Blizz hyping new villains by downgrading older ones

[Kaneiac]

Sargeras never was or will be a bad guy. He was the main hero of the WoW story, saving the universe from destruction.

It seems BFA is going to punt on the ending of the void lord story, but Azeroth may still be born a corrupted void titan and destroy the entire universe because our characters are evil selfish shits.

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But some dipshit paladin whose plan failed until being saved by "the light" said something about more Lich Kings so he must be right!

Terenas said it, not Tirion.

[Akibaboy]

The original Lich King lore is kinda a weird hodpodge of things in the first place though.
• Blizzard wanted to incorporate the characters, fantasy, and themes of undead into their universe
• Having next to no connection to any of that other than the necrolyte unit, they wanted to somehow tie said undead fantasy into their existing franchise, thus the Kil'jaeden and Ner'zhul angle happened
• In what was effectively a shoehorned element, you have the Nathrezim being the creators of the helm, frostmourne, and the plague... despite us never hearing that this was a tool of theirs in any previous universal campaigns, and conveniently forgetting to use it again against us

So the lore and themes that created one of, if not the series most iconic villain was actually pretty threadbare. Beyond that, even within the campaign that introduced him they quickly pivoted to try and disconnect the undead, Arthas, Kel'thuzad, etc. from their connection to the demons. It was clear even in WC3 that there were plans of the LK serving a higher purpose (which Chronicle kind of mini-resolved by saying it was to create an undead army capable of defending Azeroth instead of the dozens of warring factions that'd never unite).

Then in WotLK, they expanded the lore and themes of the Scourge and connected parties further. By the same token that Shadowlands "retconned" a bunch of stuff, so too did WotLK. They wanted to pivot the undead lore closer to that of Nordic origin by introducing Vrykul, Val'kyr, a connection to the LK. As far as the death elements, the creators said after the fact that they really wanted to connect Yogg Saron to the Lich King, Northrend and tie together elements via him but they failed due to things being cut, like the Azjol'Nerub. All of those things were made to untie the lore of that from the Legion lore, and to potentially tie the LK's existence to a higher purpose / power.

Now we're here, in Shadowlands. That "source" of the LK's existence is identified. They've "retconned" that the LK and Scourge weren't inventions of the Nathrezim, but moreso tools appropriated by them. This is good because:
a) As stated previously, the Scourge to Legion connection wasn't a great one in the scope of the overall lore because it raises more questions for the Legion than is really worth it. It was a quick fix to shoehorn the themes of undeath into WC3, and the result was the pretty stellar tale of Arthas so oh well.
b) It resolves many of those disparate threads of Lich King having a connection to some pretty fundamental forces of the universe, as was hinted at and expanded upon in WotLK

Beyond that, I guess I don't really see Bolvar getting bodied as much of an issue. Bolvar was the "Lich King" in title... but Bolvar wasn't the man we played as in WC3, he wasn't the man we struggled against for all of WotLK. The lore makes clear that was Arthas who dominated the personalities within the helm, and the recent cinematic makes clear that Bolvar is still Bolvar when he says "it's a prison", Sylvanas calls him usurper, so it's not a hybrid of personalities or anything like that - he stuck to his word and was jailing the damned on Azeroth. In the history of the series, I'd absolutely say that Sylvanas is a much more fundamental character than Bolvar. That said, I would've liked a bit more action in the cinematic. And if they ever straight up showed Arthas getting owned that handily, especially after the cutscene from Frozen Throne, then I'd have some issues with that.

But yeah, in summary I think the history of the game was always pointing to the Lich King being a piece of a much larger, more threatening picture.

[javierdsv]

Getting old stories and reworking them or remastering them is working for every company out there right now, why wouldn't Blizzard do that as well?

It sells, dude, it's not that they are destroying your beloved characters to make you feel bad, they are just making money.

Their sole, and only purpose is to: make money.

Your fun or lore inconsistencies are to be forever disregarded, remember that when you're playing.

