Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[SecretAgent]

I dont like this approach at all
Its lazy , currently we have 36spec each with defined purpose
Class-identity is achieved by having more abilities for all spec THAT MAKES SENSE ONLY
abilities which define classes :
Traps for hunter/root for druids/polymorph for mages/etc

Its not by giving fireball to frost mages which dont make sense as a frostmage to use it

Give more and new class-themed abilities baseline and not spec-themed ones which is already there

[fatgunn]

If you don't like having extra buttons you can press sometimes then don't fucking use them.
No one is forcing you to use Curse utility and no one will care if you don't, as we see people on the daily that don't realize that certain buttons exist.

"REEE I DON'T DO THIS THEREFORE NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THIS."
You can straight fuck off with that logic, mate.

1. I'm not gonna gimp myself by not using abilities that help me perform my role. So if they're there I have to use them.

2. I said put them in PvP talents, which means they are still available to those who want them. Seems a lot better compromise than your idea of "I LIKE THIS THING SO EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT."

[Sinaa]

Personally I'm not hyped, but not because I don't miss the abilities that I've had in the past, but rather that what Blizzard said about shadow priest regaining flash heal sounds merely cosmetic. What's the point of having flash heal, if I don't have the mana to use it more than 3 times at once. Unless they gave back mana as a meaningful resource to dps-ing hybrids this makes very little difference. There are things that hurt more than not having flash heal, like regular Dispel, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[Gungnir]

My god then rename those abilities at least.

Iceblock->plasma barrier
Frost nova->flame hands
And so on

It's just ruining the fantasy

Either you have those abilities and more aligned towards class fantasy, or you don't have those abilities and are more aligned towards spec fantasy.
Because if you just go throwing all the of the abilities under different names, not only are you basically taking a dump on some of the more iconic spells, it also opens up the dialogue from idiots all over the globe being like 'oh fire mages get Flame Hands(or whatever) and Mirage Step(blink or whatever) but my destro warlock doesn't even though he also uses fire'.

I don't think we need to basis for those idiots to stand upon regarding wanting to homogenize every spec to have all the tools.

1. I'm not gonna gimp myself by not using abilities that help me perform my role. So if they're there I have to use them.

Then fucking use them and stop whining.

2. I said put them in PvP talents, which means they are still available to those who want them. Seems a lot better compromise than your idea of "I LIKE THIS THING SO EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT."

Or just not do that and add them to the base kit, so warlocks don't feel like anemic pieces of shit to play.
Secondly, "my idea" seem to be Blizzards idea, so you'll have to take that discussion with them. I am sure they'll come around once they hear your argument of "I don't want to deal with it, so fuck off and change it and fuck everyone else".

Brilliant argument, absolutely stellar logic.

Ret played pretty well in MoP, and it had Holy Power. It even had Inquisition and was still okay. The problem isn't the Holy Power, but rather Blizzard's insistence that Ret needs downtime in its rotation. Combine that with the low levels of secondary stats in BfA, especially Haste, and a system that felt fine back then feels like ass now.

The reason why Holy Power is such a shit system is that it is not only archaic as fuck by this point, but at the absolute peak of it you reach the gameplay of 'this feels alright'.
Secondly, you can just outright remove Holy Power and just throw on some cooldowns based on how many GCD's it takes to reach 3HP and it'll play exactly the same without Holy Power even there.

Nearly every newer spec design has some sort of amalgamation between two resource systems, Ret is stuck with a single clunky one.


I can go on and on about how Ret is probably the worst designed spec in the entire game, but that'd be neither here nor there at this point since they won't ever change it.

[Darkguyver2020]

Go to classic, that alone will teach you what a CLASS truly is, not a spec. And hopefully Shadowlands will do a good job at returning class identity.

Classic alone will teach people how NOT to design a class. Bloated spellbooks. Useless niche abilities. Homogenization between the different specs and spells that are outright worthless due to poor implementation/scaling.

