's been working for a greater good all along ( reviving the dead, especially teldrassil victims is a possibility for the clichè redemption arc, and that would really piss off saurfang too lmao) .
Sylvanas is WoW one of the franchise anti-hero , and the writers love that shit.. see Illidan for reference

[Malacrass]

I hate when writers do this, though.

If her goal is something potentially positive or understandable, then have her just fucking say it.

This thing that writers do where they have a character go around being a terrible asshole to everyone and showing no redeeming qualities whatsoever or even a hint of reason to their actions...BUT OH WAIT, at the very end they were actually playing 27-dimensional-chess to save all the orphans and just couldn't tell anyone! That's dumb. That's not strong writing or good character development, it's just "WAT A TWEEST!!" level nonsense for the sake of it.

It's why stuff like Ellisande's dialog makes no sense at the end of the fight. If she wasn't actually an evil, oppressive asshole in league with the Legion and was actually just secretly trying to save her people with her fortune telling skills, then why did she treat her people like she hated them all along? It's nonsense.

Yep yep.

I assume they will simply treat it as an issue that is literally larger than life. No one would have believed her if she explained her reasons, especially not the Taurens and Orcs who value the natural circle of life. I think she's even the only one who experienced what happens when you die and return. Everyone else either stayed dead or had a memory wipe, I think. Not counting the special demon shit going on, of course.
Sylvanas just knows so much more than your average character, simply through her Banshee/Valkyr/Helia connections. Overwhelming knowledge that should be hard to comprehend, so hard that it makes sense to not even try to convince others because it's too much to handle. Especially when various religions also play a role that you would have to argue against.


"Hey bros, I want to shatter the wheel of life and death, the void and the afterlife, and for that a ton of people have to die first. And then I, your very trustworthy Banshee Queen, may or may not revive some of you to finish off some more innocent people in order to fuel my special shadow powers! And once that is done I will use my accumlated power to break whatever is holding this awful, awful world together. Things will definitely be great after that. Oh, that cursed old god dagger at my hip? Don't worry, it has nothing to do with all of this. Trust me and die, please."

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Clearly, Sylvanas has been posessed by Grom and he plans to free us all.

[Maxilian]

"He will learn, no king rules forever."

- Yogg Saron.

A decades worth of foresight.

Have in mind, that he was talking about Arthas at the time, as that quote was said as we see a vision of Arthas torturing Bolvar.

[Firefall]

I think that wouldn't be bad. If it is possible to make everyone immortal, why not?

They have a kinda long history in WoW story of saying the undead are unnatural and things like that, and about respecting "nature," and passing weird religious/spiritual judgements. I think they will do that here too if it goes this route.