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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Which alliance members are you talking about?
    Stood aside for what?
    As for Jaina he was in love with her. I find it hard to believe that he would have fought her, and not punishing the dudes who helped an Orc to slaughter an entire city.
    Magni kept sending troops north, wildhammer dwarfs, Gnomes kept supporting Garithos and nobles of stormwind did too and them just accepting Kael's and belfs executiton not opposing it and stopping to support garithos is same as accepting it and steping aside.

    Kael blamed Jaina even in dalaran about Arthases actions when scourge marched there and Kael first and foremost priority is his people and what Jaina did in dalaran to innocent blood elves during mop would cause Kael to see similarities in Jaina and Garithos.

    Kael seems to be pretty okay with orcs as he was allied with them in outland for the good of his people.

  2. #102
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Magni kept sending troops north, wildhammer dwarfs, Gnomes kept supporting Garithos and nobles of stormwind did too and them just accepting Kael's and belfs executiton not opposing it and stopping to support garithos is same as accepting it and steping aside.

    Kael blamed Jaina even in dalaran about Arthases actions when scourge marched there and Kael first and foremost priority is his people and what Jaina did in dalaran to innocent blood elves during mop would cause Kael to see similarities in Jaina and Garithos.

    Kael seems to be pretty okay with orcs as he was allied with them in outland for the good of his people.
    Did Magni have any idea of what was going on with Kael and Garithos there? Do you have any evidence about that? And even if they knew about the warcrimes of Garithos, would that be a reason to stop trying to save the humans from the scourge?
    Kael was in love with Jaina, ofc he would be mad at her and took this opportunity to guilty her. This is what he says about her later in Northrend : "You've taken everything I ever cared for, Arthas".
    Your sunreavers weren't that innocent. Again, you miss the whole context.
    And Kael couldn't stand Illidan. He had no choice but to side with the Nagas and him in the first place. I doubt he was in any capacity to convince Illidan of not working with some fel orcs (who had nothing to do with the ones who destroyed his kingdom) considering the situation.
    And finally, Kael had cordial relations with Tyrande. Who almost gave her life for him and his group of Blood Elves. This is perhaps the real reason why he was turned into a loot pinata. Imagine Kael genociding the night elves with some Orcs and Undeads now.
    Last edited by eurojust; 2019-11-09 at 10:16 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    yeah... no... umbric sort of lost any sense of 'pragmatic' when he killed a bunch of people for the color of grass...
    What is this even a reference to?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    What is this even a reference to?
    the quest "I Take No Pleasure In This". Umbric sees Galywix's palace and has a quest to crash the party... to include wrecking the place, the guards, and the guests. He says such things as:

    A pleasant patch of nature... ruined by swaths of tacky artificial grass.

    Overall it's among the most unhinged quests around and there is no follow on as to WTH was up.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Did Magni have any idea of what was going on with Kael and Garithos there? Do you have any evidence about that? And even if they knew about the warcrimes of Garithos, would that be a reason to stop trying to save the humans from the scourge?
    Kael was in love with Jaina, ofc he would be mad at her and took this opportunity to guilty her. This is what he says about her later in Northrend : "You've taken everything I ever cared for, Arthas".
    Your sunreavers weren't that innocent. Again, you miss the whole context.
    And Kael couldn't stand Illidan. He had no choice but to side with the Nagas and him in the first place. I doubt he was in any capacity to convince Illidan of not working with some fel orcs (who had nothing to do with the ones who destroyed his kingdom) considering the situation.
    And finally, Kael had cordial relations with Tyrande. Who almost gave her life for him and his group of Blood Elves. This is perhaps the real reason why he was turned into a loot pinata. Imagine Kael genociding the night elves with some Orcs and Undeads now.
    Later novels specified that rest of alliance knew about it but prioritized the alliance itself which still makes the just a guilty as garithos.

    Yeah I know but love can easily turn into hate and only handful of sunreavers were responsible and from horde PoV aethas walked in on it at the end and his life was threatened as such does it give Jaina right to try and slaughter any sunreaver who didn't go to prison without an explanation as such ingame you can even see if you play as horde Jaina jist killing cowering sunreavers.

    Garithos said to kael in chronicles 3 if you accept help or work with naga and his kin again it will be considered treason for you and your followers. as such Garithos weas legally right but still it would it diminishes how grave the act was from belf pov and purge of dalaran wasn't even legally holding as to punish or banish member of the six the kirin tor council of six must vote for it and what Jaina did in the end was more bloody than what Garithos as he failed and still belfs hate him.

