Class feel is also about combat difficulty in solo content

[Shakana]

Why do haters get to hate all they want but those of us who want to bring some sense into the conversation get insulted and/or shooed away?

I don't know, i got insulted too a few times but i think it's just the mindset of the forums, with my friends we talk about everything and have all different opinions but respect each others views, sometimes we even say you're crazy i don't want that in the game but ye no real insults ofc, might be as well because people are sick of forums.

I think everyone can have their opinions even if it's the most polar opinions against one another. And i always try to do that on my threads as well. Because being insulted after a hard day irl on forums just feels so dull and makes you feel even worse. People don't even know you. But i don't know, try change the way you speak about the issues.

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Auras are mostly a set and forget flavour thing. Seals were a bigger thing.

Anywho, get well soon. o/

Thank you <3 I forgot about seals existing even. Well, some people talked about auras more than seals,i guess that's why i thought it was a good thing.

[Gaidax]

Why do haters get to hate all they want but those of us who want to bring some sense into the conversation get insulted and/or shooed away?

You are wasting our collective time with your butthurt. Just get over it already, I mean it's not even me - you are bothering others. If you have something useful to say on topic, be my guest. Poking me last 2 pages or so with your nonsense though? There are PMs for that.

Sheesh. Some people.

[melzas]

Why do you want questing to be done as quck as possible? Is it perhaps because it's not fun? Why is it not fun? Maybe because it's a cakewalk and "the real game" is waiting at max level? Don't you think that in itself is a problem?

How is watching your character sit down and eat for 10 seconds every 2 minutes fun? Figuring out the fastest and most efficient way to pull and kill mobs is waaay more fun than what essentially is watching the paint dry.

[clevin]

The what type of content should it prepare for? m+? or raid? or maybe pvp? all of them? is that even possible? Should leveling be about killing only 1 or 2 big mobs every level? until you can execute your kit perfectly? how hard should it be? should it require you to make 70% logs? or maybe 90%. You see the fault on your argument?

Look at TBC. Most mobs were killable with relatively little danger but you took risks if you were pulling more (you might be able to do it if you had skill, but things could go south). And in some places there were elites that really challenged you. You could beat them, but you couldn't do it if you didn't play well.

You talk like someone who started after that, though, with your emphasis on logs... DPS isn't the only important thing in solo/open world content. Control, movement and tactics all can matter too.

[Shinrael]

It's like that on all forums and reddits.

For example over on https://old.reddit.com/r/bladeandsoul/ everyone who dosen't agree with the consensus that "The game is utter trash and the devs are the worst" is getting yelled at for being a "White knight" "How much did NCsoft pay you to say that?" "ass kisser" and such a long those lines.

Basiclly you are not supposed to disagree with the haters or try to argue with them.

It really pains me that we've come down to shit like this. We could be brainstorming ideas on future features, improvements in all aspects of the game, even if they never come to pass or if they are too crazy, nothing's wrong with some daydreaming and brainstorming. It's a creativity workout sort of. People limit themselves to only things they can see and touch and don't even try thinking about a possible change. Sure, changing X could affect Y negatively but then we can ask ourselves "okay, what can we do to get the positives and avoid the negatives?" And not "Blizzard would never do that" or "nobody wants that" :3 Obviously if there are people like me and the OP who advocate for a change, then it is not "nobody". And the worst thing in threads like these is that even non-haters turn against us because they misunderstand our intentions. People are so strongly divided into "haters" and "white knights" that those like me who try to take a middle ground - approach the game with an open mind, try to see what can be improved and provide new ideas and constructive feedback - get hated by both sides.

[clevin]

You are wasting our collective time with your butthurt. Just get over it already, I mean it's not even me - you are bothering others. If you have something useful to say on topic, be my guest. Poking me last 2 pages or so with your nonsense though? There are PMs for that.

Sheesh. Some people.

The complete lack of self-awareness in your post is amazing.

[Gaidax]

How is watching your character sit down and eat for 10 seconds every 2 minutes fun? Figuring out the fastest and most efficient way to pull and kill mobs is waaay more fun than what essentially is watching the paint dry.

Pretty much, if anything a suggestion to boost everything's HP is like the worst there is. I mean, that's for sure not more difficult and for sure just tedious there.

The complete lack of self-awareness in your post is amazing.

Unlike that guy, I am trying to hold actual conversation on topic with other people. Instead of wasting my time nitpicking unrelated nonsense and trying to poke people with nonsense.

[Shakana]

If Hybrid Tax went back to 5% and they actually balanced specs within 5% of each other, I'd 100% be down for that, especially if Hybrids are also bringing useful utility and defensives.

