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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    This thread brought to you be the person who posted this gem...

    "No "white" in your name? but my name had it in it :/"

    I think I can hear someone whistling.

    Nuff said...
    Aha. I fucking knew this was a dogwhistle. Said as much on the last page. Your link means I don't have to give the cunt the benefit of the doubt any more. Can we just get this locked now, then?

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwgmon View Post
    Humans who settled different parts of the world are meant to be exactly the same always
    So far we have the EK and Kul tiras as places where humans settled and thrived. Every human so far with established story is from either Kul Tiras or the other 6 nations that made up the Human alliance.

    The issue here isn't that all humans look the same.. it's that they are only shown with a specific lineage and limited groups from said specific lineage.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    What lore? Please direct me to where it says all humans from <insert human kingdom> are white/fair skinned?

    It does make you somewhat prejudiced that you have some visceral objection to different ethnicities being represented in a fantasy setting for no other reason than you don't like them. There is absolutely zero lore reason that they can't exist, but here you are arguing that they shouldn't unless they pass some arbitrary standard that you deem acceptable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    What lore? Please direct me to where it says all humans from <insert human kingdom> are white/fair skinned?

    It does make you somewhat prejudiced that you have some visceral objection to different ethnicities being represented in a fantasy setting for no other reason than you don't like them. There is absolutely zero lore reason that they can't exist, but here you are arguing that they shouldn't unless they pass some arbitrary standard that you deem acceptable.
    The dwarves can somehow meet this "aribtrary" standard mate by having different dwarven clans (one of the is and always was black). As for humans there were never any asian people in wow ever up to this point. There were always black/brown people in stormwind and other areas. So no Stormwind was never a purely white/fair city or whatever you want to call it. And i did not say they could not exist - rather that it goes against 20 years of not seeing a SINGLE asian person in stormwind. Yes introducing them without an explanation is a retcon. Also as i have said before there is no such thing as a meltingpot for thousands of years. Humans interbreed and traits will merge/dissapear over time if there is no place these people come from. And i know you are going to say there are no genes in wow but somehow the trolls managed to diversify by living in different areas, so did the dwarves.

    Also i keep failing to see how wanting more asian in game by me (because remember i want an entire nation of them somewhere to provide lore justification) is racist, bigoted. This is literally a contradiction up on itself.

    Let me explain again - there is a Lord of the rings mmo and it has a lot of diverse skin colors at certain places in the world but not in others (there are no asians though because they do not appear in tolkiens writings - saying that there are probably some in the far east because middle earth is "our world" in the past so it makes sense for them to be somewhere). But the skin variety only appears at places where it makes geographic sense. You wont find a single black/brown person in Rohan. But when you go to gondor you will find plenty of variety in skin color because 1. It is a huge kingdom that exists in a place where cultures clash and it was also a colonial kingdom, 2. it is simply in a hotter place in the world, 3. it is closer geographically to Harad. It is more of an does it make in universe sense rather than just pushing something weird. The rohhirim are all blonde fair skinned boring generic waffles and let them stay that way.

    + Lotro even did the people of Nurn who are blue skinned as far as i remember - again not really a problem in a fantasy universe and in a land close to Mordor.

    Just get the grasp of what i am saying rather than just arbitrarely deciding i am a bigot. One might even say that you are prejudiced against people having different opinions than you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    You may be a pedant, but you are a inconsistent one, that seems to only apply your pedantry against black and asian ethnicities. (SOME) Targaryens are explicitly stated as having purple eyes, please tell me where humans are stated as only being white. I'll wait.
    It is not and it was never stated about humans only being white. Moreover it would be wrong because humans in wow were always brown skinned or fair, not far of a stretch to have black people in. But asians were never in this and it is a retcon sorry about how you feel about this but it is a fact. It doesnt need to be excplicitly stated that humans are this and this. It came from the fact that there werent any in the game.

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    Last edited by Slau; 2019-11-09 at 10:25 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Slau View Post
    Just get the grasp of what i am saying rather than just arbitrarely deciding i am a bigot. One might even say that you are prejudiced against people having different opinions than you.
    Trying to recontextualise predjudice into just being 'disagreement' doesn't help your case at all.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    We already know a proportion of Stormwind humans randomly have black features and have never lost them to interbreeding- why is it a stretch to say the same thing about Asian features? Human genetics have never "made sense" in wow and the only logical lore-based conclusion is that WoW human genetics must be very different from ours, probably on account of being descended from robots rather than primates.
    That is actually true - so i take back my statement about melting pot - it seems there were always black and fair skinned humans in stormwind.
    What about asians though - are we supposed to just accept they were always here? Kul Tirans look different but they come from their island - do asians have an island nation somewhere in the south seas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Trying to recontextualise predjudice into just being 'disagreement' doesn't help your case at all.
    And how do you know what the context of my statement was without asking me first? arent you a little bit too judgemental.

