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  1. #121
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    This isn't about the merits of Pathfinder or not, but rather a critique of what flying does and why it doesn't matter.

    Flying more than anything is a way of speeding game progress. While this is especially true for leveling it's also true for world content such as your daily quests.

    Now Blizzard has talked about how their dislike of flight often stems from the way it trivializes the world itself. Terrain is no longer a barrier, neither is mob density surrounding assassination targets.

    So Blizzard has designed a world where you area expected to experience the world as you level, but what about after leveling?

    Well at max level you have two main ways of character progression. Open world content and instanced content.

    Instanced content would be:
    Raids
    Instanced PvP
    Dungeons - normal, heroic and M+
    Islands

    Open world content would be:
    Gathering
    World Quests
    Open World PvP

    Meanwhile they have created a world where you don't need flight.

    No, seriously.

    Every single dungeon or raid entrance is accessible almost immediately from a flight path or in the case of many things through a queable system in the menu options.

    As are battlegrounds.

    The main thing that flight speeds up for people is the open world.

    So if you don't spend time in that open world. If you're primarily a raider, M+, PvPer. Then chances are flight isn't really for you and is meant to be a reward for those out experiencing the open world.
    The onlt problem is the world is not designed with flying in mind. Flying is nothing more than a tool to make the boring world experience less tedious while being a carrot for people to keep subbing.

    Any new xpack should be designed while considering flying from the very start. Or delete flying. You can't just have a tool that is taken away all the time and when you give it back it's making the world irrelevant or justifying having a boring world that becomes less annoying if you go through it faster. It's just a series of bad ideas trying to solve the mistakes of the previous bad idea.

  2. #122
    I've said before the only way I'd sacrifice flight is for (generous) teleporters. Blizzard seemed fundamentally against them, but I thought they worked well in Suramar and Argus. I want flight because WoW's methods of transit are tedious. I'd also argue that you can't skip over content that doesn't exist. There are no dynamic events in WoW, so once you've completed questing there's nothing you're missing by flying over it. Flight paths are the single most immersion breaking aspect of the game. I can't think of anything else that pacifies your character and can't be exited out of until you reach the next stop. There have been so many times I've wished I could jump off and slow fall to where I needed to go but, no, I have to fly over my destination and then ride back. It's also been a long term pet peeve of mine that there aren't more direct connections.

    I don't care about flight related content or penalties for flight. I think WoW has a larger ongoing problem of being a HUGE game world and having arguably the worst transit systems in the MMO genre. There are a lot of things I don't do because I can't be arsed to spend 20 minutes per character flying out to places (manual or not) to farm stuff like transmog. Blizzard should be focusing on getting players to activities faster so that they're actually engaged in gameplay rather than having the bulk of their time spent traveling and a fraction doing anything else.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Naz is a fucking nightmare on the ground, but from the air it's a way more enjoyable and way better looking zone.
    If questing in Naz is "a fucking nightmare" then chances are LFR is too complicated for you, and what are we really missing out on if you quit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I've said before the only way I'd sacrifice flight is for (generous) teleporters.
    Every player gets a teleport on a 5 minute CD. This is already in the game.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza View Post
    But it is not a good danger, in the sense of it creating an immersive feeling of threat or a challenge on the ground. Like, with classic, the world was dangerous in a challenging way, that you had to be careful where you travel and how you engage mobs in combat. Even the streets was always a threat and even staying on them could be dangerous in certain zones, due to elite mobs patrolling through them. It gave you an down to earth feeling. In terms of immersive threat, there was the Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula, wo was this colossal mighty beast that just randomly patrolled the entire zone, especially back in the day when he would bug out and just start running around the zone. It conveied this feeling of threat that we were supposed to feel when we entered the zone, which was nearly fully controlled by demons and fel orcs. The danger we nowadays have in zones on the other hand, is just an annoyance. It doesn't deliver us a challenge nor an immersive feeling of entering a dangerous and hostile zone.
    Again, don't disagree. But saying that there is no danger is just not true. It's the annoying kind and not the immersive kind, true, but it's still danger.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except you just proved it works with your example... unless I'm missing the point of your argument..

    Someone disliking something has everything to do with THEM as a person. Just because I dislike something doesn't mean the option shouldn't exist for someone else.

