Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by XangXu View Post
    I love how Americans thought that it would be beneficial to invade a region with people who are barely out of the stone age, and not their next door neighbour whose criminal problem has grown so large, it outranks the government.

    People think sending troops into Mexico is a bad idea. Jesus fucking christ. You’re people are next to a governmentless nation.
    Mexico doesn't have oil.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    It's hard to take your source seriously with a statement like "high-caliber AR-15." AR-15s are varmint caliber rifles. .223/5.56mm is about as small a caliber as you get in a rifle.
    Yes, people use AR15's for varmints. There's a bit of a difference between a .223 Rifle Cartridge and a .22 LR bullet (somewhat more appropriate for varmints). You're being pedantic to try to obfuscate the problem of cartels buying guns from American retailers.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Yes, people use AR15's for varmints. There's a bit of a difference between a .223 Rifle Cartridge and a .22 LR bullet (somewhat more appropriate for varmints). You're being pedantic to try to obfuscate the problem of cartels buying guns from American retailers.
    Varmints? Alright, Yosemite Sam.

  4. #24
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Матушка Россия
    Posts
    2,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Sol View Post
    Mexico has the seventeenth largest oil reserves in the world, and it is the fourth largest oil producer in the Western Hemisphere behind the United States, Canada and Venezuela.

    You were saying?
    Invading Venezuela simply has 100 times more sense considering the Oil

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Yes, people use AR15's for varmints. There's a bit of a difference between a .223 Rifle Cartridge and a .22 LR bullet (somewhat more appropriate for varmints). You're being pedantic to try to obfuscate the problem of cartels buying guns from American retailers.
    And you use the same type of exaggeration to make your point. You specify that the .223 is a "Rifle Cartridge" but don't do the same for the .22 LR (Long Rifle). Sure it can be used in a handgun but so can the .223/5.56. .22LR is absolutely not powerful enough for coyotes unless you happen to be into animal cruelty.

    The point being is that if they inflate such obvious information, then you know everything else is being painted as bad as they can make it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    And you use the same type of exaggeration to make your point. You specify that the .223 is a "Rifle Cartridge" but don't do the same for the .22 LR (Long Rifle). Sure it can be used in a handgun but so can the .223/5.56. .22LR is absolutely not powerful enough for coyotes unless you happen to be into animal cruelty.

    The point being is that if they inflate such obvious information, then you know everything else is being painted as bad as they can make it.
    Typical energy for .22LR is 200-250J with a 2g Bullet. Typical energy for 5.56mm NATO bullet is 1800J with a 4g Bullet. One is completely unlike the other despite a roughly similar bullet diameter.

    Maybe NPR should've said military rifle cartridge in their description but that's a minor detail. The major detail which you're trying to distract us from is that Mexican drug cartels and other criminals use gun mules to legally purchase bulk weapons from American gun dealers. Any attempts to stop this is typically blocked by GOP politicians under the guise of "Freedom".

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by XangXu View Post
    I love how Americans thought that it would be beneficial to invade a region with people who are barely out of the stone age, and not their next door neighbour whose criminal problem has grown so large, it outranks the government.

    People think sending troops into Mexico is a bad idea. Jesus fucking christ. You’re people are next to a governmentless nation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ex..._Manet_022.jpg

    The dude with the blond beard was the key in a scheme of ''let's invade Mexico to recover dubious debts'' (60 millions debt, of which 20 million was recovered, for an expenses of 800 million)
    Last edited by sarahtasher; 2019-11-10 at 09:16 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Why do people focus on .223 when the AR has a wide range of calibers?
    Eh .223 is generally standard for a civilian weapon like the AR-15, sure you can get higher caliber but .223 is usually the most common.

    However don't let the commentary about 'varmit caliber' fool you, it can and has been used to effectively hunt deer before.

    Even more important it's more than effective enough against humans, and while .223 may not be military grade it's generally the caliber of choice for Police and SWAT carbines due to the combo of it being effective and not having to worry about over penetration

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Why do people focus on .223 when the AR has a wide range of calibers?
    ARs do. AR15s do not. The article specified AR15.

    For instance AR10 is 7.62/.308

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Typical energy for .22LR is 200-250J with a 2g Bullet. Typical energy for 5.56mm NATO bullet is 1800J with a 4g Bullet. One is completely unlike the other despite a roughly similar bullet diameter.