    And no i have not recontextualised anything during this discussion. As a matter of fact since the start i have stated black people were always in wow in stormwind just to get strawmaned to "where in the lore is it written that only white people exist". I have never said such a thing so good luck findinf it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Because white people are in WoW and nobody ever requires a justification for it.

    Humans in WoW are obviously supposed to be representations of humans IRL. It's a very old game, it makes sense for it to actually be representative in 2019.



    It's not 'hard to win' at all. Not being a fucking bigot shouldn't be a chore. If it is, you've got a problem.
    I dont like the whole "representation" thing in fantasy games. It is a fantasy game - it can have only black humans in it and it is fine, it can have all types of humans irl and it is fine or it can have purple skinned humans and it is fine. The point is humans in wow have their origin story from the Vrykul which means there either had to be vrykul that had asian features or humans did change over time. I cant see it happening any other way honestly but perhaps i am wrong.

    Also i do not understand the representative argument because i have only rarely played in games as my skin color/ gender or whatever - i have played plenty of games as a black dwarf (trying to rp as duergar) in NWN or a drow. I dont really identify as my character because rpgs allow me to become who i want to become rather than what i am. I always thought the representation argument is just a failure to understand the nature of RPGS.

    That said more customisation in wow is a good thing. I am not against it - i just wanna have a lore place rather than just accepting everything blizzard throws at us. Remember how wow chronicles were supposed to be THE lore? Well me neither.
    Last edited by Slau; 2019-11-09 at 10:37 AM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Slau View Post
    And how do you know what the context of my statement was without asking me first? arent you a little bit too judgemental.

    And no i have not recontextualised anything during this discussion. As a matter of fact since the start i have stated black people were always in wow in stormwind just to get strawmaned to "where in the lore is it written that only white people exist". I have never said such a thing so good luck findinf it.
    You literally just did. You said that being accused of bigotry for demanding a jusficition for the existence of a particular ethnicity in a loosely-defined fantasy setting is exactly the same as somebody having an issue over a difference of opinion on something minor and unrelated to race politics.

    At no point did I say that you were saying that only white people existed in the lore, so if we're talking strawman arguments that might be a good place to start. The point is that nobody is demanding a lore-based explanation for the inclusion of certain ethnicities, and yet here you are demanding one for the inclusion of a particular skin-tone. Whether or not you're explicitly trying to be bigoted is totally irrelevant - whether by accident or on purpose, it reeks of bigotry and it's a clear dogwhistle.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Slau View Post
    The dwarves can somehow meet this "aribtrary" standard mate by having different dwarven clans (one of the is and always was black). As for humans there were never any asian people in wow ever up to this point. There were always black/brown people in stormwind and other areas. So no Stormwind was never a purely white/fair city or whatever you want to call it. And i did not say they could not exist - rather that it goes against 20 years of not seeing a SINGLE asian person in stormwind. Yes introducing them without an explanation is a retcon. Also as i have said before there is no such thing as a meltingpot for thousands of years. Humans interbreed and traits will merge/dissapear over time if there is no place these people come from. And i know you are going to say there are no genes in wow but somehow the trolls managed to diversify by living in different areas, so did the dwarves.

    Also i keep failing to see how wanting more asian in game by me (because remember i want an entire nation of them somewhere to provide lore justification) is racist, bigoted. This is literally a contradiction up on itself.

    Let me explain again - there is a Lord of the rings mmo and it has a lot of diverse skin colors at certain places in the world but not in others (there are no asians though because they do not appear in tolkiens writings - saying that there are probably some in the far east because middle earth is "our world" in the past so it makes sense for them to be somewhere). But the skin variety only appears at places where it makes geographic sense. You wont find a single black/brown person in Rohan. But when you go to gondor you will find plenty of variety in skin color because 1. It is a huge kingdom that exists in a place where cultures clash and it was also a colonial kingdom, 2. it is simply in a hotter place in the world, 3. it is closer geographically to Harad. It is more of an does it make in universe sense rather than just pushing something weird. The rohhirim are all blonde fair skinned boring generic waffles and let them stay that way.