I liked the fact that my Unholy DK felt like a completely unique beast compared to his Frost and Blood counterparts. If they roll classes back to the days when they were just incoherent clusterfucks just to appeal to the Classic fantards, I will be so fucking pissed!

[Kralljin]

Blizz has been very good at removing mechanics that made the classes unique which is sad.

Acting like Totems have somehow have been the pillar of Shaman class design is utterly outdated.
They were in Vanilla / TBC, because they brought incredibly powerful buffs, after those buffs have been removed in Wotlk, Totems have been exposed as the terrible mechanic they always were.

They were just your "oh, we have this buff missing" thing, far from a core mechanic.
On top of that, they were worse at their job than regular buffs.
A regular buff, like Blessing of Wisdom was applied and lasted 60 minutes. Period.
Its Totem counterpart (Manaspring) was lost if the Shaman died or you moved out of Range of the Totem, great for fights were the raid was split up or spread very far.

Bottomline, Totems as "permanent" buff mechanic were downright bad and Blizzard was right to remove them in MoP.

This "core" mechanic of the Shaman class had such huge flaws in the modern game (and by that, i mean since Wotlk) that it dragged the Shaman class down as a whole because Blizzard kept using it as an argument to keep Shaman down.

And for Elem shamans to have more totems than elementals(which aren't even totems anymore).

Yes, thank fuck for that.
You know what was so bad about this?
The Elemental was considered a Pet of the Totem, not you.

So, on occassion:
The Elemental refused to attack (and just stood around and did nothing)
After the initial fight, it stood right next to the totem and refused to follow the Shaman, as it was a "pet" of totem.

This spell was literally just a "Totem spell" for the sake of being one, there was absolutely no upside tied to it, there wasn't even anything in terms of mechanics tied to it other than "can't use any other earth / fire totem for one minute".

I seriously miss having a rotation that is longer than 3-4 buttons on most classes to be honest.

Try Ele then, ironically.


I really don't understand this "i like totems" crowd, Totems were the one of the most hated aspect of the Shaman class before they finally nuked them in Legion.
Nobody liked their classes power tied to sticks in the ground with 5hp, that you had to redrop after moving 40+ yards.

[Aradur]

I don't see the appeal in "more class then spec" too....if i play frostmage i want to cast my frostspells...why do i need a fucking fireball? Those "unpruned" skills all just be useless fillers like they were before...

[dcc626]

I do have to admit I'm somewhat sceptical.

When I play Mage I'm a Fire Mage without distinction, I don't play the other specs at all and I feel like the addition of some of these spells seems superfluous... don't get me wrong Arcane Explosion seems nice for a spammable and patented Stealth-B-Gone option but I am without a doubt and unequivocally a fire mage.

I did play a bit in BC and I didn't really know what I was doing but even there I just went full fire tree and only put the fire spells on my bar.

Not sure how much I'm going to enjoy this but maybe if we get some unpruning of abilities that disappeared in the past.

the way i see it is like this: if they take things away i want to use, im stuck. but if they add things i dont want to use, i can just not use them. its the same with corrupted gear - if i want i can cleanse a piece of gear and pretend corruption doesnt exist. i wont do as well as someone who embraces it and works around it - but thats my choice.

i guess choices are all that people are asking for.

- - - Updated - - -

Im not «hyped», as we dont know enough yet.
Some speccs will have more benefits, like firemage being able to slow enemies with frostbolt and arcane explode people out of stealth.
Being a frostmage with a 2 sec cast fireball with a short fireDOT wont be as impactfull.

Healing-speccs mat be more enjoyable to DPS in, and tank-speccs may feel like its more fun.

Survival-hunter and DemonHunters: I cant see how they can unprune thoose.

But quite a few speccs will be more fun and have better utility

demon hunters are probably going to be the least affected. they may have some talents made baseline and new talents added to replace them.

- - - Updated - - -

"Return to class" is just a lame excuse to not have to develop all 3 specs, they can just make one and add a few minor differences. It's less work.