    What indicates kael couldn't stand illidan after he met him? he only started working with the legion as illidan ignored him for years and after he started working with naga we have no indications of kael hating them.

    Shandris have fought in trolls wars helping high elves and later those same blood elves had not problem trying to kill nelfs as such Kael wouldn't really have problem with it as he was prepared to kill sons of lothar and specifically khadgar in outland to whom he had pretty good relations during the novel tides of darkness.

    and Yeah I would he worked together with demons, naga, fel orcs and legion.

  6. #106
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    It'd be hilarious to get a cinematic where Kael'thas, Alleria, Vareesa, and Umbric just smugly walk down the streets of Silvermoon assblasting anyone who dares deny them a chance to speak with Lor'themar and (I guess) Thalyssra.

    I'd like it for the memes only.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingForBlizzcon View Post
    It'd be hilarious to get a cinematic where Kael'thas, Alleria, Vareesa, and Umbric just smugly walk down the streets of Silvermoon assblasting anyone who dares deny them a chance to speak with Lor'themar and (I guess) Thalyssra.

    I'd like it for the memes only.
    Thalyssra would probably find a lot more in common with Kael'thas and Umbric than with Theron, to be honest.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    and Yeah I would he worked together with demons, naga, fel orcs and legion.
    Again you are missing the context. He was kinda forced to work with them (he was forced to escape to Outland, and he was forced to follow Illidan because of the magic addiction).
    Blood Elves with Horde in BFA is more than some alliance of convenience. It's deep, it's about embracing the Horde culture and following your warchief no matter what. Imo Kael (just like Lorthemar initially planned to do) would quit the Horde at the first occasion just like the Helves did with the Alliance after wc2.

  9. #109
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    Thalyssra would probably find a lot more in common with Kael'thas and Umbric than with Theron, to be honest.
    yeah, but Theron is in a relationship with Thalyssra, at the given moment.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingForBlizzcon View Post
    yeah, but Theron is in a relationship with Thalyssra, at the given moment.
    Well really Theron doesn't have feelings for Thalyssra, it's Thalyssra who is thirsty as fuck. It wouldn't surprise me if Theron friendzones her in 8.3.5.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Again you are missing the context. He was kinda forced to work with them (he was forced to escape to Outland, and he was forced to follow Illidan because of the magic addiction).
    Blood Elves with Horde in BFA is more than some alliance of convenience. It's deep, it's about embracing the Horde culture and following your warchief no matter what. Imo Kael (just like Lorthemar initially planned to do) would quit the Horde at the first occasion just like the Helves did with the Alliance after wc2.
    He could have betrayed illidan at anytime when he had tempest keep but he kept his loyalty to illidan and KJ had to work tirelessly to break it.
    Blood elves didn't have numbers to survive alone and alliance of convince has many times began real alliances like with the zandalari and the mogu.

    As such because what alliance have done to belfs kael wouldn't side with them as kael first and foremost aim was to help his people and he is a vengeful person as such alliance wouldn't be farther on his list of allies than the horde. though tbh belfs should have be neither horde nor alliance.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    He could have betrayed illidan at anytime when he had tempest keep but he kept his loyalty to illidan and KJ had to work tirelessly to break it.
    Blood elves didn't have numbers to survive alone and alliance of convince has many times began real alliances like with the zandalari and the mogu.

    As such because what alliance have done to belfs kael wouldn't side with them as kael first and foremost aim was to help his people and he is a vengeful person as such alliance wouldn't be farther on his list of allies than the horde. though tbh belfs should have be neither horde nor alliance.
    I never said that Kael would want to join Alliance. Just saying that he would be disgusted with Horde as well. I wasn't aware that the Alliance knew about Garithos. It makes little sense to keep supporting some racist warlord who hates elves, especially when you are a Dwarf.
    And yea, you probably right about Kael relation with Illidan. He was probably loyal to Illidan at some point. But again i don't see him genociding night elves "for the horde".

