Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[Nagawithlegs]

Yeah people are going to go nuts on here when they reveal that Nathrezim are fel corrupted Venthyr.

[bullseyed]

that article told me nothing about frostmourne or the Lich King's armor. its still possible the nathrezim made it there. its also entirely possible that blizzard doesn't even remember half of their lore.

It also doesn't cite any sources and could be entirely made up, as far as I can see?

[Goldielocks]

I mean demons = fel, but they did enslave/recruit other races. So like the Orcs brought shaman magic I suppose. Probably why it is important that the Dreadlords did the Lich King stuff and not the demon-Burning Legion, because the demons wouldn't have had any way to do so, but maybe the Dreadlords did.

I’d say the biggest question was always that considering the Nathrezim were a demon race (one of the oldest), why they’d be so adept at using a power they themselves aren’t adherent to. They always did seem like the odd ones, especially compared to other original high ranked demons like the Pit Lords.

The problem I have with it all, is that the Dreadlords can do everything the Lich King can, despite being aligned with Fel. That’s what doesn’t match.

[bullseyed]

Yeah people are going to go nuts on here when they reveal that Nathrezim are fel corrupted Venthyr.

I mean they're nearly identical, it can't be a coincidence.

- - - Updated - - -

I’d say the biggest question was always that considering the Nathrezim were a demon race (one of the oldest), why they’d be so adept at using a power they themselves aren’t adherent to. They always did seem like the odd ones, especially compared to other original high ranked demons like the Pit Lords.

The problem I have with it all, is that the Dreadlords can do everything the Lich King can, despite being aligned with Fel. That’s what doesn’t match.

How do we know they're a demon race, though. Like Kil'Jaeden probably would have been called a demon too but draenei aren't demons.

Seems like at some point just everyone associated with the Burning Legion was labeled "demons" and never fact-checked.

[Aucald]

Yeah people are going to go nuts on here when they reveal that Nathrezim are fel corrupted Venthyr.

The Venthyr might just be related to the Nathrezim, or they could be a branch of the Nathrezim that somehow migrated to the Shadowlands long ago to live out their lives - but they may still be tied to the Twisting Nether as natural demons. Difficult to say, really, and we'll need more lore on them.

[Goldielocks]

How do we know they're a demon race, though. Like Kil'Jaeden probably would have been called a demon too but draenei aren't demons.

Seems like at some point just everyone associated with the Burning Legion was labeled "demons" and never fact-checked.

We know because WC3 told us they were. This isn’t about fact checking. It’s about if that has been retconned.

As I already mentioned, in the RTS games the Legion wasn’t Fel only. Only thanks to continuous retconning does the Legion having other abilities feel off.

[Qualia]

How do we know they're a demon race, though. Like Kil'Jaeden probably would have been called a demon too but draenei aren't demons.

Seems like at some point just everyone associated with the Burning Legion was labeled "demons" and never fact-checked.

They are a demon race - Chronicle I stated as much: "Among these greater demons were the nathrezim, otherwise known as dreadlords. Cunning and manipulative, they dedicated their existence to mastering the arts of shadow magic" (noted that shadow magic isn't Void magic, Chronicle specifically mentioned Void just few lines before that).

Kil'Jaeden is a demon. Demon isn't one singular race, a non-demon can turned into one with enough Fel - just like how lore-wise, Illidan is a half-demon now even though he was fully NE before.

As I already mentioned, in the RTS games the Legion wasn’t Fel only. Only thanks to continuous retconning does the Legion having other abilities feel off.

But the Legion, even by now, aren't just Fel only. They use Arcane and Necromancy as well, perhaps even Void. That's a lot of magic (the only thing we haven't seen them using - IIRC - are just Nature / Holy, I guess?). They seem to be dominated by Fel-user, but certainly are far from just Fel only.

[TheFirstOnes]

Difficult to say, really. It's apparently Bolvar who leads the Champions and other Azerothians into the Shadowlands, and he's basically the PoI for this expansion in the same way Khadgar was for Legion, or Saurfang was for BfA. Somehow the Heart of Azeroth is used to tether the Champion and their retinue to Azeroth, allowing them to enter the Shadowlands without dying permanently and to escape the influence of the out-of-control Maw. This is probably how and why the Heart of Azeroth becomes defunct in Shadowlands, like the Artifact weapons before it.

Bolvar: The new Khadgar, Wrathion, and Illidan.

Sylvanas: The new Garrosh, and Gul'dan.

See what's up here?

[Aucald]

Bolvar: The new Khadgar, Wrathion, and Illidan.

Sylvanas: The new Garrosh, and Gul'dan.

See what's up here?

Your basic NPC protagonist/antagonist hierarchy, pretty much a repeated motif throughout WoW?

[Darillyn]

I see no issue with them expanding lore when it comes to topics like this. Honest question since I haven't played it (waiting for Reforged), how was it shown/depicted in WC3? To me, it always seemed weird to me that the Legion outright created the Scourge simply because we really haven't seen them use any necromancy since. The only major example I can think of is Gul'dan at Blackrook Hold. I legitimately think its more interesting if the demons merely harnessed this power from somewhere else. To me, it doesn't invalidate the power of the legion, but it helps solidify the boundaries between the 6 major schools of magic.

