All the progress and 13+years goes down the toilet

[Omaski]

I would say, as a long-time veteran, consider removing the levels? To me and everyone else, they're kind of a nuisance and effectively useless.

I would say that flips the whole 'MMORPG' concept on its head

[LorDC]

I would say that flips the whole 'MMORPG' concept on its head

That statement is highly debatable. If you look at it from a game design pov, in WoW levels are simply a convenient method to reset player power.
And even if we take it at a face value, so what? MMORPG as a genre is way past its prime and is not really interesting for a modern audience.

[Ange]

I personally don't look at the level I am.. Like, I wouldn't really care if the max level next expansion was 10, or 7, or 93. It's a number you're chasing for the first 6-12 hours of the expansion and then never care about again until the next expansion where you want a higher number.

This is the general feeling I have since I started playing WoW and it is what most players I know think about the whole "LEVELING EXPERIENCE" OMEGALOL.
1-XX is just the first attunement for the real game.

The whole change in shadowland is aimed at NEW-TO-WoW-Players I dont even get this amount of discussion about it from the veteran players. Playing alts will be maybe faster but who cares really? People selfboost alts on timewalking weeks or exploit other holidays with massivly increased XP/hour or just get a boost from other player to grind some "isle mobs" WoD, invasions legion or simply get dungeon/FH runs in bfa.

This change was expected when people talked about a real WoW 2.0. A new and reworked introduction to the game/leveling and the endgame is allready worked out in the last 15years of trial-and-error iterations.

[crakerjack]

I would say that flips the whole 'MMORPG' concept on its head

I've been leveling my warlock from 60-80, all within howly fjord. I'm not even halfway through the zone and I'm already level 78, 2 bars from 79. I could care less about how many levels I gain since I know there's another 40 to go. I do however get excited when I finally reach a trait level such as level 75, but outside of that, I don't necessarily feel more powerful with each level, which is what blizzard is getting at. They want each level to feel like you're becoming stronger by gaining more abilities and the stats meaning something. I've been getting 2 int, 2 stam, 1 str, and 1 agi for a while with each level, and I honestly can't tell how much stronger I'm becoming. The whole time I've been leveling from 60-80, I've gained 2 abilities. I've gained soulwell and my level 75 trait talent. I feel like I'm just grinding levels for the sake of eventually hitting 120.

Levels should feel important, just like how they did back in vanilla. Every other level I knew I would get a talent point and I knew I'd get some new ability. It made me look forward to grinding out those 1-2 levels a day. Whereas now, I literally grinded almost 20 levels in a single day, all while gaining 2 abilities, one of which I never use on my own.

[arkanon]

I would say, as a long time veteran, consider removing the levels? To me and everyone else, they're kind of a nuisance and effectively useless.

I have no issue with this at all. What was once a great method of differentiating a players power is now basically meaningless. This is why i believe that to be true.

The difference in power between a lvl 112 and a level 119 is not that much. The difference in power between an fresh 120 and a raid geared 120 is substantial. These are the things we have been "leveling" in bfa:

110-120
The neck
The essences
Rep
Gear
Raid difficulties (normal>heroic>mythic)
M+ keys
pvp Ratings

Etc Etc

What im saying is that we have so many other ways to differentiate ourselves from each other, and this is where our real power increase comes from as a player. With the way Blizzard continue to use various forms of gating, why not remove levels altogether?

Think of the new expac this way - Start off with everything that a new expac has - hit up the new zone, and start earning rep and gear questing through the zone. Once you finish the final quest in that zone, you can fly there. Move on to the next zone, same deal. Earn gear, everything scales with ilvl now anyway. once you have completed X number of Rep requirements, WQ unlock.

Meh, just an opinion, i have no issue leveling, but i do find it a bit silly.

[gd8]

I would say that flips the whole 'MMORPG' concept on its head

who cares? why can't you people let things evolve and change why does how a video game genre was 20 years ago have to be the rule of law for how it is now?

