The daughter of the sea

[TheRagebear]

damn I thought there were 3 CG cinematics in BfA.

Old Soldier, Lost Honor, Safe Haven, and Reckoning. Anduin and Genn make small appearances in two of them but we know who the focus is on.

[DemonHunter18]

Old Soldier, Lost Honor, Safe Haven, and Reckoning. Anduin and Genn make small appearances in two of them but we know who the focus is on.

LoL and people were mad about giving Jaina 3 in game cinematic cutscenes.

[Feanoro]

LoL and people were mad about giving Jaina 3 in game cinematic cutscenes.

How dare the plot device faction get anything.

[Shiza]

So, what happened to the Alliance story of BFA?

We were talking about Jaina, that we were seeing all over BFA and the loading screen.

She was mad at the Horde and reached out to her father.

Alliance subscriptions are used to finance Horde cinematics.

[Zandalariprelate]

The lesson of Warcraft is that genocide is okay so long as one participant feels sad about it.

Glad you finally understand that. Troll fans have been feeling that way for ages. However the one race I want to see genocided next are the humans, their cast is getting very fat at this point.

[Feanoro]

Glad you finally understand that.

I'm Alliance, I've understood that's the lesson since WC3 excused everything the Horde ever did and fifteen years of WoW have only reinforced it.

Troll fans have been feeling that way for ages.

As soon as the trolls learn to stop consorting with dark powers, eating their loa, and confine their bloodlust to the plot device faction, everything will be dandy for them.

[Scottyjscizzle]

It's hilarious how easily forgiven people are for their crimes in the Warcraft universe. Grom in WoD anyone?

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they gave Arthas a redemption arc in Shadowlands.

At least be actually got killed for his crimes, forgiveness is more palatable when you also get revenge.

[mickybrighteyes]

As soon as the trolls learn to stop consorting with dark powers, eating their loa, and confine their bloodlust to the plot device faction, everything will be dandy for them.

Didn't really work for the Zandalari.

Stormwind's boats crashed their harbor, later sunk zandalari ships, and barged in to raid the treasury and kill the king! There was no eating of Loa or bloodlust directed at anything.

[Feanoro]

Didn't really work for the Zandalari.

Stormwind's boats crashed their harbor, later sunk zandalari ships, and barged in to raid the treasury and kill the king! There was no eating of Loa or bloodlust directed at anything.

Ah, but they can just blame Sylvanas and all is well.

[TheRagebear]

Didn't really work for the Zandalari.

Stormwind's boats crashed their harbor, later sunk zandalari ships, and barged in to raid the treasury and kill the king! There was no eating of Loa or bloodlust directed at anything.

After how many Zandalari plots to revive the great troll empire to wash over the world and two of them were seen escaping with the Horde? During a war of genocide where letting the Horde have such a powerful ally meant the Alliance would be all the more likely to lose?

Like I get that the Alliance does some shady shit (not enough for my tastes, and they never let the players get involved even if we don't want to be lawful good pansies) but a fight against the Horde is a fight for survival. A fight against the Alliance is just putting off the weak wrist-slapping you'll get regardless of how severe your crimes were.

[mickybrighteyes]

After how many Zandalari Zul plots to revive the great troll empire to wash over the world and two of them were seen escaping with the Horde? During a war of genocide where letting the Horde have such a powerful ally meant the Alliance would be all the more likely to lose?

More like Zul pulling shit than the Zandalari and the whole horde ally thing was entirely because the alliance wouldn't leave them alone and killed the King... i mean really was Rastakhan about to really bend the knee to Sylvanas JUST because Talanji came back?

Like I get that the Alliance does some shady shit (not enough for my tastes, and they never let the players get involved even if we don't want to be lawful good pansies) but a fight against the Horde is a fight for survival. A fight against the Alliance is just putting off the weak wrist-slapping you'll get regardless of how severe your crimes were.

I would agree here but it seems the alliance likes to mobilize forces and strong arm people just to keep things going their way. Even during times of "peace"

[Feanoro]

More like Zul pulling shit than the Zandalari and the whole horde ally thing was entirely because the alliance wouldn't leave them alone and killed the King... i mean really was Rastakhan about to really bend the knee to Sylvanas JUST because Talanji came back?

Please demonstrate where the Alliance knew that Zul didn't represent the Zandalari... you know, aside from the ships, troops, supplies, and aid that a king normally gives a traitor to get him out of the way instead of just lawfully executing him. Nothing on you, but it's one of the weakest points in the Zandalari story.

I would agree here but it seems the alliance likes to mobilize forces and strong arm people just to keep things going their way. Even during times of "peace"

It's pretty normal to protect your interest and try to see that events favor you, yes, especially when the alternative is being exterminated.

