1. #2481
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Numbers on paper don't always tell the story either, if they did this game would be a LOT fucking easier to predict and bettors would make a lot of money. Yards can be an empty stat as many teams that are good give up garbage 4th quarter yards by the bundle just to end the game faster. Hell stats and analytics tell you that going for it on 4th down and 1 or 2 should be done nearly all the time yet hardly any team does it, the Ravens are starting to do it a lot more which just goes to show how much they are paying attention to what advanced metrics are coming around.

    17 points is more than a bad loss I'd say, that is a near blowout, but really that game was close going into the 4th quarter, it was 24-20 with Baltimore scoring early in the 4th as we all know. Turnovers and when and where they happen are a factor, special teams in some games are a big factor yet don't show up really in box scores that people glance at.

    It would be easy to go on and on but I'm reserving judgement on the Pats and Ravens until I see more from each of them. I feel confident in my Saints in the NFC and that is about it.
    Yeah, I know "numbers on paper don't always tell the story either" ... literally my point. I am arguing against people that are going "LOOK AT THE NUMBERS!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MardestyGSOG View Post
    You’re really not seeing the irony here? Read back over your posts then come back here and read the bolded part lmao
    You should if you think that is ironic. Pointing out where people are ignoring facts isn't the same argument as you bolded. It's ironic to you because you take one fact I am using out of context and turn it around.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-11-07 at 02:55 AM.
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  2. #2482
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yeah, I know "numbers on paper don't always tell the story either" ... literally my point. I am arguing against people that are going "LOOK AT THE NUMBERS!"
    And yet people could spin it around and use very few numbers like points and yards to show teams that have won over the years. I know you pointed out an anomaly with that San Diego team a number of years back, but there are plenty of examples of teams with great yards/points/yards allowed that were good and won playoff games. If it was that easy to use just a few stats or tons of stats to accurately tell us who the better team was, there would be a lot of very rich sports gamblers.

  3. #2483
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    And yet people could spin it around and use very few numbers like points and yards to show teams that have won over the years. I know you pointed out an anomaly with that San Diego team a number of years back, but there are plenty of examples of teams with great yards/points/yards allowed that were good and won playoff games. If it was that easy to use just a few stats or tons of stats to accurately tell us who the better team was, there would be a lot of very rich sports gamblers.
    Points and yards correlate with wins, but they don't cause wins ... if that makes any sense. Teams that tend to lead the league in yards and scoring tend to win games, but not always and sometimes yards are misleading because of the time factor involve. People often stated the Patriots offense wasn't good because it did short passes, but their offense was built for ball and clock control ... they didn't put up points all the time, but they gave time for their defense to rest.

    But, even looking at clock control ... that doesn't tell you much either. You can control the ball for a while, but be helped out because of penalties on the other team, or you could control the ball, while putting yourself in 3rd and long a lot. There are a lot of measures to what makes a team good, and just because a team is good in one or even several doesn't make them good.

    The issue I have is people focus on a statistic when it matters to their argument and dismiss it in another. Look in this topic, the Jets and Dolphins are bad teams yes ... but they are divisional opponents of the Patriots and have more experience against them ... but because they are bad, that doesn't count as a real team for the Patriots to play. But the Steelers without their Pro Bowl Future Hall of Famer QB gets counted as good because hey, it's still the steelers and in division rivals therefor I know their good points and then discounting the Bills as a good team the Patriots played despite the Patriots having known struggles when playing in Buffalo ... etc ... I expect consistency when dealing with arguments.

    If you are going to say that the Patriots had an overrated defense, then it is 100% in line to say the Ravens are an overrated offense. And before someone calls me a hypocrite, I agree the Patriots offense was overrated. But overrated doesn't mean bad, it means overrated. Good things can be overrated. The Patriots defense is good, but it relies way too much on the takeaway.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-11-07 at 03:34 AM.
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  4. #2484
    Immortal Vetali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Man, the hoops being jumped through here to suggest the Ravens aren't an elite team in the AFC are kind of ridiculous.


    No one's saying they're gonna be the #1 seed, or the AFC representative to the Super Bowl, but I think if you're talking about the elite teams in the AFC, you have to mention the Ravens.
    The thing is, there is only 3 top shelf teams in the AFC right now. One has their QB hurt.

    Its just silly to take ride convenient stats to a dick measuring contest at the start of November, when good teams just start showing who they are. First two months of the season are entirely pointless. Even more so in single elimination playoffs. Every team is overrated until they win the super bowl. Chaotic neutral football analysis.

