Ion Hazzikostas to German Magazine: Sub Rogue Redesign!?

[Narzok]

just gonna throw this out as an idea:

what if shadowblades goes away, the current shadow dance becomes baseline gameplay, and instead we get a CD that enhances your next X dances.
or go back to WoD with 1 min CD on Dance and have a CD give an additional charge for double dance.
and screw the DoT finisher (forgot the name). a blant DoT&dmg+ is not interesting.

since outlaw has RtB, give us (or all rogues, for that matter) Slice and Dice.
change it to give haste for energy regeneration.
that way, you wouldn't be out if energy after 4 GCDs

the current sub outside of dance is a joke.
aside from the pitiful dmg, the slow pace, compared to using shadow dance, is absolutely horrendous.

[Tyrannica]

well, the keyword here is pvp archtype

But, had no problem with teleports and shadow magic, would kinda fit in shadow lands, anyways.

i had some big fun with sub in legion and bfa, albeit, it was only in the first few months after releasing those expansions, when stuff was unnerfed.

but the toolkit was removed from previous expansions.

yeah,sub felt particulary smooth in WoD, when there was still a rich toolkit and choices, while other classes were harshly pruned.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't mind if the "shadow magic" visuals were available for rogues of any spec as some sort of customization option like warlock green fire or a series of glyphs for individual skills. I think it would be cool if everyone could have that add certain kinds of flair to their abilities. Like an option for holy priests to have all their skills use the soft blue/white light of Elune for their heals instead of the standard yellow light we see by default. Cosmetic options like that are cool imo.

on the other side, there are allready too many cosmetic choices in retail wow, instead, a class centric gameplay should be in place.

not against the blue/white light of elune stuff for holy priests, though....perhaps there is a red colour options for dks, too, would fit the bolvar theme.

But yeah, proper class design first!

[StyxzTheSage]

This could go horribly wrong.

The community needs to stop endorsing this false dichotomy of class identity vs. spec identity. Zero reason for one to come at the expense of the other.

As for rogue's specifically, I remember rogues complaining loudly up through Cata for the specs to be a bit more different and for Sub to be viable in PvE. Finally this started to happen in MoP. Legion finally brought some distinction between the specs.

And now, we're clamoring for them to go back to sub being a PvP archetype?

IDK man...

[Krille]

This could go horribly wrong.

The community needs to stop endorsing this false dichotomy of class identity vs. spec identity. Zero reason for one to come at the expense of the other.

As for rogue's specifically, I remember rogues complaining loudly up through Cata for the specs to be a bit more different and for Sub to be viable in PvE. Finally this started to happen in MoP. Legion finally brought some distinction between the specs.

And now, we're clamoring for them to go back to sub being a PvP archetype?

IDK man...

Sub is shit at the moment. It has big flaws that makes it useless on any fight with downtime. The dot system is trash, its just a buffer for eviscerate. I dont understand how anyone can defend this spec as it is.

[StyxzTheSage]

Sub is shit at the moment. It has big flaws that makes it useless on any fight with downtime. The dot system is trash, its just a buffer for eviscerate. I dont understand how anyone can defend this spec as it is.

Fair enough, but how is homogenizing the specs again going to fix that design? Giving sub poisons again won't fix the issues you're highlighting.

They should be able to improve the gameplay for the problem specs without this bandaid PR push to "refocus on class identity."

[StillMcfuu]

Deception scoundrel confirmed new class.

If sub doesn't get its name changed to deception scoundrel and Rogues class doesn't change to Villain, Shadowlands is a failure.

[msdos]

The broken death from above with Sub was actually really fun, I liked that. Then they started gutting and shuffling and moving and tweaking, like they usually do. I think people didn't like the Marked for Death management, but I went into sub committed, knowing it was a debuff manager.

Then outlaw hooked me in because they can't balance Sub's damage without breaking PVP.

[Ethule]

Let’s wait and see. The majority of the players in WoW focus on PvE content so everything will always be designed to mainly cater to raids and dungeons. I think you’ll might be disappointed

That's cute that you think they balance for casual PVE players when in reality they cater to pro mythic raiders.

[Danuel]

Lets have ranged, shurican throwing sub rogue!

[Ryme]

Late Cataclysm sub rouge was the best iteration imo. Fite me WoD fans.