    + Lotro even did the people of Nurn who are blue skinned as far as i remember - again not really a problem in a fantasy universe and in a land close to Mordor.

    Just get the grasp of what i am saying rather than just arbitrarely deciding i am a bigot. One might even say that you are prejudiced against people having different opinions than you.
    All of that and not a single source that states all humans are white, yet still you argue that there can't be <x> ethnicity. The vast majority of things in-game are so because of gameplay/convenience reasons nothing more, so just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    There is no retcon. Retcon means a change to the existing lore, I will ask you again: please cite the source that says there are only white humans.

    There are no genes in wow, I already addressed this in a post you quoted. As it stands with the exception of fel/void/arcane corruption there is no explanation whatsoever for variation of appearance. Or are you assuming that genes exist? So you can assume genes (a concept highly irregular to high fantasy settings) exist but ethnic minorities don't? You're a joke.

    Having a different opinion doesn't make you bigoted. Having an opinion saying that ethnic minorities shouldn't be included unless they meet an arbitrary criteria set by you does. The inclusion of an 'asian' human doesn't require any more justification than the inclusion of a 'european' human, unless humans have been specifically described as being only european - which they haven't.

  8. #168

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    You literally just did. You said that being accused of bigotry for demanding a jusficition for the existence of a particular ethnicity in a loosely-defined fantasy setting is exactly the same as somebody having an issue over a difference of opinion on something minor and unrelated to race politics.

    At no point did I say that you were saying that only white people existed in the lore, so if we're talking strawman arguments that might be a good place to start. The point is that nobody is demanding a lore-based explanation for the inclusion of certain ethnicities, and yet here you are demanding one for the inclusion of a particular skin-tone. Whether or not you're explicitly trying to be bigoted is totally irrelevant - whether by accident or on purpose, it reeks of bigotry and it's a clear dogwhistle.
    It is not a dogwhistle because i only mean excplicitly what i said and not herp derp i dont want asians in wow. I DO WANT ASIANS in wow, It is good to have more customisation options. And i am sorry i confused you with the other guy who said there is no lore stated there is no lore that only white people X. My sicnere apologies for the confusion.

    Note: Fair skinned humans do have a lore justification because they descend from the Vrykul who are also fair skinned (as far as i am aware anyway) but i took back my statement of the melting pot several posts ago. Now i think due to how wow works it is possible that there were other varieties of Vrykul in the beginning and that is how humans originated. Still doesnt explain why we havent seen the asians up to this point though.

  10. #170
    Pandaria of course.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Or you don't need any of that, and humans were supposed to have that variance in appearance from the start but were held back by technical restrictions.
    Humans already had varied skin tones, now they'll have features to accompany them.
    This has so much logic and reason, it actually hurts to read it.

  12. #172
    Brewmaster TheVaryag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyo wolfsfang View Post
    disclaimer, this is NOT ment to be a racist post at all. This is ment for speculation and lore discussion.



    With the introduction of Black and asian humans, it leaves us to wonder where they hail from. With other races, various skin colors and breeds we have homes for them. Dark iron dwarves from blackrock. Green furry trolls from the forsts.. etc.

    Now with human kingdoms, almost all of them are based of European countries, mainly English. with a few variant European nations.

    With the black humans, we could always say they are from more hot areas. We have desert thiefs in tanaris and uldum? maybe there could be towns and villages? Or just nomadic.

    But asians, I dont see where they could come from, as humans didn't live in pandaria pre-mists. So where might they be from? Or maybe if we had a new nation of humans that were hidden away? After all, gilneus walled off for years, and kultiras was off doing their own thing since WC with very few being seen pre- BFA.

    Edit: The point of this thread is to speculate, head cannon and come up with fun ideas of where the variant humans are from. From a made up land that currently doesnt exist, or a way to fit them into currently places, like someone mentioned an island off of pandaria that was never discovered untill now. And someone else mentioned other side of azeroth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogarash View Post
    Incorrect. Black humans have always been in WoW. They hail, like everyone else, from the human kingdoms in WoW. I don't think these are different peple. We just have the fidelity in WoW now to actually show these types of things and they probably have been asked for.
    It's not as simple as that. It's not unreasonable to ask where this and that type of human comes from. Elder Scrolls Is smart enough to have an answer to that, regular white-skinned humans come from the North Island or whatever it was called, humans settled in early Skyrim and settled across Tamriel. Then the Redguards, the more regular black-brown skinned humans come from an island to the West, they settled in early Hammerfell and that's where they come from.

