Let's talk Stagger

[Triceron]

So what are your thoughts on the Stagger system?

I really like the idea of this system, but I remain skeptically optimistic based on gameplay footage. Here are my impressions.

Pros
- Diablo 4 looks a lot more paced action rather than frantic arcade, so CC seems to play a more important part
- Stagger on bosses is a neat mechanic. Breaking parts fits seamlessly
- Having everyone contribute to building up stagger feels co-operative

Cons
- Building up a bar doesn't have moment-to-moment fun. There's no cause-and-effect when everyone is contributing their CC's to build up that stagger bar at the same time. How do you know your Frost spells are contributing compared to if you swapped to lightning? That bar would still build up by other people's attacks.
- Stagger seems to take way too long to fill. Is it worth building your character into CC's to get multiple staggers? It seems like it would be better to get 1 stagger and burn the boss with pure DPS.
- CC's don't feel like CC's. It's great that your CC's aren't just useless against a boss, but at the same time there is a disconnect from being a Frost mage and banking on freezing and slowing, and having literally no slowing/freezing effect on a giant boss. Its understandable mechanics, but just my impression of gameplay immersion.

I'm a big fan of the Monster Hunter series, and I think this game really does a great job of making CC's and Stuns feel intuitive. Rather than just be one giant monster you're attacking, a monster has different areas on its body that has its own armor value and resistances. One monster might have huge horns that makes it resistant to cutting and piercing damage, but breaking the horns (using blunt force) will make it vulnerable to cutting/piercing. Another monster might have a large lashing tail that has its own health (tied to the main health, but is considered a separate value); and if you focus your damage on the tail you can cut it off specifically. These are things that aren't tied to one 'stamina' meter of the boss, these are location-specific areas to attack. And that's what really makes the monsters feel like they're unique, even if some dragon looks like a reskin of another type, something with big breakable fangs has a completely different fight and feel to the same beast archetype that focuses on tail lashes instead.

I think that's what these big bosses need. Multiple hitboxes, and places you can direct your attacks. That's the difference between a very immersive fight like in Monster Hunter, and a basic 'burn the boss down' mode like say in Guild Wars 2, where you kinda end up feeling like a cog in the system when everyone's just picking a safe spot, firing-and-forgetting, and just dodging whatever poop spawns under your feet.

[Cairhiin]

I personally like it, but I do think it needs more fine tuning, and it is no doubt really in its early stage. I would like a system where different attacks lead to possibly different staggers (i guess a bit like MH). I mean a fireball shouldn't be chopping off a limb. Ultimately, I think this can be great but currently it does need a bit of work. Having said that, these world bosses will no doubt end up feeling zergy like in GW. I think that's going to be hard to avoid.

[Knaar]

Is there a video or recap of the panel somewhere i can check for that stagger system?

[Kumorii]

The biggest issue with Diablo is due to the nature of action RPG where eventually everything just boils down to kill everything quickly or die.
I know that when D3 was released I enjoyed the idea of shield skeletons and hard hitting mobs where you had to dodge. It sounded good on paper, but shields are sort of irrelevant now. It still just boils down to deal dmg and kill them. Hard hitting mobs and dodging bigger attacks is still there which is nice, but it such a small part.

I love the idea of breakable limbs and it will probably be awesome when you are weak but I'm worried that when we go up in power and difficulty it will still just boils down to kill them before they kill you with some small dodges.

Looks like they are trying to make changes to that du to above system with breakable limbs and stagger etc etc and I sure hope they solve the scaling issues ARPGS tend to have with these systems. On paper D4 seems to break new grounds, I hope it stays true to the most difficult of difficulties.

[Cairhiin]

I love the idea of breakable limbs and it will probably be awesome when you are weak but I'm worried that when we go up in power and difficulty it will still just boils down to kill them before they kill you with some small dodges.

Looks like they are trying to make changes to that du to above system with breakable limbs and stagger etc etc and I sure hope they solve the scaling issues ARPGS tend to have with these systems. On paper D4 seems to break new grounds, I hope it stays true to the most difficult of difficulties.

This is indeed a huge problem due to power creep, and no game has worse power creep than D3 due to the endless GR treadmill. Hopefully, D4 will not fall into that trap, and player power should stay within certain limits (like D2) as that's the only way to keep a stagger system relevant.

[Beefhammer]

So what are your thoughts on the Stagger system?

I really like the idea of this system, but I remain skeptically optimistic based on gameplay footage. Here are my impressions.