I actually loved some hybrid specs. Like sub+assass rogue was amazing to me. I miss that. But for example for demon hunter and other classes would feel way too weird, i think some classes specs are supposed to remain separated specs and not hybrid/mixed. But that's like a huge work for them as they have to adopt the method for all classes and not just some. Many times i even said to just instead of adopting that, joining a spec to other, so it would be easier to mess around.

[Shinrael]

You are wasting our collective time with your butthurt. Just get over it already, I mean it's not even me - you are bothering others. If you have something useful to say on topic, be my guest. Poking me last 2 pages or so with your nonsense though? There are PMs for that.

Sheesh. Some people.

I am trying to contribute to the topic. You are deliberately trying to get in the way. I made multiple posts where I did provide ideas on topic, but you simply disregarded them and decided to do.... your thing. I don't feel a need to PM you. But you're free to go away from this thread, considering you aren't trying to contribute. And then I will stop poking you, promise!

How is watching your character sit down and eat for 10 seconds every 2 minutes fun? Figuring out the fastest and most efficient way to pull and kill mobs is waaay more fun than what essentially is watching the paint dry.

There are many ways to make leveling a more engaging and fun process. Take endgame content for example. Why is endgame content considered hard? Is it because you sit down for 10 seconds every 2 minutes? Obviously, it is because enemies are quite powerful and you need to think before engaging them, you need to plan your way, what abilities you will use, in what order, how many mobs you're going to pull, when is best to use defensives and CC, which mob to poly, when is best to disengage and retreat, etc. Let us not limit our imagination and come up with cool ideas rather than simply dismissing any possible change/improvement because "X is a problem". Problems exist to be solved. Let us solve this one.

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Pretty much, if anything a suggestion to boost everything's HP is like the worst there is. I mean, that's for sure not more difficult and for sure just tedious there.



Unlike that guy, I am trying to hold actual conversation on topic with other people. Instead of wasting my time nitpicking unrelated nonsense and trying to poke people with nonsense.

Why would you increase the mob's HP? That is a rather boring way to increase "difficulty" (if that counts at all). Why not give mobs abilities that can be interrupted or dodged but if you fail to do so, they deal a nice amount of damage and if you pull multiple mobs and fail to dodge all of their abilities, you kinda die. That is much more akin to the endgame experience. The world tries to kill you and you try to avoid that at all costs while trying to kill them. You can then use your defensive abilities to mitigate some of the damage, you can polymorph some mob if there are too many in one place. You can use your invisibility or stealth to bypass some mobs and pick an easier fight. It is not much but it would make for a so much more immersive leveling experience. And you can do so much more!

[VinceVega]

Why do you want questing to be done as quck as possible? Is it perhaps because it's not fun? Why is it not fun? Maybe because it's a cakewalk and "the real game" is waiting at max level? Don't you think that in itself is a problem?

"The real game" as you put it was ALWAYS the end game. It was like this also in classic, despite leveling been harder and took longer. And please blizzard don't change that. Leveling is fun. The first time. But there are no different level paths really. That makes the second time just a nuisance.

Maybe in 9.0 with the level squish it will be good again because you can really play one addon in its entirety again.

[chilblains]

"What?! I CANNOT kill 1 mob with one button and get to the max level?!"

Leveling is boring because of some mouth-breathing people, like on this topic, have cried ever since the release of Vanilla because their brains don't even comprehend "dying in game" or "pressing other buttons" just because they did something wrong. Worse thing is they cried about leveling then, and they cry about it now. "oh it was so time consuming!" to "oh it is so booooring!"

Leveling is a school now? A chore? Let people do whatever the fuck they want, dude.

Yeah it is some kind of school. You learn basics about the game actually.

But I guess you are one of the instant gratification people who comes in 15 seconds while watching porn. Better yet, a baby who cries about candies. "What?!? LEARNING A GAME!?!! WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?!!??!?!"

[Gaidax]

Yeah it is some kind of school. You learn basics about the game actually.

You can learn basics just fine by doing whatever people do now. New players don't annihilate things in 2 hits and seasoned players don't need to "learn" whatever questing teaches, which is mainly collecting 10 bear asses and turning it in.

[Shakana]

You can learn basics just fine by doing whatever people do now. New players don't annihilate things in 2 hits and seasoned players don't need to "learn" whatever questing teaches, which is mainly collecting 10 bear asses and turning it in.

Maybe they should just get class quests back. And the leveling and open world, will just be where you practice them and evolve, not learning how to play with it.

[Soon-TM]

I am trying to hold actual conversation on topic with other people. Instead of wasting my time nitpicking unrelated nonsense and trying to poke people with nonsense.

No, you aren't. You are just being rude to people with different opinions with nothing to back up yours but a nebulous "common sense" pulled out of some body cavity. The lack of self awareness in your posts is truly astounding.