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    I never said that Kael would want to join Alliance. Just saying that he would be disgusted with Horde as well. I wasn't aware that the Alliance knew about Garithos. It makes little sense to keep supporting some racist warlord who hates elves, especially when you are a Dwarf.
    And yea, you probably right about Kael relation with Illidan. He was probably loyal to Illidan at some point. But again i don't see him genociding night elves "for the horde".
    If kael returned he would side with his people meaning blood elves and about the horde most of them who killed helfs during wc2 have die.... well saurfang at that point was sort of middle aged man and most orchiss population in dreanor were artificial made older as such those who actually did something to helfs are a) die (old age or battle) b) so few remaing or c) never did join the current horde.

    wc2 horde was made of Blackrock, Dragonmaw, black tooth grin, twilights hammer, stormreaver and bleeding hollow. Most of old school blackrock would be extremely old as artifical aging was used there the heaviest because of blackhand and secondly half joined rend half thrall and later cata keeps talking how most of blackrock sided with garrosh. Dragonmaw most sided with Garrosh again, Black tooth grin sided with rend and suruvivors followed Garrosh to grave, Twilights hammer and stormrreaver do I even need to explain? and bleeding hollow is pretty much wiped out before wc3 and its survivors WERE part of the fel horde.

    As such Kael wouldn't really have anything personal against anyone else but an handful of old orcs.

    Supporting Garithos was then supporting lordaeron and technically he was highest remaining leader of lordaeron and lordaeron used to be the leader of the alliance.

    Kael would most likely choose work with the horde as he had high respect for Sylvanas and dark mirror mentioned Kael actually loved sylvanas and "desired her hand" so Sylvanas as warchief at that point really wouldn't be that far fetched Kaels slaughtered wardens like animals and helped Illidan to hunt them down like animals. Kael wouldn't really be "for the horde" he would have being either "for sin'dorei" as forsakens at that point had helped Blood elves alot on reclaiming their home land from amani and scourge and sort story even descriped that blood elves needed to forsaken support just before the campaign against the lich king started.

    belf pop is 10% helf population at the start of tbc they had to fight and bloody war reonquer their lands and then a civil war during the events of sunwell patch.
    blood elf "maximun" lifespan which we know is 7k meaning they are extremely slow to mate and have children as thus their numbers wouldn't be back in a long time as such Blood elves would still need either horde or the alliance for a long time and kael would know it as such its more likely he would choose horde.

  14. #114
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    With theories as crazy and weird as these, its no wonder void elves feel at home with the Alliance
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    the quest "I Take No Pleasure In This". Umbric sees Galywix's palace and has a quest to crash the party... to include wrecking the place, the guards, and the guests. He says such things as:

    A pleasant patch of nature... ruined by swaths of tacky artificial grass.

    Overall it's among the most unhinged quests around and there is no follow on as to WTH was up.
    I mean I feel like you were looking at quotes and trying your hardest not to look at the context surrounding them. It had nothing to do with the grass.

    The point was that the goblins are led by a leader who lives in extreme luxury despite the rough times his people are going through. That Gallywix is crass and tasteless; Gallywix's easy dismissal of nature in lieu of fake grass shows a lot about his tacky personality, preferring gold and artificial beauty to natural beauty. There were several other quotes, many of them talking about how he always disliked Gallywix - it showed that he really did have disdain for the horde beyond just the blood elves. I dunno man. I never felt hung up over this quest.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    I mean I feel like you were looking at quotes and trying your hardest not to look at the context surrounding them. It had nothing to do with the grass.

    The point was that the goblins are led by a leader who lives in extreme luxury despite the rough times his people are going through. That Gallywix is crass and tasteless; Gallywix's easy dismissal of nature in lieu of fake grass shows a lot about his tacky personality, preferring gold and artificial beauty to natural beauty. There were several other quotes, many of them talking about how he always disliked Gallywix - it showed that he really did have disdain for the horde beyond just the blood elves. I dunno man. I never felt hung up over this quest.
    And the killing of the civilians?

    edit:

    it's just a bit odd how the sun bathers, waitresses, and golfers were valid targets for the quest and no one bats an eye.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2019-11-10 at 12:37 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    If kael returned he would side with his people meaning blood elves and about the horde most of them who killed helfs during wc2 have die.... well saurfang at that point was sort of middle aged man and most orchiss population in dreanor were artificial made older as such those who actually did something to helfs are a) die (old age or battle) b) so few remaing or c) never did join the current horde.

    wc2 horde was made of Blackrock, Dragonmaw, black tooth grin, twilights hammer, stormreaver and bleeding hollow. Most of old school blackrock would be extremely old as artifical aging was used there the heaviest because of blackhand and secondly half joined rend half thrall and later cata keeps talking how most of blackrock sided with garrosh. Dragonmaw most sided with Garrosh again, Black tooth grin sided with rend and suruvivors followed Garrosh to grave, Twilights hammer and stormrreaver do I even need to explain? and bleeding hollow is pretty much wiped out before wc3 and its survivors WERE part of the fel horde.