That says enough about Blizzard to know where they stand on WoW. It's in maintenance mode. Put in a minimal amount of effort and still hope to make some cash.

you must be fun at parties.

[Anastacy]

i think it should have been left as it is, but used cosmetic effects to bring back the feeling of using other spec's spells. because i do think it was kinda ridiculous to be pronounced archmage in legion, when legion was the beginning of mage gameplay not reflecting that title at all(an archmage is a master of all schools of arcane magic).

Yet, an Arcane Mage is still better at Arcane Magic than a Frost Mage is, even if both specs could use all of the spells of the other.

[Aggrophobic]

How long did you play WoW? This needs some context, If you haven't played before the era of Cataclysm I can understand you being skeptical of the idea of "Class" as you've never truly known what a class is, but rather a spec with a few doodads shared among the class. Go to classic, that alone will teach you what a CLASS truly is, not a spec. And hopefully Shadowlands will do a good job at returning class identity.

To me, as someone playing 15 years It feels shit to know I've had over 50 abilities and then am restricted to 15 per spec and the other 5 were removed. It felt like my class was butchered, standardized and according to analytics and data alone, was streamlined, not due to player feedback or criticism.

Problem is, the game was shit befor cata in most ways.
Going back to that is not a good idea and it's a clear step backwards both in fun and quality.

I mean you tell him to "go back to classic". Frost mages there has all kinds of spells yet the rostation is just frostbolt... Litteraly just ONE spell.

[Pakheth]

Acting like Totems have somehow have been the pillar of Shaman class design is utterly outdated.
They were in Vanilla / TBC, because they brought incredibly powerful buffs, after those buffs have been removed in Wotlk, Totems have been exposed as the terrible mechanic they always were.

They were just your "oh, we have this buff missing" thing, far from a core mechanic.
On top of that, they were worse at their job than regular buffs.
A regular buff, like Blessing of Wisdom was applied and lasted 60 minutes. Period.
Its Totem counterpart (Manaspring) was lost if the Shaman died or you moved out of Range of the Totem, great for fights were the raid was split up or spread very far.

Bottomline, Totems as "permanent" buff mechanic were downright bad and Blizzard was right to remove them in MoP.

This "core" mechanic of the Shaman class had such huge flaws in the modern game (and by that, i mean since Wotlk) that it dragged the Shaman class down as a whole because Blizzard kept using it as an argument to keep Shaman down.



Yes, thank fuck for that.
You know what was so bad about this?
The Elemental was considered a Pet of the Totem, not you.

So, on occassion:
The Elemental refused to attack (and just stood around and did nothing)
After the initial fight, it stood right next to the totem and refused to follow the Shaman, as it was a "pet" of totem.

This spell was literally just a "Totem spell" for the sake of being one, there was absolutely no upside tied to it, there wasn't even anything in terms of mechanics tied to it other than "can't use any other earth / fire totem for one minute".



Try Ele then, ironically.


I really don't understand this "i like totems" crowd, Totems were the one of the most hated aspect of the Shaman class before they finally nuked them in Legion.
Nobody liked their classes power tied to sticks in the ground with 5hp, that you had to redrop after moving 40+ yards.

Well I liked them but I also liked hunter pet management so I guess I am weird. For me it was part of the class fantasy to pop down a Magma Totem and see my enemies burn. It was a social aspect of it too in raids and dungeons to plan with other shamans on what totems to use so there was no overlap. Totems were also good markers during raids to indicate where people were to stand for ranged and so on. And yeah movement was an issue but that was part of the challenge.

I also play Elem, done so since MoP alongside my hunter. Elem was fun at the end of Legion and then they fucked it up again for BfA, slowing it down, especially by adding the GCD changes and the cooldown to Flame Shock and the removal of Gust of Wind(I miss that movement ability so much).

Resto is the only class that gives me some of the old totem feeling with the healing totems and their impact but I still miss it from the other specs.

[Vankhorne]

No, I don't PvP. I play WoW for PvE content, if i wanted to PvP I'd do it in another game. If Blizz wants to add stuff like curses for PvP players there's already a perfect place to do that PVP TALENTS. You can have all your niche crap sequestered away where I don't have to touch it.