    Vegans don't like eating meat, the crazy one's believe NO ONE should eat meat. Should meat be available? Those that disliked flight always had the choice to simply not fly, unless the zone or game design necessitated it. However, making flight largely unavailable removes any and all choice and forces everyone under the design choice of those that don't want flight, which is BS as those that would prefer to fly don't get a choice in the matter.
    I tried to used more realistic examples but maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I'm also not the best at explaining it but I'll use other examples.

    You don't like rape? We'll just don't rape people then.
    Don't like dog fighting? Then don't host dog fights.
    Don't like stealing? Then don't steal.
    Don't like driving 100mph in a residential zone? Don't drive 100mph.

    When society in general engages in something you can't just ignore it on an individual basis. There's a name for the fallacy but I'm too lazy to look it up.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    I tried to used more realistic examples but maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I'm also not the best at explaining it but I'll use other examples.

    You don't like rape? We'll just don't rape people then.
    Don't like dog fighting? Then don't host dog fights.
    Don't like stealing? Then don't steal.
    Don't like driving 100mph in a residential zone? Don't drive 100mph.

    When society in general engages in something you can't just ignore it on an individual basis. There's a name for the fallacy but I'm too lazy to look it up.
    The argument isn't completely flawed. It basically boils down to "Be the change you want to see" in order to add your one drop of influence into society, and maybe it will become a river that changes the overall current.

    In other words, the more people that do something, the more acceptable it starts to become in society. This is watered down, in this case, by being a simple matter of preference rather than the positive/negative comparison your examples used. Rape, dog fights, stealing, and driving at excessive speeds in residential areas are all pretty negative. Choosing to fly in a videogame vs staying on the ground....neither of those are negative.

    So the argument of "Just don't fly if that's what you enjoy" is a valid argument. You should be putting your fun and enjoyment ahead of what other people are doing.

    The counter-arguments of "I have to fly to remain competitive" isn't actually a counter argument. It's just a statement that you're more interested in being competitive than you are with enjoying the immersion of staying grounded. People make decisions between difficult options like this all the time. Some people switch from Alliance to Horde in order to compete in the raiding scene, even if they enjoy Alliance more. Some switch classes or specs to be a better healer, tank, or DPS, even if they don't really enjoy the class as much. People switch professions all the time.

    So when someone tells you: "Just don't use your flying mount if you want to enjoy the ground", it's not the same kind of argument that you're describing. That person is just telling you to play what you enjoy, and stop trying to force other people to play the same way you do. Players who want flying have to choose to play on the ground or unsub. It's COMPLETELY fair for them to tell you that you have to choose between being competitive and staying on the ground.

    And you know what? A LOT of people choose what they enjoy over what's more powerful or effective.

    All this doesn't even go into how insignificant the "staying competitive" argument will be without the AP grind of WQs. Even WITH the AP grind there are a lot of mitigating factors. Islands and M+ grinds being alternate sources of AP. Farming gold in old raids or working the AH often being more lucrative and effective than straight gathering in the open world, etc, etc.

    I don't buy the "staying competitive" argument at all. But in Shadowlands where the AP grind won't even exist, that argument loses even more weight.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    I tried to used more realistic examples but maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I'm also not the best at explaining it but I'll use other examples.

    You don't like rape? We'll just don't rape people then.
    Don't like dog fighting? Then don't host dog fights.
    Don't like stealing? Then don't steal.
    Don't like driving 100mph in a residential zone? Don't drive 100mph.

    When society in general engages in something you can't just ignore it on an individual basis. There's a name for the fallacy but I'm too lazy to look it up.
    Last time I checked, it was neither a crime nor directly hurting someone to fly in a video game. I don't understand why people like to make flying out to be this all-encompassing bad thing.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Exystredofar View Post
    Last time I checked, it was neither a crime nor directly hurting someone to fly in a video game. I don't understand why people like to make flying out to be this all-encompassing bad thing.
    Because a lot of people never learned the lesson that it's ok to like things that other people don't like. And it's so much easier to demonize something you disagree with in order to make your own position feel or sound better, even if only to yourself.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    This isn't about the merits of Pathfinder or not, but rather a critique of what flying does and why it doesn't matter.

    Flying more than anything is a way of speeding game progress. While this is especially true for leveling it's also true for world content such as your daily quests.

    Now Blizzard has talked about how their dislike of flight often stems from the way it trivializes the world itself. Terrain is no longer a barrier, neither is mob density surrounding assassination targets.

    So Blizzard has designed a world where you area expected to experience the world as you level, but what about after leveling?