[Krille]

Fair enough, but how is homogenizing the specs again going to fix that design? Giving sub poisons again won't fix the issues you're highlighting.

They should be able to improve the gameplay for the problem specs without this bandaid PR push to "refocus on class identity."

I don't think they are homogenizing the specs. They are bringing back CORE CLASS abilities, says nothing about sub. It always had poisons in the past.

Sub doesnt need more/new abilities, it needs a playstyle that isnt so heavily punished by movement. I don't think you understand what they mean with "refocus on class identity".

[Boricha]

If by redesign we mean revert, I'm down. I'd love to enjoy my rogue again.

[Kaver]

That's cute that you think they balance for casual PVE players when in reality they cater to pro mythic raiders.

No, no, no.. you misunderstand me.

I never said I think they are going to balance it for casual PVE players. I'm not sure where you got that from

I just said that Blizzard in general focus more on PvE compared to PvP.

I do mythic raiding. That's what I play the game for. Outside of mythic raiding the game sucks a$s in my opinion (m+ is also okay).

I just want Blizzard to make Subtlety great for raiding (like it was in WoD) which I think they will. If they are going to balance it for pro mythic raiders then it's perfect

I'm glad you think I'm cute

[Ethule]

I just want Blizzard to make Subtlety great for raiding (like it was in WoD) which I think they will. If they are going to balance it for pro mythic raiders then it's perfect

I'm glad you think I'm cute

My bad, I misunderstood. Carry on. Lol

[Nouk]

Late Cataclysm sub rouge was the best iteration imo. Fite me WoD fans.

Same here. Buff/Debuff Juggling and awesome cd management. but i also liked MoP, although it was a bit overshadowed performancewise.
just gimme back the old playstyle with the new fancy VFX and anims.

[dcc626]

Don't play rogue but I'm really happy for you guys. Let's hope other specs will see some well-deserved love as well.

One thing I don't understand though:
Legion says we've gone too far in some classes and specializations, so gamers have not felt comfortable with the character they've been traveling with for years. But we want to fix problems that exist

What is this supposed to mean? Sounds like they're saying "We went too far with the class redesigns in Legion but it's nothing we want to adress right now so we're just going to fix problems with classes as they are now."
If that reading is correct, that's really disappointing.

it means they arent doing large class overhauls like they have for the past few xpacs. they are adding things back, fixing and changing talents and making things that dont work, work the way they want. Nothing like making survival a melee spec. take from that what you will.

[Nerovar]

it means they arent doing large class overhauls like they have for the past few xpacs. they are adding things back, fixing and changing talents and making things that dont work, work the way they want. Nothing like making survival a melee spec. take from that what you will.

Just seems really weird to say "class design is one of the big things in shadow lands" when they don't want to change much to begin with.

[Coldkil]

Well, i'm not playing anymore, but this is good news.

Honestly i liked the shadow magic theme of sub, but i agree that the archetype was too much far from the rogue concept.

I know some people is really heated up about Sub and PvP, so i think this is a good thing for everyone. In the end there will always be a best spec for everything, so why they just don't go back to where it was? Because it just worked and people were happy.

Casual players will be still able to play any spec; harcore players will be as optimized as possible as usual.

[Naiattavain]

yea making sub work for both parts of the game is what needs to happen. the special AV is really bad experience with subtlety on live.

[shoegazing]

yea making sub work for both parts of the game is what needs to happen. the special AV is really bad experience with subtlety on live.

40v40 zerg battles are exactly the scenario where Subtlety should shine the least. Abusing MFD resets while sniping low health targets should be the only way for Subtlety to put up decent numbers in a scenario like this -- but I can't emphasize enough that it's not about the numbers. This isn't a zerg battle throughput spec and it should never do similar numbers to an affliction warlock, moonkin, or shadow priest in this type of scenario.

Subtlety should be designed to shine in 1v1s and small teamfights where it utilizes oppressive control and single target burst to affect outcomes. To shine in an AV scenario, Subtlety players should be looking to back-cap towers and play map objectives where Subtlety's toolkit can shine.

Looking at killing blows or damage output is the single worst and most misguided way to measure Subtlety success in a battleground, particularly so in 40v40. If you want to dominate the BG by dominating the meters, Subtlety is the worst possible spec that you could choose. Subtlety is not designed for that, and nor should it be since it would ruin the unique strengths and gameplay of the spec.