Sylvanas vs Lich King, lol how

[Deianeira]

So Alliance and Horde will be friends next expansion and fight together the evil Sylvanas . I can't understand why all Horde leaders after Thrall must be bad guys . I hopped for an expansion with an other bad powerful nutral bad guy like Lich King or Deathwing or Illidan . Not a leader of a faction again .

Actually i dont think that we will kill Sylvanas, it may well be that we go "into the Shadowlands" after her but i think we will somehow either dont deal with Sylvanas ourselves. I think her motivations are not what we think regardless of what we have seen of her actions. Though i dont think she is a "good" person i dont necessarily think she cares much of what happens to us and i think she is a egotistical being through and through. I think that she know or learned that something was wrong in the death realm(Shadowlands) sometime back and that is why she is so afraid to die. And who knows perhaps this was the only way to actually get to Shadowlands without actually dieing, and lets be real if she had said this to anyone how she wanted to get us there would we have belived her? I would assume that definately the Alliance would have laughed at her if she said she wanted to "break the veil" to the Shadowlands and probably tried to execute her and also the other hordeleaders would aswell.

[RoKPaNda]

We've yet to actually see the Lich King in WoW. First we saw Arthas who was Ner'zhul's little errand bitch (but in a great example of horrendous writing he developed magical brain powers and told Ner'zhul to mind-fuck-off) and then we've seen Bolvar. A guy in a helmet. Woo.

[Deianeira]

It doesn't matter if Bolvar isn't Arthas. No one can be Arthas. What matters is that Bolvar is the Lich King like Arthas was, and from such an important and relevant figure you would expect MUCH more.

One can argue that Bolvar isn't as strong, but he was strong enough to wear the crown and keep the scourge in check for like 10 years without becoming a total nutjob. So he has MASSIVE icy undead balls, no question.

Now that very important lore figure has been made a huge bitch by a highly questionable character for no good reason. He could have put up a fight at least, but no, not even that.

I'll give an example. Imagine someone is strong enough to be the successor of Sauron and to lead the orcs and whatnot in battle. It's not Sauron but it's gotta be someone pretty darn good if he's in charge now, right?
Then an elven archer comes barging through his literal fucking army with the blessing of whatshisface the demigod of death and the new Sauron goes down without a fight.
Are we to believe that being a Sauron is no big deal then? Because that's how you get such a disappointing result.

Stop saying that she "barged through the LKs army" They LET her through probably at Bolvars orders being that he has become arrogant and thought that she wasnt a threat to HIM. I mean the Helm of Damnation is the thing that makes you able to control the scourge and i think that is why she could walk through as easy as she did. And why do people think that Bolvar was powerful just because he took on the Helm? Sure he could control and direct the scourge and sure that is powerful in and of itself but that was pretty much the extent of the Helms power. Also he DID put up a fight and sure he could probably have fought a bit longer but think about it. Blizzard is not doing a friggin movie its a cinematic. What they wanted to convey was that she have SOMEHOW gotten Very powerful the las few years and they demonstrated that very well i think. We will get explanations im sure during the expansions how and why.

[teverin]

My take is that the Lich King's power has a limit. Bolvar isn't out there doing bad things trying to get stronger, he's just keeping the scourge at bay. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has been actively trying to get as much power as she can for how many years now? If a group of adventurers can band together and kill Arthas 'X' number of years ago, it's not so far fetched to think that Sylvanas could have surpassed Bolvar by now with all the kooky death magic she's saved up.

[Khrux]

Bolvar - has control over mindless undead through Nerzhul's helm, including enhanced strength and some mastery over frost. No Frostmourne, which gave Arthas far more strength by capturing and consuming souls to empower himself. Bolvar is weak as fuck by comparison to Arthas, but far more powerful than the average Azerothian.

Sylvanas - Empowered by her bargain with the unknown shadowlands dude, which she has been feeding with the souls of the fallen (teldrassil, 4th war etc.)

You would have to blind to not understand how this works.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Lol how?"

The Maw.

[Angrie]

Yes.
We know she's been making deals with death entities since Legion. We know she started the war to get people killed, and Ion confirmed that those deaths thus empowered her.