    Well at max level you have two main ways of character progression. Open world content and instanced content.

    Instanced content would be:
    Raids
    Instanced PvP
    Dungeons - normal, heroic and M+
    Islands

    Open world content would be:
    Gathering
    World Quests
    Open World PvP

    Meanwhile they have created a world where you don't need flight.

    No, seriously.

    Every single dungeon or raid entrance is accessible almost immediately from a flight path or in the case of many things through a queable system in the menu options.

    As are battlegrounds.

    The main thing that flight speeds up for people is the open world.

    So if you don't spend time in that open world. If you're primarily a raider, M+, PvPer. Then chances are flight isn't really for you and is meant to be a reward for those out experiencing the open world.
    Pro-flyers usually overcomplicate this problem. It's standard casual vs hardcore problem. What is casual? When I come from work and I'm tired, I expect game to be relaxing and fun. And "challenge" and "competition" aren't actually relaxing and fun, you know. And as I'm casual, there isn't much content, available to me. That's why casual player usually means altoholic. Because some raider may hang in his raid for months. That's why long term grind, like AP grind, isn't bad for them. And once I complete, let's say, leveling and war campaign, I run out of content to do on this character. There is no time for me to do long term grind. That's why I prefer to switch to alt and do some casual-friendly content again. But in order to be casual/alt-friendly, this content should be replayable. And this means "smoothing some sharp corners". And flying is great tool to remove all unnecessary mechanics from game, that aren't fun, relaxing, causal- and alt-friendly. Such as crawling through crowd of mobs, constantly putting you into combat and trying to daze and dismount you, on your way to WQ. That's it. As simple, as that.

    And I don't even ask to make WHOLE game casual/alt-friendly. But there should be at least some casual/alt-friendly content on release. That's, what isn't fair. Hardcores have their 100% guaranteed hardcore content, so they can blindly pre-order any xpack and never make mistake. But casuals don't have their guaranteed casual content at release. So, for example, I always have to wait and see. Till some later content patches. As, you know, all major features, like level squish and customization options, will be available for free. And there won't be anything in Shadowlands release, worth my money.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #130
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarama View Post
    That's definitely a better way to implement flying. My issue isn't with having to earn flying, it's with waiting for a year for them to unlock it. I end up not playing any alts and ultimately unsub during content droughts without flying.
    Pretty much, yeah. I don't mind no flying for the first two months or so, but then it just gets old pretty fast. Once we've cleared the content we should get flying, and each now zone should have it's own Pathfinder. Pathfinder one should have unlocked the base BFA zones, Pathfinder two should have unlocked Mecha/Nazjatar ect.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    This isn't about the merits of Pathfinder or not, but rather a critique of what flying does and why it doesn't matter.

    Flying more than anything is a way of speeding game progress. While this is especially true for leveling it's also true for world content such as your daily quests.

    Now Blizzard has talked about how their dislike of flight often stems from the way it trivializes the world itself. Terrain is no longer a barrier, neither is mob density surrounding assassination targets.

    So Blizzard has designed a world where you area expected to experience the world as you level, but what about after leveling?

    Well at max level you have two main ways of character progression. Open world content and instanced content.

    Instanced content would be:
    Raids
    Instanced PvP
    Dungeons - normal, heroic and M+
    Islands

    Open world content would be:
    Gathering
    World Quests
    Open World PvP

    Meanwhile they have created a world where you don't need flight.

    No, seriously.

    Every single dungeon or raid entrance is accessible almost immediately from a flight path or in the case of many things through a queable system in the menu options.

    As are battlegrounds.

    The main thing that flight speeds up for people is the open world.

    So if you don't spend time in that open world. If you're primarily a raider, M+, PvPer. Then chances are flight isn't really for you and is meant to be a reward for those out experiencing the open world.

    I have always maintained that using terrain as a barrier, to the extent Blizzard does, is really just kind of lazy design. Almost a crutch.

  12. #132
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    IMO the system needs to be Pathfinder but only requiring things in Opening Patch. So Loremaster/Exploration/All reps released in first patch, then you can fly.

    Makes no point to have both Pathfinder req and a waiting time.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    The onlt problem is the world is not designed with flying in mind. Flying is nothing more than a tool to make the boring world experience less tedious while being a carrot for people to keep subbing.