    As such Kael wouldn't really have anything personal against anyone else but an handful of old orcs.

    Supporting Garithos was then supporting lordaeron and technically he was highest remaining leader of lordaeron and lordaeron used to be the leader of the alliance.

    Kael would most likely choose work with the horde as he had high respect for Sylvanas and dark mirror mentioned Kael actually loved sylvanas and "desired her hand" so Sylvanas as warchief at that point really wouldn't be that far fetched Kaels slaughtered wardens like animals and helped Illidan to hunt them down like animals. Kael wouldn't really be "for the horde" he would have being either "for sin'dorei" as forsakens at that point had helped Blood elves alot on reclaiming their home land from amani and scourge and sort story even descriped that blood elves needed to forsaken support just before the campaign against the lich king started.

    belf pop is 10% helf population at the start of tbc they had to fight and bloody war reonquer their lands and then a civil war during the events of sunwell patch.
    blood elf "maximun" lifespan which we know is 7k meaning they are extremely slow to mate and have children as thus their numbers wouldn't be back in a long time as such Blood elves would still need either horde or the alliance for a long time and kael would know it as such its more likely he would choose horde.
    No, i don't see him worshipping the faction that almost destroyed his kingdom and showed no remorse for that. "Hey let's meet the WARchief in ORGRIMmar".
    Sylvanas only became warchief much later and i doubt that he would be loyal to her after what she did. And again i don't care about that fic of the Nathanos self-insert, Kael was always in love with Jaina.
    He also wasn't there when Illidan killed Maiev's wardens. There's no way he would support a genocidal maniac against people like Jaina or Tyrande.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    No, i don't see him worshipping the faction that almost destroyed his kingdom and showed no remorse for that. "Hey let's meet the WARchief in ORGRIMmar".
    Sylvanas only became warchief much later and i doubt that he would be loyal to her after what she did. And again i don't care about that fic of the Nathanos self-insert, Kael was always in love with Jaina.
    He also wasn't there when Illidan killed Maiev's wardens. There's no way he would support a genocidal maniac against people like Jaina or Tyrande.
    If Sylvanas was still in power I could see Kael at least coming to the table to see what the fuck was going on. But I honestly don't see Kael caring too much about a murdurous vengeful tyrande.

    I also feel that if Kael did any amount of digging into the recent history of Dalaran, if he ever got in touch with some of the more recent history, would drastically change some of his thoughts on things.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    I mean I feel like you were looking at quotes and trying your hardest not to look at the context surrounding them. It had nothing to do with the grass.

    The point was that the goblins are led by a leader who lives in extreme luxury despite the rough times his people are going through. That Gallywix is crass and tasteless; Gallywix's easy dismissal of nature in lieu of fake grass shows a lot about his tacky personality, preferring gold and artificial beauty to natural beauty. There were several other quotes, many of them talking about how he always disliked Gallywix - it showed that he really did have disdain for the horde beyond just the blood elves. I dunno man. I never felt hung up over this quest.
    The Alliance went to the pleasure palace to assassinate Gallywix. Not really sure what "killing people who bought the sales pitch that GPP is a cool vacation area while also slaughtering the underpaid waitstaff" had to do with the plot, they weren't exactly leaping to Gallywix's defense.

    Umbric seemed really bitter about big houses and those who he considered "the elite," which is kind of silly considering elves are almost always about massive, decadent, overdecorated houses and elitism.
    Last edited by Bwgmon; 2019-11-10 at 12:42 AM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwgmon View Post
    The Alliance went to the pleasure palace to assassinate Gallywix. Not really sure what "killing people who bought the sales pitch that GPP is a cool vacation area while also slaughtering the underpaid waitstaff" had to do with the plot, they weren't exactly leaping to Gallywix's defense.

    Umbric seemed really bitter about big houses and those who he considered "the elite," which is kind of silly considering elves are almost always about massive, decadent, overdecorated houses and elitism.
    prolly sad about how he got kicked out of his homeland and moved to a rock floating in the void under a gazebo.

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