[Pheraz]

out of all exps, i liked a lot how in MoP they admitted that we are facing less threatning bosses, how Thunder King is flat out a very minor threat in compare to LK, how any sha is weaker than Yogg Soran, or how that G'huun in BFA is lore-wise very weak in compare to an actual real old god
why not make more like that? gameplay G'huun is no question far harder than any old god, it didn't effect gameplay in anyway, why do they have to sh8t on old lore to create new one

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how? he was described until Legion as the ultimate evil, the biggest badass pure evil to exist in entire warcraft universe
Then Legion came, and turned him to be actually a scared cat who got so traumatized by see a glimpse of void lords powers that he went nuts and decided to destroy everything to not give them chance so he never ever face them, like a guy who got so afraid of death that he suicides -.-
This extreme cowardice act doesn't sound powerful to me

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I disagree
Most ppl consider LK as the top ultimate badass of wow because wc3 not wow, LK is the most successful villain in wow history and has the longest achievements of f8cking everyone, u can't name anyone else with even half of LK list of achievements of killing super powerful foes or at least defeat them, u play as Arthas and struggle as him to rise to power and become the ultimate most powerful and achieve everything
In fact in wow i find they tainted his image (a little) with well, zero success, only success he had was with that troll quest and that was because we helped him, everything else we show up we kick his a88, even Anub'arak the best meatshield tank in wc3 campaign get beaten by us (also his fight in ToC hc was a nightmare at its time)
While I agree with everyone how LK status specially as the best villain is highly regarded in most players, i disagree on why he is like that, imo it was entire wc3 campaign that built him up the way he is, not wow

But why are you so sure about how much people played wc3? I loved it too but because of the night Elves anyways, I don't think most of the wrath players played it

[sam86]

But why are you so sure about how much people played wc3? I loved it too but because of the night Elves anyways, I don't think most of the wrath players played it

because LK long list of achievements in villainy happens in wc3 not in wow, in wow we see him already on top, his achievements in wow are just the troll thing, and if u want to count it we run away from him couple of times

[Halyon]

Keeping old character relevant constantly is stagnation.

[sam86]

assuming all Titans are more or less similar in power without too significant gap

that assumption is wrong, in so far last edition of sh8tcon on lore, Sargeras alone is more powerful than the entire pantheon of titans, so the difference already is massive between Sargeras vs everyone else, only Argus (who btw, we players f8ck him) had enough potential to rival him, any other titan not
also i admit it was never stated clear, i was under impression in older lore that Aman'thul was the strongest titan since he is well, their leader
blizz changed it to Sargeras fighting all titans and beating them all, turning them to spirit form with zero hope of back to be titans again, then blizz made Sargeras a chicken so afraid of anything void that he will destroy everything to not give the void a foothold in physical world, which as u said he doesn't want a void corrupt any world soul
then they made that extreme f8cking sh8t remark that Sargeras lust for Azeroth, he wants to f8ck a planet, at least he penetrated azeroth with a sword not his d8ck, so he is coward and horny, what a 'badass'

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Keeping old character relevant constantly is stagnation.

until they f8cked LK in last cinematic i'd say he still kept his reputation and power in eyes of players, even if we turned him to loot piniata weekly we understand gameplay != lore or else raptor in Zandalar is stronger than Nefarian and Onyxia and Deathwing combined
they didn't need to do that, as already pointed out, if u had to beat LK, at least make her struggle, not right click delete him

[Halyon]

until they f8cked LK in last cinematic i'd say he still kept his reputation and power in eyes of players, even if we turned him to loot piniata weekly we understand gameplay != lore or else raptor in Zandalar is stronger than Nefarian and Onyxia and Deathwing combined
they didn't need to do that, as already pointed out, if u had to beat LK, at least make her struggle, not right click delete him

I didn't like the cinematic either, but you realize that Sylvanas is an old character too, right? With BS OP power-level. Bolvar didn't have Frostmourne, which is a substantial font of power that was destroyed las time we fought him. There are things to consider.

[Linkedblade]

Bolvar as a Lich King wasn't entering villain territory like Deathwing,Garrosh,Sargeras. He wasn't actively trying to destroy the world, he just did shady things but not on a global scale. The Lich King somehow getting downgraded isn't really a thing. The Lich King and Scourge have always been an Undead type of thing not literally dead souls. We also barely know anything about this Jailer dude, so its way too quick to judge.

If you play along with the DK order campaign the deathlord pretty much reconstructs Acherus as copy of Naxxramas. So they had him set up to be a clone of Arthas. I guess we'll see what happens in the new DK start area.