    Any new xpack should be designed while considering flying from the very start. Or delete flying. You can't just have a tool that is taken away all the time and when you give it back it's making the world irrelevant or justifying having a boring world that becomes less annoying if you go through it faster. It's just a series of bad ideas trying to solve the mistakes of the previous bad idea.
    It's the answer that Blizzard doesn't want players to think about. They bring up pointless non-issues to keep people debating those instead of saying "hey - why did you guys stop making content with flying in mind?"

    Same thing they've done with lots of stuff. Take talents for example - they keep bringing up the silly argument that there were cookie cutter specs for serious raiders (all 3% of the WoW pop at the time, lul) and boring rows in the trees, completely ignoring the fact that they had complete control of what was in those trees and could have fixed the ones that weren't interesting rather than taking all the rpg elements out of speccing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  14. #134
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Here's a radical thought:
    No flying removes players from the world past the leveling experience. Literally. The only places you can see players in the world are at FP hubs doing WQs and you'd rather they weren't there (you know, those aforementioned assassination quests where you ignored the guards by using flying? - the guards are all dead now and the assassination target is almost dead - tag it quickly). These are fixed locations and everyone goes there and after they are done - they are gone. They are not enjoying the scenery either.
    Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this no-flying thing - if we are to believe their stated reasons, that is. Which I don't, because if their reasons are true they should also remove FPs, summoning stones and the rest of insta-travel - until some arbitrary patch and put it all behind a grindy achievement - and when you go on an assassination quest - you should get phased out into a solo experience - they have the technology.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Break The Ice View Post
    Yup. Flight isn't for me because after 8 years of flight being obtainable from the start they decided to lock it behind a several month grind. Makes sense.
    The most common argument I've heard over the years is

    "My play style consists of slowly moving up into the enemies base, killing his minions, then finishing off the lead quest mob, which I find immersive.

    I see players with different play styles that swoop in on a bird, kill the boss mob then fly away.

    Please removing flying so that everyone has to conform to my play style."

  16. #136
    Here's what I think about it:

    Flying should be unlocked at max level (I've experienced every zone by then)
    or
    Flying should be removed from the game (and open world content not be a hassle to reach)
    or
    Flying should involve more than skipping/rushing to the next WQ (i.e. BC dailies)

    Flying to avoid mobs WHILE doing a quest/worldquest is just stupid design and tells us how boring the game is outside of dungeons/raids.
    The whole mounting system is dumb when you mount/unmount for 10 steps to save some time.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-11-09 at 07:15 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    IMO the system needs to be Pathfinder but only requiring things in Opening Patch. So Loremaster/Exploration/All reps released in first patch, then you can fly.

    Makes no point to have both Pathfinder req and a waiting time.
    You should never be able to skip anything no matter how many times you have dobe it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Pretty much, yeah. I don't mind no flying for the first two months or so, but then it just gets old pretty fast. Once we've cleared the content we should get flying, and each now zone should have it's own Pathfinder. Pathfinder one should have unlocked the base BFA zones, Pathfinder two should have unlocked Mecha/Nazjatar ect.
    So if i clear mythic raid onec i should get every week mailed mythic gear? I alredy explored raid and killed all bossses so let me skip content and give me rewards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Exystredofar View Post
    Last time I checked, it was neither a crime nor directly hurting someone to fly in a video game. I don't understand why people like to make flying out to be this all-encompassing bad thing.
    Do you realize that getting rewards ehile skipping terain and content is considered cheating in most games?

  18. #138
    just do it like ff14 and unlock it once you complete the zones main questline. ezpz

  19. #139
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Break The Ice View Post
    Yup. Flight isn't for me because after 8 years of flight being obtainable from the start they decided to lock it behind a several month grind. Makes sense.
    Flight has been put behind pathfinder for atleast 3 expansions...

    So where is this 8 years with flight from the get go?

    Overall, pathfinder is a good way to lock flying for a while.
    However like other people say:
    - achievement is fine and so are the requirements, we just need it after either unlocking said achievements or after 3/4 months after launch.

    And get part 2 pathfinder for Nazjatar / Mechagon.

    Although i dont have major issues without having flying or while having flying.

    Flying now is really nice for the wq's you have done x times.
    For Shadowlands: not being able to fly for a few months doesnt bother me anyway. I like to explore and conquer the world on my ground mount

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta138 View Post
    Flight has been put behind pathfinder for atleast 3 expansions...

    So where is this 8 years with flight from the get go?
    Bc to end of MoP = close to 8 years.

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