What's more, who's to say Bolvar was that strong? He had no death magic experience beforehand and was kinda just "a paladin" (didn't even get a statue in the Sanctum of Light). Then there is the potential that being a charred husk might not make you more nimble or more powerful. The chances of him being even with Arthas & Frostmourne seem pretty slim.

So let's examine this again then with all the proper context:
1. We know Sylvanas was powerful enough to fight one on one with Arthas in the Halls of Reflection (yes, she lost but she held her own while we wiped to Marwyn's trash several times)
2. Since then she has been gaining power from multiple sources including the deaths of a world war she started
3. Bolvar doesn't have the necromatic experience (never a death knight), bodily constitution (crispy husk), or weaponry (Frostmourne) of Arthas.
4. Bolvar loses handily.
5. ...People are surprised?

Pretty sure 95% of the people are angry about a "dude" losing to this skinny chick.

As someone said in a different thread, if Sylvannas was a dude, everyone would think she and the cinematic were badass.
To prove this point, imagine Sylvannas was Illidan... yea, would have been WAYYYY cooler right? As the liberals would say, you're nothing but pigs!

[mauserr]

So what power is she juiced up on that she managed to take on the entire icecrown single handedly, and then defeat Lich King so easely. Its the Lich King ffs, Super powerful being thats also Bolvar, infused by dragonfire and light n sheet

Well, Bolvar first:

- Regular human Paladin
- Dragonflame was only his life support after being shat on by the plague alchemists.
- Not infused by Light, idk where you even got that from, he might have been when he was "alive" alive
- No Frostmourne or any other artifact that was equally strong
- Was no match for Arthas, the true and actually powerful Lich King
- Weaker than the actual adventurer Paladin
- His only tactic was "bolvar smash big rocks into sylvanas!"
- Sat there forever doing nothing but warming up the Crown and keeping the Scourge in check, no power development whatsoever

Then you have Sylvanas:
- Old elf that has seen many wars during her lifetime,
- Killed and turned Banshee by Arthas using the Frostmourne,
- Freed herself from the actual powerful LK (Arthas)
- Strong enough back in time to not lose to Arthas easily,
- Cheated death more than once thanks to her Valkyr,
- Constantly looking for ways to get stronger in Legion,
- Again working her ass off to get stronger in Bfa, chasing powerful artifacts
- Empowered by Helya, an actual godlike being made by the Titans, strong enough to curse Odyn into being stuck in the Halls of Valor
- Empowered by some powerful entity within the Shadowlands, most likely the same kind of power that Arthas had from the Frostmourne, the more souls were being consumed, the more power he had
- Had an actual tactic when fighting Bolvar, dodging his slow ass rocks tricking him into thinking he was keeping up with her, chained his ass

You're looking at Bolvar through the prism of Arthas being a Lich King too, but they are nowhere near close in power levels. Arthas was the shit, Bolvar was not.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Stop saying that she "barged through the LKs army" They LET her through probably at Bolvars orders being that he has become arrogant and thought that she wasnt a threat to HIM. I mean the Helm of Damnation is the thing that makes you able to control the scourge and i think that is why she could walk through as easy as she did. And why do people think that Bolvar was powerful just because he took on the Helm? Sure he could control and direct the scourge and sure that is powerful in and of itself but that was pretty much the extent of the Helms power. Also he DID put up a fight and sure he could probably have fought a bit longer but think about it. Blizzard is not doing a friggin movie its a cinematic. What they wanted to convey was that she have SOMEHOW gotten Very powerful the las few years and they demonstrated that very well i think. We will get explanations im sure during the expansions how and why.

I don't know where you got the arrogant thing from, because as soon as she stepped on the throne, there was an army waiting for her. No one can say for sure why the undead at the gates let her through. Maybe they recognized her as an undead fellow? Maybe Bolvar thought she wanted an audience until she showed to be hostile?

Getting "somehow" very powerful isn't good enough. If I make up a character and give him godly powers because "yes", my audience will want to know how and why. Of course we are going to find out in Shadowlands, but right now we have 5 minutes of a weak, poor man being beaten into submission, and that is neither epic nor engaging.

Also I didn't say they should have made a movie out of it, wat. They just had to show the Lich King to be a bit tougher. Maybe score one hit even if it would amount to nothing. What we got is embarrassing and will be embarrasing still until we are told why it happened.

