Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[Aucald]

Honestly doesn't matter. Blizzard would be extremely dumb to push for a Sylvanas "redemption arc". This expansion just screams setting up her downfall.

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. I'm just saying that Blizzard is going to tell the story they're going to tell, and both the fans of Sylvanas and her detractors don't have much say in it - it will be what it will be. But yes, I'm pretty confident she's being set up for a long (and, personally speaking, quite satisfying) fall.

[bloodmoth13]

Honestly doesn't matter. Blizzard would be extremely dumb to push for a Sylvanas "redemption arc". This expansion just screams setting up her downfall.

Its gonna be redemption dude. Her motives arent world domination, her battle has always been for the shadowlands ever since she killed herself and realised something was wrong there and couldnt die in peace. She doesnt care for life or living. She will defeat her enemy in the shadowlands, 'free' everyones souls and then her job will be complete. Whether she dies afterward (very likely what she would want anywa) ' or is imprisoned (likely by tyrande) she wont care.
Acting like death is punishment for someone who wanted to commit suicide is a little silly. Imprisonment and denying her death would be a significantly bigger punishment for her.

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imo, it would make sense to me for the nathrezim to have access to the shadowlands.

they were some of the greatest masters of all forms of magic in existence. necromancy is very much within their power to command, and getting into the shadowlands isn't exactly hard even for mortal necromancers, let alone demonic ones.

so nathrezim go to the shadowlands, maldraxxus specifically, and use their forges to make the helm and frostmourne, and they probably made apocalypse there too.

Its damn near all but confirmed that they could access the shadowlands. Most dreadlords we meet use necromantic magic instead of fel magic, they are incredibly well attuned to death magic and are vampiric by nature. I always thought the old explanation that 'kill jaedin and the dreadlords forged the most powerful death related artifacts in existence' was an insufficient explanation. What, was it forged in the nether? An area saturated in fel magic?

[TheFirstOnes]

"Her motives aren't world domination" Pretty sure Sylvanas wants to be a goddess of Death, and conquer everyone and everything, but okay.

[Goldfingaz]

"Her motives aren't world domination" Pretty sure Sylvanas wants to be a goddess of Death, and conquer everyone and everything, but okay.

She wants to dethrone the jailer so when she dies she can be at peace, and she is using us to do so.

You can take that to the bank.

[TheFirstOnes]

She wants to dethrone the jailer so when she dies she can be at peace, and she is using us to do so.

You can take that to the bank.

He can't die then when she dethrones him. So no, the bank has nothing there.

[Restors]

how do you know that the nathrezim didnt go to the shadowlands to craft the helm of domination and frostmourne??

because demons cant enter the shadowlands. unless blizzard changed their opinion about that matter aswell...

[Goldfingaz]

He can't die then when she dethrones him. So no, the bank has nothing there.

Take. It. To. The. Bank.

Come on, you know he's going to be dethroned and a redeemed Arthas is going to take his place, don't you?

[Kathranis]

because demons cant enter the shadowlands. unless blizzard changed their opinion about that matter aswell...

Nothing says they can't enter it, they just don't go there when they die.

[valky94]

because demons cant enter the shadowlands. unless blizzard changed their opinion about that matter aswell...

just because demons dont go to the shadowlands when they die doesnt mean that they cant inflitrate it

[TheFirstOnes]

Take. It. To. The. Bank.

Come on, you know he's going to be dethroned and a redeemed Arthas is going to take his place, don't you?

He's the main villain of the Expansion. If anything, she'll be gone before him.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

All necromancy comes from the Shadowlands. Its not significant. The entire point here is that they’re trying to paint the Lich King as unique when he’s not. He’s no different than a Dreadlord.

Except that he was waaaaay better at it than any of the Dreadlords? Even the high ranking Scourge members in WC3 like Arthas and Kel'Thuzad made the Dreadlords look like amateurs when it came to Necromancy. They were outplayed and outsmarted by Arthas and Ner'Zhul on every occasion.

Dreadlords, Necromancers, Liches and DKs all commanded parts of the Scourge, but the only one with the ability to control the entire Scourge was the LK. That's why he was unique.