[thilicen]

If you honestly care that much about a level number there are probably some men in white coats who would love to help you out somewhere.
Your "13" years of progress can be achieved by anyone starting the game today before the end of November easilly. It's a pointless number in terms of character building.

[Polarthief]

Why will Blizzard just wipe all the character progression and all these years just goes down the toilet. 120 to 50 is just big slap to the face and all these years feel now pointless. Why not just stat squish?

Um, really? You think levels are more important than the progress you made each expansion (gear and whatnot) just to get ruined when the next one comes out? You have your priorities super wrong.

[Katchii]

If the number is arbitrary, why bother squishing it? Huur a Durr smaller number easier to reach now!

Because the big number is daunting to newer players and the current leveling process is a disjointed mess.

They're fixing both problems with this. I really can't understand why people would be so against this idea.

[Thelin]

Why will Blizzard just wipe all the character progression and all these years just goes down the toilet. 120 to 50 is just big slap to the face and all these years feel now pointless. Why not just stat squish?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

TLR

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Omaski]

That statement is highly debatable. If you look at it from a game design pov, in WoW levels are simply a convenient method to reset player power.
And even if we take it at a face value, so what? MMORPG as a genre is way past its prime and is not really interesting for a modern audience.

I don't think 'levels' are as cut and dry as you seem to think. WoW levels are the gateway to everything new in the game. You can't equip this weapon because your level is not high enough, you can't proceed to this new area because your level isn't high enough to complete the content, you cant enter this dungeon because your level/gear-score is not high enough, etc...that is the basis for ALL RPGs. I do agree that the MMORPG genre has fallen in a few ways, but there are some people, myself included, that still love playing WoW (when I get the chance nowadays), & there must be some way to gauge how strong our character is...how would you do that, if not by a leveling system that has worked for decades? If levels did not exist, what's to stop a max level toon from trading a max level weapon to his low-level friend to breeze through 'leveling' content?

[Jujudrood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

TLR

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Okay, a simple 'wrong' would've done just fine.

[FAILoZOFF]

Past vanilla (tbc and onward) there were really only 2 levels.
1- leveling
2- level cap
only vanilla somehow supported idea of levels, and even that- barely
In all honesty? I don't see a point of having any levels at all really. Ideally, I'd make them be more like "paragon levels" from diablo, just a SLIGHT upgrade of stats/raw damage/healing/defense boost. Each level would take very long, probably even longer than leveling in vanilla, and rested mode would be even more valuable so that people don't feel like its worth all that much to "brute force" it through and burn out.

[Omaski]

who cares? why can't you people let things evolve and change why does how a video game genre was 20 years ago have to be the rule of law for how it is now?

You say 'let things evolve', but you haven't pitched the idea of what to use instead of a leveling system that has worked for decades. I'm not opposed to any positive change, but if you're gonna just type what's wrong and never a solution you're really wasting my time and yours as well. So...I ask you, how do you propose Blizz move forward with leveling in-game?

[Kyphael]

Because the big number is daunting to newer players and the current leveling process is a disjointed mess.

They're fixing both problems with this. I really can't understand why people would be so against this idea.

When I first started playing, max level 80 seemed daunting to me. Especially when my guild mates kept telling me "hurry up and get to 80, game starts at 80!" I hated having to rush through and the pressure, first time around grinding 80 levels wasn't fun, but I did it. 120 today doesn't even take as long as 80 levels in 2008, and with a free boost with expansion purchase, I don't even see the point of having to squish. If I had a boost back in 2008, I'd have used it to play with my friends and not cry that the number seems daunting. New players have the option to bypass leveling altogether and the number still had to be squished?