[mickybrighteyes]

Please demonstrate where the Alliance knew that Zul didn't represent the Zandalari... you know, aside from the ships, troops, supplies, and aid that a king normally gives a traitor to get him out of the way instead of just lawfully executing him. Nothing on you, but it's one of the weakest points in the Zandalari story.

They didn't, but then again... SI:7... the 'greatest' military intelligence organization on the face of Azeroth to back a single faction... has been fucking things up for awhile. They didn't even know they walked everyone into a trap at Broken Shore. Never seemed to bother properly gathering intel and outsourcing that position to mercs. They didn't even know the Zandalari weren't actually allying with the horde.

In General Alliance intelligence has been a massive joke

It's pretty normal to protect your interest and try to see that events favor you, yes, especially when the alternative is being exterminated.

Except the 'extermination' part is not at all on the table at times.

Ironforge regime change? better go assassinate the upstart and put their own guy in charge...

Horde not rolling over in this war we declared? Better go kidnap Thrall and pray that's enough.

Goblins doing things in some area we don't control? FUCK THEM! Nothing good comes out of there anyway!

I mean yeah I get that the horde has never been the kind to back down from a fight, but the Alliance wasn't the ones threatened with deliberate and outright destruction until the BFA storyline and the magical nukes that never amounted to anything after the stories' onset.

[Darththeo]

Old Soldier, Lost Honor, Safe Haven, and Reckoning. Anduin and Genn make small appearances in two of them but we know who the focus is on.

Anduin makes more than a "small appearance" in Lost Honor. I would even argue he is the main character in that one.

Also, it felt like the CGI ones were "Let's see what Saurfang is doing now." overall ... so I get your point, but you are factually wrong about Anduin being a "small appearance." Genn's in Lost Honor could be view as such, not Anduin.

So I agree that the Horde got representation in the CGI trailers and the Alliance was not given it's due if you compare it as Horde vs Alliance, but the CGI cinematics were the story of Saurfang during BFA.

[Feanoro]

They didn't, but then again... SI:7... the 'greatest' military intelligence organization on the face of Azeroth to back a single faction... has been fucking things up for awhile. They didn't even know they walked everyone into a trap at Broken Shore. Never seemed to bother properly gathering intel and outsourcing that position to mercs. They didn't even know the Zandalari weren't actually allying with the horde.

In General Alliance intelligence has been a massive joke

Blaming them for Broken Shore when the demons are led by "The Deceiver" is pushing it a bit.

Except the 'extermination' part is not at all on the table at times.

Just WC1, WC2, Garrosh, Sylvanas... Yeah, THIS time we're perfectly safe.

Ironforge regime change? better go assassinate the upstart and put their own guy in charge...

Everything around the Blue Warchief was fucking stupid. No argument here.

Horde not rolling over in this war we declared? Better go kidnap Thrall and pray that's enough.

The one that was in response to Horde provocations? Let's capture the leader instead of more bloodshed. Nah, the only acceptable response is clearly "mountains of skulls and rivers of blood".

Goblins doing things in some area we don't control? FUCK THEM! Nothing good comes out of there anyway!

Given that even Azeroth doesn't like goblins, they're barely trusted by the Horde, utterly destroy every area they touch, and clearly have some scheme in mind in Silithus where a giant Titanic sword just appeared, seems like a good idea to keep an eye on them.

I mean yeah I get that the horde has never been the kind to back down from a fight, but the Alliance wasn't the ones threatened with deliberate and outright destruction until the BFA storyline and the magical nukes that never amounted to anything after the stories' onset.

Except during every single war, sure. I'll agree with how poorly Azerite was handled.

[Fistfighter]

She decided it is finally time to settle down into a normal life.

just like Thrall, until the writers need her again

[mickybrighteyes]

Blaming them for Broken Shore when the demons are led by "The Deceiver" is pushing it a bit.

I'm not blaming them for broken shore... I'm calling out how bad their intelligence agency has been run of late

Just WC1, WC2, Garrosh, Sylvanas... Yeah, THIS time we're perfectly safe.

The alliance... wait as I was... STORMWIND has the largest and most advanced army in the known world to date. It's safe. The horde is a half beaten stray dog that was already beaten into submission without the full force of the stormwind alone.

Everything around the Blue Warchief was fucking stupid. No argument here.

I was actually talking about Moira... when Varian and a strike team went in to take over ironforge.

The one that was in response to Horde provocations? Let's capture the leader instead of more bloodshed. Nah, the only acceptable response is clearly "mountains of skulls and rivers of blood".

The one that Varian declared in the undercity during the scourge invasion and wrathgate arc. The one that carried through the culmination of the wrath storyline and made up the bulk of the cata arc on into MoP.