  5. #2485
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Dude, you just stated the Redskins from the NFC East were an AFC Team.
    Meant to say NFL, not AFC. My point still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Points and yards correlate with wins, but they don't cause wins ... if that makes any sense. Teams that tend to lead the league in yards and scoring tend to win games, but not always and sometimes yards are misleading because of the time factor involve. People often stated the Patriots offense wasn't good because it did short passes, but their offense was built for ball and clock control ... they didn't put up points all the time, but they gave time for their defense to rest.

    But, even looking at clock control ... that doesn't tell you much either. You can control the ball for a while, but be helped out because of penalties on the other team, or you could control the ball, while putting yourself in 3rd and long a lot. There are a lot of measures to what makes a team good, and just because a team is good in one or even several doesn't make them good.

    The issue I have is people focus on a statistic when it matters to their argument and dismiss it in another. Look in this topic, the Jets and Dolphins are bad teams yes ... but they are divisional opponents of the Patriots and have more experience against them ... but because they are bad, that doesn't count as a real team for the Patriots to play. But the Steelers without their Pro Bowl Future Hall of Famer QB gets counted as good because hey, it's still the steelers and in division rivals therefor I know their good points and then discounting the Bills as a good team the Patriots played despite the Patriots having known struggles when playing in Buffalo ... etc ... I expect consistency when dealing with arguments.

    If you are going to say that the Patriots had an overrated defense, then it is 100% in line to say the Ravens are an overrated offense. And before someone calls me a hypocrite, I agree the Patriots offense was overrated. But overrated doesn't mean bad, it means overrated. Good things can be overrated. The Patriots defense is good, but it relies way too much on the takeaway.
    So you started an entire debate with me because I made the exact point you just did here? Because that is literally what I said. I never said the Ravens were great or amazing. I said they were one of the better offenses in the AFC (which they currently are, you can argue that they're one injury away from crumbling, but just like the Panthers with McCaffery, as long as that player is healthy they have a great offense that most teams have been struggling with) and the best offense the Pats had played to date (and have provided no argument or evidence to the contrary other than "I think the Bills are the best offense they've played so far and Browns has a better one on paper"), which is why I'd been saying everyone needed to slow their roll on crowning the Pats defense as a historic one due to the weak schedule they'd played in the first 8 weeks. Hell I didn't even bring up stats beyond win/loss records and historical trends until you started saying the Browns and Bills have a better offense than the Ravens.

    It doesn't matter if the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills play the Pats a lot so they know them better, it's literally a fact that since Brady has become the starter those 3 teams have been absurdly terrible and have struggled to just make it above .500, much less make it into the playoffs (seriously, look up how they have done in that 18 year span). The fact is that through the first 8 weeks the Patriots had played the weakest schedule by far. No team had played as many teams with less than 2 wins than them, and everyone had played at least 2 games against a team that currently has a winning record. Their signature wins were the Bills and a Steelers team that is currently 4-4. The rest were against teams that are a combined 7-35 (one of them twice).

    All I said is that everyone was on the hype train for the Patriots defense while ignoring their cake-walk schedule, and the fact that they lost pretty decisively to the first good offense they played was the exact reason why I'd been saying as such.

  6. #2486
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    Meant to say NFL, not AFC. My point still stands.

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    So you started an entire debate with me because I made the exact point you just did here? Because that is literally what I said. I never said the Ravens were great or amazing. I said they were one of the better offenses in the AFC (which they currently are, you can argue that they're one injury away from crumbling, but just like the Panthers with McCaffery, as long as that player is healthy they have a great offense that most teams have been struggling with) and the best offense the Pats had played to date (and have provided no argument or evidence to the contrary other than "I think the Bills are the best offense they've played so far and Browns has a better one on paper"), which is why I'd been saying everyone needed to slow their roll on crowning the Pats defense as a historic one due to the weak schedule they'd played in the first 8 weeks. Hell I didn't even bring up stats beyond win/loss records and historical trends until you started saying the Browns and Bills have a better offense than the Ravens.

    It doesn't matter if the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills play the Pats a lot so they know them better, it's literally a fact that since Brady has become the starter those 3 teams have been absurdly terrible and have struggled to just make it above .500, much less make it into the playoffs (seriously, look up how they have done in that 18 year span). The fact is that through the first 8 weeks the Patriots had played the weakest schedule by far. No team had played as many teams with less than 2 wins than them, and everyone had played at least 2 games against a team that currently has a winning record. Their signature wins were the Bills and a Steelers team that is currently 4-4. The rest were against teams that are a combined 7-35 (one of them twice).