I imagined Bolvar to be powerful simply because he could bear the burden of the helm. During the cinematic when his eyes turn blue I was sure it meant his will was fading, but even so, he kept the scourge in check for a decade now.

Also, if by " putting up a fight" you mean "being shot and then beaten like a rug", then yes, Bolvar put up a huge fight.

[Khrux]

FYI - the panels also said we'll learn more about the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, where their powers come from and how they work.

We will 100% recreate one of both of these, to either return them to Bolvar to continue being the gatekeeper post-shadowlands, or for some new "hero" to take the burden (it won't be that slag Sylvanas).

Helm - controlled undead
Sword - all the actual power

[BreakerOfWills]

I don't know where you got the arrogant thing from, because as soon as she stepped on the throne, there was an army waiting for her. No one can say for sure why the undead at the gates let her through. Maybe they recognized her as an undead fellow? Maybe Bolvar thought she wanted an audience until she showed to be hostile?

Getting "somehow" very powerful isn't good enough. If I make up a character and give him godly powers because "yes", my audience will want to know how and why. Of course we are going to find out in Shadowlands, but right now we have 5 minutes of a weak, poor man being beaten into submission, and that is neither epic nor engaging.

Also I didn't say they should have made a movie out of it, wat. They just had to show the Lich King to be a bit tougher. Maybe score one hit even if it would amount to nothing. What we got is embarrassing and will be embarrasing still until we are told why it happened.

I imagined Bolvar to be powerful simply because he could bear the burden of the helm. During the cinematic when his eyes turn blue I was sure it meant his will was fading, but even so, he kept the scourge in check for a decade now.

Also, if by " putting up a fight" you mean "being shot and then beaten like a rug", then yes, Bolvar put up a huge fight.

It really isn't the fault of the story if you ignore all the shit in the story and pretend that Sylvanas from Vanilla is the one facing off against Bolvar(that people somehow think is equivalent to Arthas)

From the minute she was put in the story she's been scheming to gather power, in the meantime Bolvar has been pretty much holding position. Every time she's turned up in game she's been more powerful, there's several moments mentioned explicitly in game that revolve around her attempting to get more power - not to mention it being pretty clear in the story that Bolvar is way weaker than arthas, yknow, what with no plate of the damned(to protect him) and no frostmourne(massive focus of power) and no millions of souls inside that frostmourne(in case we forget letting them out at the end of the LK fight and shattering the blade)

They already told us why, your failure to pay attention doesn't change that.

[Dug]

This all boils down to - NO FROSTMOURNE

I don't like how easily Bolvar was defeated either but Frostmourne was like a pretty yuge deal for the LK

[Lord Pebbleton]

It really isn't the fault of the story if you ignore all the shit in the story and pretend that Sylvanas from Vanilla is the one facing off against Bolvar(that people somehow think is equivalent to Arthas)

From the minute she was put in the story she's been scheming to gather power, in the meantime Bolvar has been pretty much holding position. Every time she's turned up in game she's been more powerful, there's several moments mentioned explicitly in game that revolve around her attempting to get more power - not to mention it being pretty clear in the story that Bolvar is way weaker than arthas, yknow, what with no plate of the damned(to protect him) and no frostmourne(massive focus of power) and no millions of souls inside that frostmourne(in case we forget letting them out at the end of the LK fight and shattering the blade)

They already told us why, your failure to pay attention doesn't change that.

That's why I am fine with her winning. I am not fine with her winning by such a large margin though, because that just cheapens the Lich King without adding anything to her story. I get that she's powerful and has the aid of cosmic beings but that is no way to treat a character covering the role of such a beloved Warcraft asset.

I liked Bolvar and I thought he could do a lot as a conflicted Lich King. They will have to do something amazing for me to be interested again in the character and unfortunately I cannot see them doing that. If he's going to be the next Wrathion/Khadgar it's just going to be depressing

[Kyux]

Buddy you are wrong in all your statements, LK obliterated Sylvanas / Jaina in Wotlk when they tried 1-1, go and look it up, your Sylvanas managed to take 15 % of his health while she had close to 0, you can find all of this in halls of reflection.

Let's not even talk that LK in the cinematic had a huge army, I mean come on ...