Given that even Azeroth doesn't like goblins, they're barely trusted by the Horde, utterly destroy every area they touch, and clearly have some scheme in mind in Silithus where a giant Titanic sword just appeared, seems like a good idea to keep an eye on them.

Yes, but that doesn't excuse the world police vibe of traveling across the globe and acting like their the authority everyone must bend the knee to.

Except during every single war, sure.

The alliance was threatened because of internal issues more than external forces.


Beginning of MoP had the horde BARELY even with stormwind with respect to military. BFA is an odd case cause somehow the horde had the drive to nuke 2 cities for plot reasons and every sign was showing Azerite super weapons around the corner somehow.

[TheRagebear]

They didn't, but then again... SI:7... the 'greatest' military intelligence organization on the face of Azeroth to back a single faction... has been fucking things up for awhile. They didn't even know they walked everyone into a trap at Broken Shore. Never seemed to bother properly gathering intel and outsourcing that position to mercs. They didn't even know the Zandalari weren't actually allying with the horde.

In General Alliance intelligence has been a massive joke

Shaw was also replaced by a Dreadlord during the beginning of Legion who was subverting Alliance intelligence, though I believe that was a Rogue class hall quest so I can understand not everyone would know it. Nevermind that they (again) made them all into bumbling morons so that Sylvanas' preschool-level plan would work and Teldrassil would burn. It's almost like the Alliance is a plot device for another faction...

That said the evidence against Talanji and Zul was flimsy, all they knew was that they found two Zandalari trolls (and later) that the Horde helped them escape. At that point the damage was done and they had to commit. ... Up until the writers decided they didn't want to commit, thereby extending the war for much longer than it should have been after Dazar'alor, but like I said, plot device faction.

Except the 'extermination' part is not at all on the table at times.

Ironforge regime change? better go assassinate the upstart and put their own guy in charge...

Horde not rolling over in this war we declared? Better go kidnap Thrall and pray that's enough.

Goblins doing things in some area we don't control? FUCK THEM! Nothing good comes out of there anyway!

I mean yeah I get that the horde has never been the kind to back down from a fight, but the Alliance wasn't the ones threatened with deliberate and outright destruction until the BFA storyline and the magical nukes that never amounted to anything after the stories' onset.

A coup by elements that once (and seemingly still did) serve the Old Gods? Naturally restoring the proper heads was necessary. Or are Cairne and Garrosh suddenly monsters for overthrowing the "regime change" in Thunder Bluff?

The rest is more grey but no, BfA wasn't the first time the Horde had threatened to basically eradicate the Alliance. Garrosh was just (somehow) less cartoonish about it than Sylvanas.

[mickybrighteyes]

Shaw was also replaced by a Dreadlord during the beginning of Legion who was subverting Alliance intelligence, though I believe that was a Rogue class hall quest so I can understand not everyone would know it. Nevermind that they (again) made them all into bumbling morons so that Sylvanas' preschool-level plan would work and Teldrassil would burn. It's almost like the Alliance is a plot device for another faction...

The rogue order quest ended in a very poorly concealed fight in Stormwind city. I'm not entirely sure if they bothered thinking about fallout for that

A coup by elements that once (and seemingly still did) serve the Old Gods? Naturally restoring the proper heads was necessary. Or are Cairne and Garrosh suddenly monsters for overthrowing the "regime change" in Thunder Bluff?

The difference with Cairne and Garrosh.. I think... is that Cairne was working with leadership for Thunderbluff while the Ironforge example was Varian and SI:7 working with no other outlets. It is a slightly different scenario that changes things.

The rest is more grey but no, BfA wasn't the first time the Horde had threatened to basically eradicate the Alliance. Garrosh was just (somehow) less cartoonish about it than Sylvanas.

The horde has never had the ability to outright eradicate the alliance. They had the ability to make the Alliance think about whether or not they wanted to fight... but the alliance has always had the numbers and tech to outright end the horde if they wished. Cata into MoP when Garrosh pushed the horde up like 3 tech tiers (wood and hides to iron?) was the only time they BARELY managed to catch up and pressure anything important.

every other time it was small skirmishes someplace relatively unimportant.

[Varodoc]

Please demonstrate where the Alliance knew that Zul didn't represent the Zandalari... you know, aside from the ships, troops, supplies, and aid that a king normally gives a traitor to get him out of the way instead of just lawfully executing him. Nothing on you, but it's one of the weakest points in the Zandalari story.

It's pretty normal to protect your interest and try to see that events favor you, yes, especially when the alternative is being exterminated.

Zul was representing the Zandalari though. Rastakhan disapproved of his decision to resurrect the Thunder King, but it was Rastakhan who dispatched emissaries to the various troll cities in an effort to unite them back in Cataclysm.