    I don't know how many Roleplayers are on this site, but already for years and years many Roleplayers (Of which I am one since Vanilla WoW) claim black/brown skinned humans come from Tanaris, as if It's the most obvious thing ever. Because ofcourse to us desert area = black/brown humans come from there, as It did with Redguards.

    All It takes for Blizzard Is to explain that, but sadly they don't make any explenations of lore unless It's a novel that you buy, a chronocles book that you buy or an extra quest or two that you need a sub and expansion paid for to do. Now Elder Scrolls was smart they pre-established such things because... well OBVIOUSLY any good story teller will establish these things, not to a detail but atleast rough idea of where and when these people came in here and It's up to the people to connect the dots later.

    It's perfectly reasonable to ask this of Blizzard, so where do these asian/black humans come from, what's their kingdom you're going to make up like? I bet you Tel'abim will be like the arabian-inspired island kingdom with a Sultan and everything, popped out of nowhere and Blizz will tell us It's been there all along, obviously! And that'd be fine, If they just -explaln- it, It's too vague and un-storyteller like to just say "Well they're all mixed together" Imean sure that could be true, but at some point in history they were NOT mixed and all had their interesting fun origin story and we'd like to hear that.

    But then Blizzard wants us to believe fat humans are a race and nation specific thing, so whatever. Why am I looking for good storytellers in Blizzard amiright?
    Permabanned on WoW since April 14th 2015, main acc I had since vanilla gone and trashed for no good reason, 6+ years later still banned with more appeals resulting in my BATTLENET games being suspended for a month eachtime I try making TICKETS because I'm asking for help with the perma ban. Blizzard has stopped caring for their first veteran players and would rather we leave, considering the Lawsuit, can you afford to keep peps banned even for so long under questionable circumstances?

  13. #173
    blizzard announces this

    pre gamergate
    " oh this is great now people who roll human can look like themselves"

    post gamergate:

    "more marxist sjw agenda, this dosent exist in LoRE, i am so against the offended triggers sjws i am making 100 articles on how awful this SJW change is and how much i dislike it because i feel like it personally hurts me!"

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Slau View Post
    It is not a dogwhistle because i only mean excplicitly what i said and not herp derp i dont want asians in wow. I DO WANT ASIANS in wow, It is good to have more customisation options. And i am sorry i confused you with the other guy who said there is no lore stated there is no lore that only white people X. My sicnere apologies for the confusion.

    Note: Fair skinned humans do have a lore justification because they descend from the Vrykul who are also fair skinned (as far as i am aware anyway) but i took back my statement of the melting pot several posts ago. Now i think due to how wow works it is possible that there were other varieties of Vrykul in the beginning and that is how humans originated. Still doesnt explain why we havent seen the asians up to this point though.
    Eh, I guess if you're saying that the lack of justification isn't a criteria for exclusion I don't really have a problem with that. Not gonna lie though, I think the real reason why we haven't seen other ethnicities up until now is because when the game was made they weren't included (or given a lore justification) due to a lack of foresight. Given that, I really think that it's totally acceptable to just retcon the whole thing and say that humans were always diverse; there have always been *some* options, so including more is probably in the spirit of what was originally intended anyway.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    blizzard announces this

    pre gamergate
    " oh this is great now people who roll human can look like themselves"

    post gamergate:

    "more marxist sjw agenda, this dosent exist in LoRE, i am so against the offended triggers sjws i am making 100 articles on how awful this SJW change is and how much i dislike it because i feel like it personally hurts me!"
    That particular event is only referenced directly by a select group of people...

    just gonna say that.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    All of that and not a single source that states all humans are white, yet still you argue that there can't be <x> ethnicity. The vast majority of things in-game are so because of gameplay/convenience reasons nothing more, so just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    There is no retcon. Retcon means a change to the existing lore, I will ask you again: please cite the source that says there are only white humans.

    There are no genes in wow, I already addressed this in a post you quoted. As it stands with the exception of fel/void/arcane corruption there is no explanation whatsoever for variation of appearance. Or are you assuming that genes exist? So you can assume genes (a concept highly irregular to high fantasy settings) exist but ethnic minorities don't? You're a joke.