[sam86]

I didn't like the cinematic either, but you realize that Sylvanas is an old character too, right? With BS OP power-level. Bolvar didn't have Frostmourne, which is a substantial font of power that was destroyed las time we fought him. There are things to consider.

not to that stupidly OP 1 side, she even detect in total winterstorm every attack, she get chains out of thin air, and break the helmet with her bare hands without even a sweat, not to mention the blink or miss remove his entire undead army, that point is huge since blizz stated before that LK + his army is unstoppable and are the most dangerous enemy ever to exist for Azeroth (also that was Arthas LK not Bolvar)
LK Arthas was the top badass, so even if Bolvar is downgrade, he shouldn't be that weaker, hence why Sylvanas toying with him means she is stronger than even Arthas, which is sh8t

[oplawlz]

It's creatively bankrupt writing, but honestly it's what we've come to expect from Bliz over the years. If you're into warcraft because of the lore or story you should really get to a library and raise your standards.

[Houle]

OP a few things you stated seem wrong to me. Maybe they aren’t, it’s all opinion anyway. But a few facts might clear your negative opinions.

Firstly Sargeras was never downplayed. He’s still intensely powerful and has successfully waged war against the void and was shown for the first time only a year ago. And he was gigantic and intensely powerful. He may be much more powerful than a void lord.. with no ‘s’ at the end. Against many? That’s why he was forming an army of mortal races and beasts and transforming them into immortal infinite demons.

The Lich King hasn’t been downplayed at all! He’s the mirror king of the undead within the mortal plane. Think Ragnaros MC vs. Ragnaros Firelands. Ragnaros Firelands was much more powerful because he’s within his own realm - the realm of fire. As we are now within the realm of death, it would make sense whoever rules there would have unparalleled power over death magic. But he wasn’t the Lich King’s boss, just the ruler of a separate realm where the magic he utilizes is much more powerful.

The Lich King calling upon the armies of Maldraxxus isn’t calling the Lich King any less powerful. That’s just how necromancy magic works as we are going to discover. The problem so many people are having is they created headcanons to how magic in WoW works and now that it’s being explained in an expansion, people are confused or thinking retcons are taking place. Magic is otherworldly power manifested on the mortal realm - fire from the Firelands, Arcane from the Twisting Nether, Life magic from the Emerald Dream, Death magic from the Shadowlands. So everything from the spirits that send you envelopes on Lunar Festival to the Forsaken and ghouls rising out of the ground - it is all death magic and it all comes from the same plane.

Think of this as one giant Firelands expansion just dealing with a separate type of magic. With the Arbiter/Jailer being Ragnaros, and Thrall/Powerful fire mage being the Lich King. I suppose that’s the best analogy I can come up with.

Hmm, that actually sounds pretty reasonable, fair enough. Havent looked at it that way.

Perhaps you're too young to have played, but the Lich King died years ago. Based on the established rules for Shadowlands so far, Arthas will be somewhere in the Shadowlands and could potentially come back.

Been playing since WC3 came out, but sure, too young, whatever you say.

[MrSaggins]

Seems like a matter of inflation to me. The introduction of new evil as a credible threat inherently necessitates a devaluation of the prior threat through addition of supply and the urgency of the present.

They can also go the rock-paper-scissors route. Arthas beat the hell out of Illidan, but now Illidan is Sargeras’ jailer. Demon Hunters are uniquely trained to and especially adept at killing demons. Rock to scissors. It isn’t so cut and dry but a non-linear system of power progression is probably preferred. Personally I would never tone a fantasy series up to the cosmic Sci-Fi levels of power seen in the Antorus patch in my own writing. Diablo IV is also heading away from that direction and toning things down. Less is certainly more.

[Blightrose]

Bolvar was just an intern take over from the proper Lich King, he was never portrayed as anywhere near as powerful AND he didn'nt have frostmourne either, one of the most powerful artifacts ever to exist on Azeroth.
I do feel the problem with Sargeras and The Legion, they were both portrayed as the biggest and baddest our universe have to offer. Their mission was to cleanse the universe of all life so it wouldnt get corrupted, so literally the only thing that should ever compete with them are the Void Lords themselves, who are the very reason Sargeras wants to purge the universe. That the PC's and their ragtag bunch of cronies are able to take out their homeworld made very little sense to me.

This is the problem when every expansion has a level increase AND has to threated the entire world.