As for actual suggestions, maybe some mobs could cast some hard hitting spell that must be interrupted or LoS'd. Others could throw some green/red/purple/etc. goo at you, which forces you to reposition. Other mobs could be weak when faced solo, but pulling many of them makes them stronger and sturdier the bigger the pull is. Healing mobs could be found more often, and their healing might be strong enough as to cue the player to kill those first.

There are countless possibilities, none of which involve grinding or Vanilla-style downtime. Btw, it's amazing how many people ITT are assuming that the two aforementioned factors are somehow synonymous to hard(er) levelling.

[Nephys]

Look at TBC. Most mobs were killable with relatively little danger but you took risks if you were pulling more (you might be able to do it if you had skill, but things could go south). And in some places there were elites that really challenged you. You could beat them, but you couldn't do it if you didn't play well.

You talk like someone who started after that, though, with your emphasis on logs... DPS isn't the only important thing in solo/open world content. Control, movement and tactics all can matter too.

I started on classic, or if we are being fair I started even before that on WC3.
What is considered dangerous to one class is easy to another, if you make elites extremelly hard for a Hunter, they become impossible for a rogue or a priest (or whoever is weakest at leveling).

Then again, you are talking about "solo level tactics", that's what leveling should prepare you for? Something that doesn't even exist at max level?

[Gaidax]

Maybe they should just get class quests back. And the leveling and open world, will just be where you practice them and evolve, not learning how to play with it.

I think there is plenty enough for outside as is, I mean, hyperbole aside - mobs do not really fall over, especially not to players who actually need to "learn" the class.

Besides that boost is already sort of a mini class quest.

I simply don't think there is anything more necessary and what for sure is not necessary is making what is supposed to be the easiest thing in WoW harder.

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Then again, you are talking about "solo level tactics", that's what leveling should prepare you for? Something that doesn't even exist at max level?

This is another good point actually. I mean... it's even obvious one really.

[Shakana]

No, you aren't. You are just being rude to people with different opinions with nothing to back up yours but a nebulous "common sense" pulled out of some body cavity. The lack of self awareness in your posts is truly astounding.

As for actual suggestions, maybe some mobs could cast some hard hitting spell that must be interrupted or LoS'd. Others could throw some green/red/purple/etc. goo at you, which forces you to reposition. Other mobs could be weak when faced solo, but pulling many of them makes them stronger and sturdier the bigger the pull is. Healing mobs could be found more often, and their healing might be strong enough as to cue the player to kill those first.

There are countless possibilities, none of which involve grinding or Vanilla-style downtime. Btw, it's amazing how many people ITT are assuming that the two aforementioned factors are somehow synonymous to hard(er) levelling.

I for one, don't think leveling is hard, i just think the leveling is quite boring when you're just losing so much of your hard work from the previous expansion just to level up 10 more levels, like in bfa leveling felt that instead of leveling up and getting more powerful, you were just getting weaker every level until you just start to get annoyed with it. Doing dungeons feeling you're now useless until you get a decent gear that makes you feel "better" from losing so much.
I just want leveling to be a better experience while i'm learning about the stories, not feeling i'm going backwards.
Hearing the soundtrack and appreciate every bit of it, without being annoyed with me feeling weakened and trying to just rush to max level, so i can feel more relief and capable of doing at least something useful. You can't even appreciate leveling or the zones.

That's my actual nr.1 complaint about bfa, and my other chars having to repeat the same thing so just i can get to max level and have to grind more too. Everything about endgame and leveling in bfa is absolute crap for my alts and even my main. I don't like to feel weak. I like to feel that i'm evolving to be even better, if i'm leveling to a higher level, not the feeling that my numbers are going higher on levels but it actually feels that instead of going to 120, i'm going to 100 again from the 110.

Level squish is not a bad thing for me too.

Leveling can just be a good or bad experience, based on how they make you go through the levels. Ofc if you lose most of your stuff while leveling you're not feeling it's easy either but doesn't mean it's hard. Just means you're getting weak.

And also solo content is great too, so i can enjoy myself without always having to put people on the equation that sometimes feels they are not helping at all and just aggro more stuff etc. That's why mage tower was so cool in that sense, i was there by myself, testing my skills. How powerful i could be, how well i knew my class, how well i can avoid stuff and how good can my gameplay be. If i did everything right i would be getting my reward. That's amazing and fulfilling gameplay. Better than just going on a stressing raid where everyone has a mechanic attached and if they fail you fail too.
Even better than just leveling and barely see what you're capable of doing, when you just got weakened while leveling, and only later you can understand how much those 10 levels actually had influence or it's justifiable to level up more 10 levels (to stop feeling you "unleveled" 10 levels, backwards from 110 to 100, instead of 110 to 120) and class feeling in this is just "game mechanics" not actual class mechanics.
To feel your class you are basically better on solo content rather than accompanied, because there you can see your fullest potential. No pressure with people doing stuff you don't want, or leveling feeling you got weaker, or raiding with responsibilities on your back.