At the end of the day, I am going into this expansion with an open mind. It will be nice to finally wrap up all of these different afterlife questions, such as Helya+valkyr and the resurrection of the ancients/loa. If the story ends up being trash like anything after 8.1 I will obviously call it out.

[Goldielocks]

But the Legion, even by now, aren't just Fel only. They use Arcane and Necromancy as well, perhaps even Void. That's a lot of magic (the only thing we haven't seen them using - IIRC - are just Nature / Holy, I guess?). They seem to be dominated by Fel-user, but certainly are far from just Fel only.

True. The statement was more of a hyperbole. The point was just more so that people have a harder time swallowing the Legion being more than Fel when they don’t see it as often.

[agentsi]

Honestly, the worst part of this expansion is going to be the fact that it mutilates Scourge lore.

I'm so done at this point. I'm not buying this terrible expansion, and it's getting treated like it doesn't exist and didn't happen.

Someone with so much hate in their heart, cannot see the truth, even if it is right in front of them. You my friend, need to step away and realize this is just a game. To talk like that, and have a forum avatar that you no doubt made hating on a "game" with that kind of passion is kind of silly.



But on topic...Speaking of the Nathrezim... This is pulled from their wiki, I read it long ago when trying to learn more about Sargeras, but am citing it here for context. It is 100% possible, that they knew of the shadow realms, and a way to control the scourge after being basically enslaved for what appears to have been eons by old gods and the void lords who sent them. The entire purpose of Sargeras enslaving the demons was to fight against the old gods/ void lords, and what better weapon to do that than the undead, which they have no control over. And you're telling me he never knew of that? That the lich king was made just for kicks, or to provide a specific purpose?


One conclave of nathrezim dwelled on a world almost completely corrupted by the Old Gods, basking in their shadowy power, until the titan champion Sargeras discovered them. He ruthlessly interrogated the dreadlords, and it was from them that he learned of the Old Gods and the void lords. The dreadlords revealed that the void lords had sent the Old Gods out into the cosmos in order to find and corrupt a titan world-soul, transforming it into an unspeakably dark creature that not even the Pantheon could stand against. Enraged by this discovery, Sargeras killed the nathrezim and shattered the corrupted world upon which they dwelled.[15]


Now, I am not condoning the retcon-mania that Blizzard tries to go on, but sometimes there are ways of making things work, that we don't like. And if real world history has taught us anything, is that the winners get to write the history books. So its entirely possible that there is a very different version of how things happened and or were created before the Titans/Sargeras got their hands on them.

[TheFirstOnes]

Your basic NPC protagonist/antagonist hierarchy, pretty much a repeated motif throughout WoW?

Yeah, basically.

[TigTone]

Literally just play the game. Three were sent to control the Scourge on Azeroth. A Dreadlord was Ner’zhul’s jailer.

Stop thinking the Lich King is special. He’s not.

someone provide else provide the info and then I responded with more info regard what made Lich king special. If you care to go back and read.

[Azadina]

Bolvar: The new Khadgar, Wrathion, and Illidan.

Sylvanas: The new Garrosh, and Gul'dan.

See what's up here?

Except Sylvanas has such a huge fanbase that Blizzard will never dare make her the new Garrosh & Gul'dan (in the sense that she will die...soon). Both Garrosh and Gul'dan were nuisance for an expansion, and kicked the bucket at the start of the next expansion. If they were to do the same to her, then she needs to die and be gone in the first raid tier at the latest. Just...isn't going to happen really.

[TheFirstOnes]

Except Sylvanas has such a huge fanbase that Blizzard will never dare make her the new Garrosh & Gul'dan (in the sense that she will die...soon). Both Garrosh and Gul'dan were nuisance for an expansion, and kicked the bucket at the start of the next expansion. If they were to do the same to her, then she needs to die and be gone in the first raid tier at the latest. Just...isn't going to happen really.

Okay, dude, you do realize that guys like Arthas have an even bigger fan base, yes? And yet he still died. Same thing with Gul'dan, and Azshara, and the Legion...

Fan bases mean fuck all towards Blizzard.

[Aucald]

Okay, dude, you do realize that guys like Arthas have an even bigger fan base, yes? And yet he still died. Same thing with Gul'dan, and Azshara, and the Legion...

Fan bases mean fuck all towards Blizzard.

That's not really true, the fans are very important to the developers at Blizzard, but the story has to be told the way it's meant to be told. No author worth his or her salt is going to substantially change their story because of fan outcry over a specific character.

[TheFirstOnes]

That's not really true, the fans are very important to the developers at Blizzard, but the story has to be told the way it's meant to be told. No author worth his or her salt is going to substantially change their story because of fan outcry over a specific character.

Honestly doesn't matter. Blizzard would be extremely dumb to push for a Sylvanas "redemption arc". This expansion just screams setting up her downfall.

[KainneAbsolute]

Maybe the Dreadlords are related to the Venthyr

[derpkitteh]

imo, it would make sense to me for the nathrezim to have access to the shadowlands.

they were some of the greatest masters of all forms of magic in existence. necromancy is very much within their power to command, and getting into the shadowlands isn't exactly hard even for mortal necromancers, let alone demonic ones.

so nathrezim go to the shadowlands, maldraxxus specifically, and use their forges to make the helm and frostmourne, and they probably made apocalypse there too.