[Halyon]

not to that stupidly OP 1 side, she even detect in total winterstorm every attack, she get chains out of thin air, and break the helmet with her bare hands without even a sweat, not to mention the blink or miss remove his entire undead army, that point is huge since blizz stated before that LK + his army is unstoppable and are the most dangerous enemy ever to exist for Azeroth (also that was Arthas LK not Bolvar)
LK Arthas was the top badass, so even if Bolvar is downgrade, he shouldn't be that weaker, hence why Sylvanas toying with him means she is stronger than even Arthas, which is sh8t

Like I said, I didn't like it either, but the OP's argument on this cinematic is a really bad argument, because both characters are old. People have otherwise complained that this wouldn't have happened with Arthas. One of the reasons it wouldn't have worked is because of Frostmourne not being destroyed when we fought it him.

There other reasons as to why Bolvar LK was weaker than Arthas. My issue with the cinematic isn't as such that Bolvar lost (lost, not killed/destroyed, which would probably have taken a lot more effort), even if it was BS convoluted, it was that Sylvanas destroyed the crown with next to no effort or repercussion. That she was powered up by some entity we can't really quantify isn't sufficient to excuse the BS storytelling, in my opinion.

OT, that doesn't mean that older characters always remain relevant or the same powerhouses they are/once were. Shit has to evolve to remain interesting. How it has been handled in BfA is the wrong way to do it.

[WintersLegion]

It's not easy to strike a balance between respecting old lore characters and introducing newer ones that need to appear fresh and exciting. People tend to forget that they are free to like old characters and new ones.

Yeah I could just see when our characters are told about the new threat that isn't as big of a threat as the old threat. "This guy is very dangerous though he's not as dangerous as those you've already defeated so I guess you really don't need to do anything special to defeat him so why don't you take five minutes kill him and then go get lunch and take the day off."

[Feanoro]

Blizz hyping new characters by tearing down/humiliating/trashing old ones? Gosh, that's certainly new and unprecedented.

"Patience, Tyrande! Let me teach you how warfare works!"

[Qualia]

that assumption is wrong, in so far last edition of sh8tcon on lore, Sargeras alone is more powerful than the entire pantheon of titans, so the difference already is massive between Sargeras vs everyone else, only Argus (who btw, we players f8ck him) had enough potential to rival him, any other titan not
also i admit it was never stated clear, i was under impression in older lore that Aman'thul was the strongest titan since he is well, their leader

I don't quite agree. It's true that Sargeras won against the Pantheon in their first big battle against each other, but I don't believe it's because his power was so far ahead of others. I was under impression that Sargeras managed to do so because he was heavily infused with Fel and as Chronicle said, the Titans are especially more susceptible to Fel, thus granted Sargeras the "element" advantage over the others. That, and perhaps the other Titans (except Aggramar) might not be as experienced in fighting given that it was Sargeras and Aggramar who took the duty of battling against the demons. Aggramar, even with his weakness against Fel, still managed to hold on in his first 1v1 battle with Sargeras quite well before shattering both their weapons and retreating. He only died in the second battle because of his naiveté. When they didn't fight head-on and the Fel-weakness wasn't involved, Sargeras couldn't resist the spell the Titans' spirits (who were much weaker than their former Titans bodies) used to pull him back and trap him.

If Sargeras was more powerful than the rest of the Pantheon combined even without the Fel-weakness advantage, it would make little sense for him to be so afraid of the Void Titan just because the Nathrezim told him even the entire Pantheon wouldn't be able to beat a Void Titan (well, unless he is a coward as you said, but then that means the other Titans are quite stupid for putting a coward as their champion and universal police). Wouldn't Sargeras' fear make more sense if their are roughly the same - with certain Titans a bit more powerful than others (but not "I'm more powerful than all of you combined" level)?

[Ophenia]

Agreed with OP. In 10.0 we'll discover the real real bad, older and more powerful than Titans, the Jailer and the Arbiter combined

[sam86]

If Sargeras was more powerful than the rest of the Pantheon combined even without the Fel-weakness advantage, it would make little sense for him to be so afraid of the Void Titan just because the Nathrezim told him even the entire Pantheon wouldn't be able to beat a Void Titan (well, unless he is a coward as you said, but then that means the other Titans are quite stupid for putting a coward as their champion and universal police). Wouldn't Sargeras' fear make more sense if their are roughly the same - with certain Titans a bit more powerful than others (but not "I'm more powerful than all of you combined" level)?

Being coward doesn't make u not strong, u can be insanely strong and still coward in heart run away as soon u think u facing someone who is far stronger than u
Also they didn't just make him coward, they made him a horny coward, with that weird desire to have sex with Azeroth even if Azeroth isn't even born yet (let's add pedophil to his list of sh8t behavior, but is there really something like pedo in titans terms?)