You're right, but that was Arthas LK who was fit and healthy, not Bolvar who was virtually dead. Also, that was before Sylvanas gained a lot of her power.

And yes Bolvar had a force of undead with him, but only a small one. My point about the army is that the strength of the Scourge is having masses upon masses of undead and being able to raise more. That obviously wasn't happened during that fight in the cinematic.

Also, how is this still an argument? Blizz literally said that Sylvanas has been gaining power and we would learn how she was able to defeat Bolvar. So like it or not it's intentional and has a good reason.

[edw]

You're right, but that was Arthas LK who was fit and healthy, not Bolvar who was virtually dead. Also, that was before Sylvanas gained a lot of her power.

And yes Bolvar had a force of undead with him, but only a small one. My point about the army is that the strength of the Scourge is having masses upon masses of undead and being able to raise more. That obviously wasn't happened during that fight in the cinematic.

Also, how is this still an argument? Blizz literally said that Sylvanas has been gaining power and we would learn how she was able to defeat Bolvar. So like it or not it's intentional and has a good reason.

My point was that she didn't get a scratch, it was like a lvl 120 fighting a lvl 20, dodge dodge parry ... ok? Even if she got a lot of power, a fight with the LK (bolvar) and hundreds of scourge should have made the fight more difficult. I'm ok with him loosing, but not so lame, it was a "let's make this fight epic" but it just annoyed people.

[SoaD009]

This all boils down to - NO FROSTMOURNE

I don't like how easily Bolvar was defeated either but Frostmourne was like a pretty yuge deal for the LK

What would Frostmourne have done for Bolvar in this fight? He couldn't hit her once, so it doesn't matter if he was using a tree branch or Frostmourne.

[hulkgor]

So what power is she juiced up on that she managed to take on the entire icecrown single handedly, and then defeat Lich King so easely. Its the Lich King ffs, Super powerful being thats also Bolvar, infused by dragonfire and light n sheet

Oh look, this one again.

[Beefhammer]

there is an expansion called Battle for Azeroth.

in it, the writing is shit.

in patch 8.2.5 we saw Sylvanas using some power which was never foreshadowed before but we should accept it because it looks cool.

apparently it's enough to solo the entire Icecrown Citadel+LK.

Scourge minions are akin to Stormtroopers, mindless fodder. The LK, was not the all powerful LK we saw when Arthas was it. This is a guy in Bolvar, who only took the mantle to keep the scourge at bay and fend off Ner'Zhul. He was also missing Frostmourne which gave Arthas considerable power, and the Plate of the Damned. I mean he may was wel been three kids standing on each other pretending to be the LK.

[Kyduk]

Scourge minions are akin to Stormtroopers, mindless fodder. The LK, was not the all powerful LK we saw when Arthas was it. This is a guy in Bolvar, who only took the mantle to keep the scourge at bay and fend off Ner'Zhul. He was also missing Frostmourne which gave Arthas considerable power, and the Plate of the Damned. I mean he may was wel been three kids standing on each other pretending to be the LK.

And don't forget that we're aware that Sylvanas made a deal with Helya, out of which we don't know what she gained or gave, and we also know that she was funneling all the new deaths directly into the Maw, which in turn made her considerably stronger. I mean, Bwonsamdi mentioned it a while ago that she was keeping all the dead for herself.

Yet people are surprised to see exactly how powerful she is now...

[FelPlague]

In addition to this, something everyone seems to be ignoring or not noticed

She strategically placed those arrows, while dodging bolvars attacks. Once, once she directly blocked one of his attacks with her bow. The rest were just dodges. Besides that it was all strat and positioning him for the magic to work.

She might be empowered but she's not stronger than him at all from that trailer. Shes just smarter and out played him

this 10000000 times over
if he had landed any of those hits directly, she would have been ripped in half.

- - - Updated - - -

there is an expansion called Battle for Azeroth.

in it, the writing is shit.

in patch 8.2.5 we saw Sylvanas using some power which was never foreshadowed before but we should accept it because it looks cool.

apparently it's enough to solo the entire Icecrown Citadel+LK.

idk if you watched the trailer, but the undead did not attack sylvanas when she approached, likely cause bolvar was not sure why she was here.
so no not "entire icc+lk" just a pack of flailing piles of bone and meat.
also the power has been foreshadowed since legion.