Of course you don't, it was painfully obvious. Oh hey, sure, now we have to waste 3 PvP talent slots with spells we had before as baseline.

Be careful with the extra buttons, you may have a seizure. Might be too much to handle while dragonslaying the scripted boogeymans.

[GMZohar1]

This is a HUGE step forward, so I am excited. Not sure why some people see it as a step backwards, when it is clearly a step forward

[StyxzTheSage]

Been posting about this a lot lately, because it's really annoying to me that the community is clamoring for class OVER spec.

No reason to not have both.

And, having played since BC, I do not at all miss the days were Blizz flat out didn't balance certain specs because the class had other viable options.

The current design is the right course, but they need to properly test and implement the specs, and then promptly and consistently balance them. Letting bad specs languish for two years is the issue. Bringing curses back to locks, or fireball to frost mages won't fix that.

[glowpipe]

Returning to class is not the problem. The problem is that we just gonna get a few pruned abilities back and that seems like it. They said on bcon that it wouldn't be massive changes, and thats really what the classes need. They are shit in bfa and they were shit in legion. Giving outlaw rogues poisons won't fix anything. We need new and meaningful spells and skills and we need a better class gameplay. this i fear will be the third expansion in a row with simple and limited classes like bfa and legion. Where your rotation is like 3-4 buttons and a few cd's

But atleast this might mean they are setting a new baseline they are going to add upon in the future. I am really looking forward to SL, don't get me wrong, but i think the classes gonna be rather shit again

So end of the day, i guess im not that hyped for return of class, but not becuase i liked the old spec identity better, but because i don't think their current plans to return to class will change that much

But no use speculating now really, need to wait for some rounds of beta and see whats happening

[Kalisandra]

Not me. My comfortable actionbar setup is at max as it is, I don't even know where to put the shit coming back next expansion.

Guesd I'll have to start clicking on some abilities because I sure as hell won't have room for them as keybinds.

God I wish I played ret pala or destro lock, their actionbars have huge holes in them, ready to be filled with crap.

Those gaps Ret has? They used to be all filled up, mostly with utility. It's all gone, and playing a Ret is a pale shadow of what it once was.

[StyxzTheSage]

I think spec fantasy is important and it's been awesome having some many varied ways to play, but I don't see why this has to cost class fantasy at all.

Exactly. It doesn't. It's a false dichotmory if I've ever seen one.

Hopefully once we get some alpha data out we'll see what they actually mean by "focus more on classes rather than specs."

Edit: Matter of fact, this wouldn't even be a question if they handled the transition from artifacts to BFA better.

They did all that design work around the artifacts, pulled the system, and did very little to fill the (massive) holes left in some specs.

And now we're to believe that focusing on class identity will fix this or prevent it from happening in the future? They're tying player power into an external system again in SL.

[Kalisandra]

Holy power is the reason I ONLY PLAY HOLY PALADIN. If you want a more Wrath feeling Pally play 2h Holy. Feels so good lol

Except it feels nothing like a Wrath Holy, and if I'm playing a Holy Pally, that's what I want. I want my fast Holy Lights and 100% beacon, mana regen from Judge, and being able to say to a tank that "If it doesn't one-shot you, I've got you", and mean it, because my spells were that fast and that strong.

[Kyphael]

Nope, much prefer spec identity than class identity.

[Kalisandra]

No, I don't PvP. I play WoW for PvE content, if i wanted to PvP I'd do it in another game. If Blizz wants to add stuff like curses for PvP players there's already a perfect place to do that PVP TALENTS. You can have all your niche crap sequestered away where I don't have to touch it.

PvP talents are bloody awful. Half the fun stuff is locked behind that gate, so you can only have it if you turn warmode on or do instanced PvP. A fair bit of it would be nice to have in instanced PvE content, but we can't. PvP talents are, IMO, a terrible thing, and need to be done away with.