    Having a different opinion doesn't make you bigoted. Having an opinion saying that ethnic minorities shouldn't be included unless they meet an arbitrary criteria set by you does. The inclusion of an 'asian' human doesn't require any more justification than the inclusion of a 'european' human, unless humans have been specifically described as being only european - which they haven't.
    1. I agree there is no lore source written on that. My statement was purely from the matter of not having them in game for so long - which made me assume there either werent any or they were living somewhere else. Please note i have said about asians not about black/brown. I have since the beginning said that black/brown people were always in wow. Please stop misrepresenting this as "only white people".
    2. It is a retcon only if there is no reason given for it - honestly it is enough for me to have a reason as - there were different Vrykul back in the old times, Asians lived on an island in the south seas or even a continent (sigh we get so many of them that one more cant be bad).
    3. I actually coneded this argument several posts ago - i agree with you now that meltingpot is possible due to different varieties of humans coexisting for several thousand years. As such either azeroth genetics dont exist or they work very differently from our world. So yeah you have convinced me it makes sense to have them live together . (Please note i usually assume that a fantasy world works like our world unless excplicitly stated otherwise - it turned out i am wrong on genetics in wow.
    4. I have nothing against them even being changed with magic or just being that way from the start - i just wanna know if there is an lore/story connected to it or is it just bad storywriting. Countrary to what you think about me being a joke. I do not think asians would require any lore reason to exist if that was this way from the start of wow - i just want to know why we havent seen any up to this point. Again black/brown humans always were here (although new character models are for some weird reason more light skinned than the older ones) so they need no justification for being here. Again i conceded my miconception on genetics several posts ago.
    5. I am not against including them in the game and i have never said so. You are assuming things i have never said or written. I think having more options in an RPG game is a good thing - and having a possibility of playing something new is cool. The reason you dont get is that if blizzard decided to suddenly introduce lets say purple humans i would want to know where are they from (corrupted by the void perhaps?). So no i am not against including them in the game - it is clear that you all think i dogwhistle and say things i dont even mean to say - i just want to say i am trying to be as fair reading into your arguments as possible and dont assume a dogwhistle. Can i ask you to do the same and respect people you disagree with?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Slau View Post
    That is actually true - so i take back my statement about melting pot - it seems there were always black and fair skinned humans in stormwind.
    What about asians though - are we supposed to just accept they were always here? Kul Tirans look different but they come from their island - do asians have an island nation somewhere in the south seas?
    Is it really a stretch that they were always there? Black Stormwind humans don't come from a special island- they appear to just be ordinary Stormwind natives. I don't see whats so unbelievable that there are asian-looking humans there as well, especially since you could argue that the lack of up to date graphics just meant we didn't notice them.

  18. #178
    Many things has always been in the game universe, but it took a while before it was actually in the game.
    We've always had dark skin options, but with caucasian face structures. A halfarsed attempt to have all the real world human races included.
    I see no harm in getting more customization options. I hope/assume that we can combine white skin with those new hair options. i always wanted a buzzcut, instead of bald.

  19. #179
    Herald of the Titans Z3ROR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryWithTheWeatherReport View Post
    From the Akavir Continent to the East if the other side of Azeroth theory is true.
    What if this Shadowlands expansion serves as a bridge to connect to that continent in the expansion after it. That would be cool. That we learn in the Shadowlands on how to get there.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Is it really a stretch that they were always there? Black Stormwind humans don't come from a special island- they appear to just be ordinary Stormwind natives. I don't see whats so unbelievable that there are asian-looking humans there as well, especially since you could argue that the lack of up to date graphics just meant we didn't notice them.
    That is a good one . So the actual lore reason is that the barber shop was in beta xD.

    But to put it more simply i could get behind that if that was the official reason given if they also changed the vrykul story to accomodate that (ergo different kinds of vrykul for different kinds of humans) - remember Vrykul are titan constructs so they could have just been made that way - i would rather just have it being official.

    That said i would still prefer them to be an island nation somewhere - if i had a choice i would make it a second human starting area (sort of like a pandaren one but with different architecture - maybe japanese?) - having an actual island/origin story to explore is always better than just thrwoing things into the game. But yeah i get that they are already making a new starter area - I would honestly be ok with it if they just bothered to explain it at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Many things has always been in the game universe, but it took a while before it was actually in the game.
    We've always had dark skin options, but with caucasian face structures. A halfarsed attempt to have all the real world human races included.
    I see no harm in getting more customization options. I hope/assume that we can combine white skin with those new hair options. i always wanted a buzzcut, instead of bald.
    That is true although i just wanna comment that races in game are not a representation of our world - They are their OWN world - at least that is how i think about it.
    That said it is probably that their tech did not allow them for more customisation back then.

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