[Selah]

Admittedly I've been scratching my head with this one. I am excited to see how Blizzard works out the kinks in this one because I do think that as they begin to explain the story of this they're going to begin to unravel the more cosmic forces of the universe in Warcraft. I suspect we started to touch on this with the Remnant of Chaos that dropped in WoD with it being in the possession of Archimonde seeming to suggest that he had managed to travel to the Rift of Aln (and subsequently the Emerald Dream) and snag it. If Archimonde managed that journey, whose to say they couldn't also travel to places like the Shadowlands?

[GreenJesus]

That's not really true, the fans are very important to the developers at Blizzard, but the story has to be told the way it's meant to be told. No author worth his or her salt is going to substantially change their story because of fan outcry over a specific character.

I still believe the conspiracy theory that fan outcry made blizzard rethink the chandelier's prophecy about Illidan and killed her off instead.

[Azadina]

Okay, dude, you do realize that guys like Arthas have an even bigger fan base, yes? And yet he still died. Same thing with Gul'dan, and Azshara, and the Legion...

Fan bases mean fuck all towards Blizzard.

There's a difference between long established villains getting their end, and suddenly turning fanboy favourite faction leader of over a decade into a villain and killing it off. Not happening.

As you might have noticed, they didn't even have the guts to kill Thrall off, despite it having been high time he's out of the picture for good since Cata.

[Thorbalt]

Because it makes no sense for forces of death (ie. benevolent forces of nature) to work with demons to use "death magic" to interrupt the natural flow. That contradicts all common sense. It also contradicts the Nathrezim being demons from the twisting nether.

It also contradicts the point of Nerzhul being sent to Azeroth to kill all the living not be a "jailer" of the damned as part of some grand scheme with death.

Not only that it contradicts the undead and the scourge as abominations throwing off the balance of nature and death.
Nope. All of that is thrown out the window with Sylvanas making a deal with death that basically allows her undead corpse to keep living.
Because by all rights any force of death should immediately snatch her soul to the shadowlands where she belongs.
But not going to happen because apparently death is ok with necromatic death magic keeping souls of the dead in the world of the living.
This is the "grand scheme" to be revealed in the upcoming xpac.

You must really get your panties twisted into knots when we find real world examples of our actual history being "retconned" just because we got new information that presents past events in a different light


hows it like living with your head shoved so far up your ass that new information is always a bad thing to gain?

[nyarlo]

Considering some Nathrezim were masters of shadow magic and even aligned themselves with the Old Gods back when Sargeras was a goodboi. I don't see why they wouldn't have access to the Shadowlands.

[Matiketope]

So, how does this actually change the original story behind the items? Or is just more story into deeper to the lore?

Why all the fuzz?

[thilicen]

That's not really retcon, right. Kil'jaden just pulled them from the Shadowlands, effectively "creating them" on the normal realm.

Anything that so much as touches upon or adds details to existing lore is a retcon in this community.

[Thelyron]

There's a phrase you need to learn and take to heart. If you are familiar with warhammer, you might already know it:

"Everything is canon. Not everything is true."

There are no retcons, just different accounts of different people. All the lore you read is in-universe propaganda, shaped by different parties to suit their needs.

[Engal]

It also contradicts the Nathrezim being demons from the twisting nether.

The Nathrezim are a race older than Sargeras himself.
So imagine this scenarii : The Nathrezim where the denizen of the Shadowlands, or the Nathrezim were once a mortal race that became a big shot in the ventyr covenant once they were dead. Hell, even the actual leader of the ventyr got a nathrezim sounding name ' Denathrius '
they lived in nathreza and became corrupted by the Fel Magic and became demons. Thus closing their doorway to the shadowlands forever. thus, we now have the nathrezim demons race that Sargeras encountered after. ( The eredars were mortals too before )

See ? that works and nothing is retconned.

It also contradicts the point of Nerzhul being sent to Azeroth to kill all the living not be a "jailer" of the damned as part of some grand scheme with death.

Nerzhul was not sent to Azeroth to " kill all the livng ". It was sent there as a pawn for the Legion when the Legion will need him, and served exactly that purpose. Until he rebelled . What we dont know so far is if there was a " catch " from the power the legion borrowed in the shadowlands. They may even have made a Bargain with the jailer that wasn't dealt with, and it would explain why the machine of death broke during Legion when the BL returned to Azeroth.

The only " retcon " as of now is Sylvanas's encounter with the jailer and her goal that changed on the fly despite her thinking otherwise in the books...