I even used to say once, if you PVP you're ready to do PVE, because you're more self-aware of stuff and your skills and how to get out of shit, you're already vaccinated against standing in fire or stuff, cause in PVP you're always looking at your surroundings. Also PVP being so easy to access with ilvls, is a bad things for me.
PVP'ers doing PVE was like ez pz, but PVE'ers doing PVP were the most dumbducks.

PVP is the best thing to know your class. And i'm really sad how they made PVP so unimportant.

[Amariw]

Great topic. I personally woulf rather have more interesting leveling with more engaging mobs. I see several in the thread think differently. Lets see if we can find a compromise.

While i enjoyed vanilla wow back in the day, I also prefer today's faster paced combat. But in say, mop or even wotlk, combat was pretty fast paced with minimal regen required. The challenge was surviving tough mobs, mop timeless isle and thunder isle especially had mobs with abilities you needed to counter, but it wasnt a death sentence if you didnt, but it could be if you completely ignored them multiple times.

Something like that, maybe toned down, in some parts of leveling could be really cool. Stormsong Valley in BFA has a zone with void worshipping stormsong cultists, and you get a quest to wreck stuff there for 100% completion. Easy peasy. However, there's a wandering giant faceless with tons of hp, fairly dangerous (but not one shotty) abilities which can be countered, and killing it gives like 40% of the quest. On some chars i didnt feel confident enough killing it, so i stuck to the non elites. But when i wanted the challenge, i did it and i often succeeded. It was fun, and optional.

We can make more options like that. Elite/dangerous subzones that arent important for the main zone storyline. More healers in some pulls like someone suggested with fast healing spells. Two linked mobs, one fire and one frost, which do dangerous effects but those effects also cleanse each other, so you can get hit intelligently and carefully to nullify the dangerous parts. Rares that actually feel like an (optional) challenge.

This would make leveling really cool for those who want it, while keeping it simple for those who don't. I think it can be a win-win. The new Maw zone in Shadowlands sounds a lot like this, optional tough solo content for endgame, which gets tougher if you want to stay long. Doesn't hurt anyone who just wants chill worldquests in other zones.

Options are great.

[Th3Scourge]

I just want leveling to be engaging. Whether that is accomplished by delivering a more cohesive story experience, a better stream of character progression, more spells, more abilities on mobs etc, I'm not sure, but I think a range of changes should occur to make it a more pleasant experience

I would like to enjoy the story while leveling, I do like to get through leveling as fast as I can but I don't mind that taking a bit longer if it's engaging.

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Great topic. I personally woulf rather have more interesting leveling with more engaging mobs. I see several in the thread think differently. Lets see if we can find a compromise.

While i enjoyed vanilla wow back in the day, I also prefer today's faster paced combat. But in say, mop or even wotlk, combat was pretty fast paced with minimal regen required. The challenge was surviving tough mobs, mop timeless isle and thunder isle especially had mobs with abilities you needed to counter, but it wasnt a death sentence if you didnt, but it could be if you completely ignored them multiple times.

Something like that, maybe toned down, in some parts of leveling could be really cool. Stormsong Valley in BFA has a zone with void worshipping stormsong cultists, and you get a quest to wreck stuff there for 100% completion. Easy peasy. However, there's a wandering giant faceless with tons of hp, fairly dangerous (but not one shotty) abilities which can be countered, and killing it gives like 40% of the quest. On some chars i didnt feel confident enough killing it, so i stuck to the non elites. But when i wanted the challenge, i did it and i often succeeded. It was fun, and optional.

We can make more options like that. Elite/dangerous subzones that arent important for the main zone storyline. More healers in some pulls like someone suggested with fast healing spells. Two linked mobs, one fire and one frost, which do dangerous effects but those effects also cleanse each other, so you can get hit intelligently and carefully to nullify the dangerous parts. Rares that actually feel like an (optional) challenge.

This would make leveling really cool for those who want it, while keeping it simple for those who don't. I think it can be a win-win. The new Maw zone in Shadowlands sounds a lot like this, optional tough solo content for endgame, which gets tougher if you want to stay long. Doesn't hurt anyone who just wants chill worldquests in other zones.

Options are great.

The thing that I've really enjoyed about the classic experience again is how dangerous some mobs can be. Pulling 2 casters usually means I'm dead. So you need to re-plan and use some form of decision making. I wish this feeling of danger was added back in. Pulling packs of 10 and just blasting them down isn't really engaging

[arkanon]

Because nobody wants difficult solo content when you level.

If I'm leveling I want it to be done as quick as possible.

Difficulty doesnt have to = slower leveling speed. Why not have challenging but highly rewarding (xp) content available for those that dont want to mindlessly grind reskinned quests