Pros
- Diablo 4 looks a lot more paced action rather than frantic arcade, so CC seems to play a more important part
- Stagger on bosses is a neat mechanic. Breaking parts fits seamlessly
- Having everyone contribute to building up stagger feels co-operative

Cons
- Building up a bar doesn't have moment-to-moment fun. There's no cause-and-effect when everyone is contributing their CC's to build up that stagger bar at the same time. How do you know your Frost spells are contributing compared to if you swapped to lightning? That bar would still build up by other people's attacks.
- Stagger seems to take way too long to fill. Is it worth building your character into CC's to get multiple staggers? It seems like it would be better to get 1 stagger and burn the boss with pure DPS.
- CC's don't feel like CC's. It's great that your CC's aren't just useless against a boss, but at the same time there is a disconnect from being a Frost mage and banking on freezing and slowing, and having literally no slowing/freezing effect on a giant boss. Its understandable mechanics, but just my impression of gameplay immersion.

I'm a big fan of the Monster Hunter series, and I think this game really does a great job of making CC's and Stuns feel intuitive. Rather than just be one giant monster you're attacking, a monster has different areas on its body that has its own armor value and resistances. One monster might have huge horns that makes it resistant to cutting and piercing damage, but breaking the horns (using blunt force) will make it vulnerable to cutting/piercing. Another monster might have a large lashing tail that has its own health (tied to the main health, but is considered a separate value); and if you focus your damage on the tail you can cut it off specifically. These are things that aren't tied to one 'stamina' meter of the boss, these are location-specific areas to attack. And that's what really makes the monsters feel like they're unique, even if some dragon looks like a reskin of another type, something with big breakable fangs has a completely different fight and feel to the same beast archetype that focuses on tail lashes instead.

I think that's what these big bosses need. Multiple hitboxes, and places you can direct your attacks. That's the difference between a very immersive fight like in Monster Hunter, and a basic 'burn the boss down' mode like say in Guild Wars 2, where you kinda end up feeling like a cog in the system when everyone's just picking a safe spot, firing-and-forgetting, and just dodging whatever poop spawns under your feet.

Check out the Gameinformer Barbarian new gameplay video form earlier this week. Shit gets pretty frantic. The CC isn't CC like in an MMO, it's more like slowing effects and stun effects that last a very short duration. They won't really do anything to a boss but you get the added bonus of stagger if you pile enough on over time.

[Absintheminded]

It sounds really cool, and it's a nice way to make stun/CC builds not useless on bosses. That said, it may make those builds mandatory if it's really going to reduce boss power, as was stated over the weekend.

[Triceron]

Check out the Gameinformer Barbarian new gameplay video form earlier this week. Shit gets pretty frantic. The CC isn't CC like in an MMO, it's more like slowing effects and stun effects that last a very short duration. They won't really do anything to a boss but you get the added bonus of stagger if you pile enough on over time.

I understand how the system works, I just think it could be implemented in a more immersive, natural way.

Right now it's literally about building a bar up by spamming CC's, then something breaks. Rinse repeat.

What I think should happen is have the boss stagger, but in that stagger phase the players should be on point to dish enough damage (could have weaknesses to X, whatever the condition is) before she gets up to dish the break. This makes it feel more like the player is causing the break rather than the boss just being clumsy after every stagger.

This is how Monster Hunter deals with breakable parts. Tails get cut because you applied enough 'Slashing' damage to them, armored shells break because you applied enough 'Blunt/Force/Explosive' damage to them. Parts should have weaknesses that you can exploit, which favours players having creative builds meant for certain 'part breaking'.

[Beefhammer]

I understand how the system works, I just think it could be implemented in a more immersive, natural way.

Right now it's literally about building a bar up by spamming CC's, then something breaks. Rinse repeat.

What I think should happen is have the boss stagger, but in that stagger phase the players should be on point to dish enough damage (could have weaknesses to X, whatever the condition is) before she gets up to dish the break. This makes it feel more like the player is causing the break rather than the boss just being clumsy after every stagger.

This is how Monster Hunter deals with breakable parts. Tails get cut because you applied enough 'Slashing' damage to them, armored shells break because you applied enough 'Blunt/Force/Explosive' damage to them. Parts should have weaknesses that you can exploit, which favours players having creative builds meant for certain 'part breaking'.

Meh, it's fine. It's likely you won't be focusing on stagger because you only have a couple of abilities that would add to in in any given build. It's more of a bonus for using them on bosses if they in your build.

[Spl4sh3r]

The Monster Hunter system wouldn't work in Diablo in my opinion. The reason for this is that bosses aren't as slow to turn around as they are in Monster Hunter. Also the bosses aren't that big to begin with that splitting up their bodies into even smaller parts would be a viable solution.