    All I said is that everyone was on the hype train for the Patriots defense while ignoring their cake-walk schedule, and the fact that they lost pretty decisively to the first good offense they played was the exact reason why I'd been saying as such.
    And you are literally making the opposite argument when you are saying the "Ravens are the best offense the Patriots have played." You are inconsistent and won't admit it.
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  7. #2487
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    If the Ravens aren't the best offence the Patriots have played this season then who is?
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  8. #2488
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    If the Ravens aren't the best offence the Patriots have played this season then who is?
    whatever the opposite of mAiNsTrEaM mEdIa says
    /s

  9. #2489
    While I wish they were 8-0 with all blowout victories, I'm cool with the Bills 6-2 start. I'd be concerned if they had been losing to many of the teams on their "soft schedule". I do not think they are elite, nor do I feel they are a bad team that just got an easy schedule. Cautiously optimistic.

    I don't know what to make of their offense. I just don't think a Sean McDermott team is going to be an offensive juggernaut. Allen has too many turnovers, but has seemed to play his best football under pressure in the 4th quarter. I like that trait, but would rather see the team put games away in the 3rd quarter, instead of coming out flat after the half.

    The defense is good, not elite. Good enough to keep them in games, but capable of having an occasional dumpster game (vs eagles) too.

    I never expected this to be "the year" for buffalo.
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  10. #2490
    John Ledyard in a recent interview said the Bills are an 8 win team who're going to win 11 games this year. The schedule is just favorable and Allen is benefiting from stability in the staff and front office and some pieces he didn't have last year.

  11. #2491
    Most teams are overrated until the Playoffs.

    I'm glad to see the Patriots play someone at least half way decent. They seem to often have an easy schedule. Normally because they have 4-6 easy games because of their division every year.

  12. #2492
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    John Ledyard in a recent interview said the Bills are an 8 win team who're going to win 11 games this year. The schedule is just favorable and Allen is benefiting from stability in the staff and front office and some pieces he didn't have last year.
    Fair enough. Before the season, in my mind (don't recall if I posted it anywhere) I had the Bills as an 8 or 9 win team.
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  13. #2493
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Plenty of teams had easier schedules on paper, not all of them took advantage, if you were to look at how some of them were ranked before the season

    Easiest - Washington (1-8)
    Tied 2nd - Jets (1-7)
    Tied 2nd - Giants (2-7)
    Tied 2nd - Bengals (0-8)

    As for the Bills, they're winning the games they're supposed to win, which is always a good place to start, they have plenty of tests upcoming to see who they really are, but so far so good.
    /s

  14. #2494
    Fluffy Kitten Pendulous's Avatar
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    People complaining about the Cowboys' schedule too. But they also have played divisional games already. Two against the Giants and one against the Redskins. Not really anything they can do about that. They've lost to Green Bay and New Orleans already, curious what they do against Minnesota. Patriots, Bills, Rams. They have a rough out of division schedule.

  15. #2495
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Gruden needs to have his red flag taken away.

    Rivers makes some awful throws.

    Josh Jacobs is insane.
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  16. #2496
    Fluffy Kitten Pendulous's Avatar
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    Melvin Ingram running through a double team was also insane.

  17. #2497
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    Melvin Ingram running through a double team was also insane.
    Was worrying how he split it so easily.

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    Rivers having the worst performance from an AFCW QB since Superbowl 48.
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  18. #2498
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    If the Ravens aren't the best offence the Patriots have played this season then who is?
    You could make an argument for the Bills or Browns being better offenses. Maybe not better teams, but again, the issue comes with how you define it.

    The Ravens have 3416 yards of total offense ... 634 came in a SINGLE GAME. They are under 400 a game without the Dolphins game. It is a difference of about 30 yards per game. Their next best in yardage was against the Bengals at nearly 497 yards. The Ravens tend to but up a lot of yardage against crap teams. They have played 8 games almost a third comes in 2 games. The games they got over 400 yards were Cardinals, Bengals, Dolphins and Chiefs. Even though the Chiefs are a good team, their defense is not that good.

    In fact, the only team OTHER than the Patriots the ravens have played that has a defense in the top 50% of the League ... was the Steelers. The Patriots played the Ravens, Steelers and Bills.

    I am going to point blankly say this ... I don't care if you believe the Patriots defense is overrated because it beat up on "weak" offenses ... but if you are going to say that, then you MUST also say the Ravens offense is overrated because they beat up on weak defenses. If you are going to tout that the Ravens barely beating the Ben-less Steelers shows they are good ... then you do not get to discount the Patriots playing the Bills. Otherwise, you are just a hypocrite.

    Look at the whole picture, not just the facts you think prove you right.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-11-08 at 01:57 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  19. #2499
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    In what world has the 2019 Browns offence been better than the 2019 Ravens one?
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  20. #2500
    Fluffy Kitten Pendulous's Avatar
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    Ok, I think when we get to "if you take away their two best games, they're not any better than everyone else", the conversation should be over. That is meme levels that go beyond any kind of actual debate.
    Last edited by Pendulous; 2019-11-08 at 02:12 AM.

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