[gd8]

You say 'let things evolve', but you haven't pitched the idea of what to use instead of a leveling system that has worked for decades. I'm not opposed to any positive change, but if you're gonna just type what's wrong and never a solution you're really wasting my time and yours as well. So...I ask you, how do you propose Blizz move forward with leveling in-game?

they should move forward with it by getting rid of it and focus on adding meaningful content that players want to do instead of pointless grinds that serve only to make you play more. I believe in the expansion after shadowlands they will do this by not increasing the level cap and keeping the level cap at 60 for the remainder of the game while adding the typical expansion features

[Omaski]

I've been leveling my warlock from 60-80, all within howly fjord. I'm not even halfway through the zone and I'm already level 78, 2 bars from 79. I could care less about how many levels I gain since I know there's another 40 to go. I do however get excited when I finally reach a trait level such as level 75, but outside of that, I don't necessarily feel more powerful with each level, which is what blizzard is getting at. They want each level to feel like you're becoming stronger by gaining more abilities and the stats meaning something. I've been getting 2 int, 2 stam, 1 str, and 1 agi for a while with each level, and I honestly can't tell how much stronger I'm becoming. The whole time I've been leveling from 60-80, I've gained 2 abilities. I've gained soulwell and my level 75 trait talent. I feel like I'm just grinding levels for the sake of eventually hitting 120.

Levels should feel important, just like how they did back in vanilla. Every other level I knew I would get a talent point and I knew I'd get some new ability. It made me look forward to grinding out those 1-2 levels a day. Whereas now, I literally grinded almost 20 levels in a single day, all while gaining 2 abilities, one of which I never use on my own.

I completely agree with where you are coming from, I've played WoW since TBC and I know the frustration from grinding to get to max level only to find out that now there is a new grind for gear once you hit max level. however, I do think you are ignoring the core concept of leveling in general, especially in an RPG. what you are criticizing is the leveling experience, which I would admit, is very subpar to other games with a similar, in-depth storyline. BUT, those 'numbers' that you look at with a sideways glance are the reasons you get the abilities that empower you so much. Back in the day, did you ever look at your talent trees and mentally plan how you would progress and researched how that new ability would impact your gameplay? That what true leveling should do in an RPG, but WoW has become a sprint to max level without stopping to smell the roses, thanks to boosts, heirloom gear, & just the overall pace of the game.

[Mikhas]

That seems horrible. Stuck in some tutorial for 10 levels? That is so lame and beyond boring. Especially since a veteran player wont need some tutorial, let alone a dungeon. How would that even interact with the races in unique zones?

Then stuck in a single expansion from 11-50? Even more boring. At least now I can choose between a few choices. Being confined to a single expansion would suck. For example, I love questing in the twisting nether, but hate hellfire.

Seems they are taking your choices away and really putting you on rails to limit your experience.

The old players can choose to do the old starter zones

[LorDC]

I don't think 'levels' are as cut and dry as you seem to think. WoW levels are the gateway to everything new in the game. You can't equip this weapon because your level is not high enough, you can't proceed to this new area because your level isn't high enough to complete the content, you cant enter this dungeon because your level/gear-score is not high enough, etc...that is the basis for ALL RPGs.

And that matters for, like what, one week every other year? Pretty much everything and and everyone assumes that you are at level cap, and not being at it is considered a short transitive state.

I do agree that the MMORPG genre has fallen in a few ways, but there are some people, myself included, that still love playing WoW (when I get the chance nowadays), & there must be some way to gauge how strong our character is...how would you do that, if not by a leveling system that has worked for decades? If levels did not exist, what's to stop a max level toon from trading a max level weapon to his low-level friend to breeze through 'leveling' content?

Why do you even need leveling content? Why is it bad that someone breezes through it?
Now, I am not saying that levels system is bad. It works fine, and squishing levels is a small price to pay.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

you do realize it gonna take aproximately the same time from 1 to 120 as 1 to 50 after the squish yeah ? So if you level to 120 now and get squished to 50 or level from 1 to 50. Its the same. You are not saving any time by waiting

<uses his best sing-song voice> Wrong, wrong wrong wrong, wroooonnnng.

They've repeatedly stated that it's going to be much faster. The fact that you can do it in a single expansion's major quest chains says it all.

But hey, why let facts get in the way, right?