[Triceron]

Meh, it's fine. It's likely you won't be focusing on stagger because you only have a couple of abilities that would add to in in any given build. It's more of a bonus for using them on bosses if they in your build.

TBH that is my criticism on the feature and how it functions in practice.

I've watched that boss beaten about 10 times now through 4-5 different streamer videos. There wasn't really any variance or difference to beating a boss with 2 staggers vs 1 stagger. There wasn't really any strategy to timing the stagger in the moment-to-moment gameplay. It was more of a 'Oh nice the boss went down, we can breathe for a couple seconds' moment of respite.

That is one of my worries because it feels a lot like Guild Wars 2's open world bosses, where they're literally loot pinatas. I ended up just farming one of those bosses because there was no other end-game content to do, and the fights were exactly the same rinse-repeat type of stuff where you avoid poop on the ground, push the boss into a 'phase' etc. And that's what the stamina bar feels like, just a 'phase'.

I understand that this is working as intended, but I don't find it meaningful. At some point, it becomes a 'soft timer' for a boss falling down.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

More I hear "stagger" being brought up, more I was reminded of Dark Souls and other such games. Dunno how I feel about stagger being introduced. Stun is ok, but stagger? Eh, I dunno about that. Are they going to put in special attacks for when you stagger the enemy next?

[Triceron]

More I hear "stagger" being brought up, more I was reminded of Dark Souls and other such games. Dunno how I feel about stagger being introduced. Stun is ok, but stagger? Eh, I dunno about that. Are they going to put in special attacks for when you stagger the enemy next?

Considering so many abilities are on cooldowns, this sort of thing might be a special effect like a Legendary stat or a rune condition.

And even then I don't know if it'll be very useful since stagger doesn't last long. It looks like the boss fell down, breaks its arm and gets right back into the fight, less than 7 seconds of stagger.

[KrayZ33]

This is indeed a huge problem due to power creep, and no game has worse power creep than D3 due to the endless GR treadmill. Hopefully, D4 will not fall into that trap, and player power should stay within certain limits (like D2) as that's the only way to keep a stagger system relevant.

D3s GR treadmill is exactly what would allow stagger to remain relevant as higher GR-level bosses remain alive even when players gain power.

On top of that, stagger a great way to further advance support builds (which are awesome)

[Cairhiin]

D3s GR treadmill is exactly what would allow stagger to remain relevant as higher GR-level bosses remain alive even when players gain power.

On top of that, stagger a great way to further advance support builds (which are awesome)

I am talking about the open world, not any instanced content. World bosses are out in the open world, and they make use of the stagger mechanic.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering so many abilities are on cooldowns, this sort of thing might be a special effect like a Legendary stat or a rune condition.

And even then I don't know if it'll be very useful since stagger doesn't last long. It looks like the boss fell down, breaks its arm and gets right back into the fight, less than 7 seconds of stagger.

Yes, but it makes Ashava's sweep attack much less dangerous. It's not so much the CC time.

[KrayZ33]

I am talking about the open world, not any instanced content. World bosses are out in the open world, and they make use of the stagger mechanic.

Then they'll add worldboss X on Torment Y - What's the difference

It's really no different than having the world boss on "normal/nightmare/hell".
It's not like players would scale indefinetely in D3 without paragon.

[Cairhiin]

Then they'll add worldboss X on Torment Y - What's the difference

It's really no different than having the world boss on "normal/nightmare/hell".

If it's like D3, then that still doesn't matter, you still destroy bosses in seconds even on hightest Torment, and as far as I'm aware they don't want many difficulty levels (though I'd need to find a source for that).

[korijenkins]

I hope the multiplayer element isn't too pushed.

I don't want to see 20+ people fighting one thing. 5 or 6 is enough.

[CrawlFromThePit]

So what are your thoughts on the Stagger system?

I really like the idea of this system, but I remain skeptically optimistic based on gameplay footage. Here are my impressions.

Pros
- Diablo 4 looks a lot more paced action rather than frantic arcade, so CC seems to play a more important part
- Stagger on bosses is a neat mechanic. Breaking parts fits seamlessly
- Having everyone contribute to building up stagger feels co-operative

Cons
- Building up a bar doesn't have moment-to-moment fun. There's no cause-and-effect when everyone is contributing their CC's to build up that stagger bar at the same time. How do you know your Frost spells are contributing compared to if you swapped to lightning? That bar would still build up by other people's attacks.
- Stagger seems to take way too long to fill. Is it worth building your character into CC's to get multiple staggers? It seems like it would be better to get 1 stagger and burn the boss with pure DPS.
- CC's don't feel like CC's. It's great that your CC's aren't just useless against a boss, but at the same time there is a disconnect from being a Frost mage and banking on freezing and slowing, and having literally no slowing/freezing effect on a giant boss. Its understandable mechanics, but just my impression of gameplay immersion.

I'm a big fan of the Monster Hunter series, and I think this game really does a great job of making CC's and Stuns feel intuitive. Rather than just be one giant monster you're attacking, a monster has different areas on its body that has its own armor value and resistances. One monster might have huge horns that makes it resistant to cutting and piercing damage, but breaking the horns (using blunt force) will make it vulnerable to cutting/piercing. Another monster might have a large lashing tail that has its own health (tied to the main health, but is considered a separate value); and if you focus your damage on the tail you can cut it off specifically. These are things that aren't tied to one 'stamina' meter of the boss, these are location-specific areas to attack. And that's what really makes the monsters feel like they're unique, even if some dragon looks like a reskin of another type, something with big breakable fangs has a completely different fight and feel to the same beast archetype that focuses on tail lashes instead.

I think that's what these big bosses need. Multiple hitboxes, and places you can direct your attacks. That's the difference between a very immersive fight like in Monster Hunter, and a basic 'burn the boss down' mode like say in Guild Wars 2, where you kinda end up feeling like a cog in the system when everyone's just picking a safe spot, firing-and-forgetting, and just dodging whatever poop spawns under your feet.

You're bringing up good questions.
Some of these issues are about balancing. For example you mention that it seems to take too long to bring that bar up. ATM nothing is balanced in what they showed us, we don't even know what the next 2 classes will be, we have no idea how much CC each class can bring, did they even use these CCs at all? What about the runes? There's rune ideas that can bring CC on top of what classes already have. I'm sure there's gonna be a way to make a heavy CC build that basically focus on staggering a boss early in the fight.

As for straight up CCing bosses, that's already an issue in D3 making the game easier than what it should be, I don't think being allowed to stun lock bosses is a smart idea at all, cold sorc or not.

I really like the idea of breaking parts of enemies in MH as well, but I'm not sure it could be properly applied to D4's gameplay style and pacing. It works really well in MH because as you progress you never reach a point where you just demolish monsters, they're always really long to kill so taking the time to break parts to make your survival easier is a smart long term strategy. There's not really any long term strategy in Diablo, whatever we do the boss will die in way less than 2 minutes, it's no 15-20 min battle like in MH. So breaking parts of enemies really wouldn't have the same impact in Diablo, sure it would be cool to see but ultimately you're always better off just smashing your face in them and doing dmg anytime you can instead of trying to run around them to cut their tails, what you would gain from this wouldn't be as good as just standing there and dpsing.

One option to make the part breaking a thing in Diablo is actually giving a huge damage reduction to the boss up until you break some parts, or make a breaking part extremely deadly and annoying to the point where you want to do absolutely nothing but break that part, which limits the gameplay options you could possibly have if you don't force that design on every boss, also could make the boss quite insignificant once that part is broken. I think the devs are targetting a feature that is fun to do but not necessary, gives a slight advantage when done right but if you don't want to bother with it you could make a pure dps build with no CCand get things done anyway.

[KrayZ33]

If it's like D3, then that still doesn't matter, you still destroy bosses in seconds even on hightest Torment, and as far as I'm aware they don't want many difficulty levels (though I'd need to find a source for that).

But that has nothing to do with the GR grind.
It's the same thing whether you use 1 difficulty, 10, 100 or 2.
As long as the player is allowed to outscale the difficulty with items, this will happen unless you "one up" the powercurve with game difficulty.
The reason why you gain stronger by grinding GRs in D3 is not because you get better items each time.
Gems and items scale up to point X - Paragon however does scale indefinitely.
Which means unless you have a system in place that can one up it (i.e. Greater rifts, which also scale indefinitely) you will in theory be able to reach a point in the game where you can one shot every boss.

That means.
As long as D4 doesn't use a system that allows players to scale indefinitely. World bosses will always remain difficult as long as they add a difficulty that's "one" above what players can achieve through items/stats inside the game. (so the "GR" is not a curse, but the cure to different problem D3 has)

If you don't do that, you'll either get a world boss that is too weak, or too strong for anyone but the most well equipped.
So, multiple difficulty levels are a must unless you want the open world to be like WoW-worldquests.

At the same time however you have to consider the fact that many players will/would stop playing Diablo once they reach a point where they can't advance their characters anymore.
So capping playerpower is infact not that healthy for the game either in my opinion.