    Maybe NPR should've said military rifle cartridge in their description but that's a minor detail. The major detail which you're trying to distract us from is that Mexican drug cartels and other criminals use gun mules to legally purchase bulk weapons from American gun dealers. Any attempts to stop this is typically blocked by GOP politicians under the guise of "Freedom".
    You are again providing incorrect information. Straw purchases are illegal

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Typical energy for .22LR is 200-250J with a 2g Bullet. Typical energy for 5.56mm NATO bullet is 1800J with a 4g Bullet. One is completely unlike the other despite a roughly similar bullet diameter.

    Maybe NPR should've said military rifle cartridge in their description but that's a minor detail. The major detail which you're trying to distract us from is that Mexican drug cartels and other criminals use gun mules to legally purchase bulk weapons from American gun dealers. Any attempts to stop this is typically blocked by GOP politicians under the guise of "Freedom".
    To put it into perspective then:
    .223/5.56 1800J
    .308/7.62 3200J
    30-06. 4000J
    12 gauge shotgun 4500J

    So again, 223/556 is not high caliber as stated and is not particularly high powered for a rifle

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
    Eh .223 is generally standard for a civilian weapon like the AR-15, sure you can get higher caliber but .223 is usually the most common.

    However don't let the commentary about 'varmit caliber' fool you, it can and has been used to effectively hunt deer before.

    Even more important it's more than effective enough against humans, and while .223 may not be military grade it's generally the caliber of choice for Police and SWAT carbines due to the combo of it being effective and not having to worry about over penetration
    Sure an excellent shot can kill a deer, but it's not particularly effective and generally cruel to the animal.

    Here is a good reference for matching caliber to game

  10. #30
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Resident of Emerald City
    Posts
    10,944
    Why is there a conversation on guns being had in a thread about Mexico and being further derailed from the topic by a moderator instead of steered back on topic?

    Don't we already have a thread for gun discussions?
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @Thwart both the 15 and 10 come in multiple calibers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...AR-15_calibers
    AR stands for Armalite Rifle. The AR10 was the first of the two and was chambered in 7.62x51mm. The AR15 came later and was chambered in 5.56mm. Now anyone can build whatever they want and call it whatever they want but anything else is just an AR platform in whatever caliber they built not it's not a 10 or 15.

    https://www.maxblagg.net/ar10-vs-ar1...he-difference/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Why is there a conversation on guns being had in a thread about Mexico and being further derailed from the topic by a moderator instead of steered back on topic?

    Don't we already have a thread for gun discussions?
    Someone posted an article blaming Mexico's gun problem (danger) on the US. The article's veracity is being debated, not gun control.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    You are again providing incorrect information. Straw purchases are illegal
    The person making the purchase is obtaining the gun legally. What they do after the purchase is illegal. The GOP was no interest in stopping straw purchases since it will affect gun sales. Mexican cartels will continue to make bulk purchases at American gun shops until the US government decides to pull its head out of its ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    So again, 223/556 is not high caliber as stated and is not particularly high powered for a rifle
    Strong enough for the US military, 2nd Amendment Fetishists and Mexican drug cartels. .22LR might be the US's most popular ammo but its not because its good for killing people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Why is there a conversation on guns being had in a thread about Mexico and being further derailed from the topic by a moderator instead of steered back on topic?
    He would have to admit that Mexican drug cartels weaponry is the direct result of American gun nuttery and their money from American drug users.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The person making the purchase is obtaining the gun legally. What they do after the purchase is illegal. The GOP was no interest in stopping straw purchases since it will affect gun sales. Mexican cartels will continue to make bulk purchases at American gun shops until the US government decides to pull its head out of its ass.



    Strong enough for the US military, 2nd Amendment Fetishists and Mexican drug cartels. .22LR might be the US's most popular ammo but its not because its good for killing people.
    Just purchasing the firearm with the intent to sell it to another is illegal. The first question on form 4473 for FFL background check is asks if you are buyer and not acquiring for another person. No part of this process is legal.
    Last edited by Citizen T; 2019-11-11 at 04:52 AM.

  14. #34
    Reading some of the posts in this thread makes me think that Exploding Varmints is a very popular movie on this board.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    AR stands for Armalite Rifle. The AR10 was the first of the two and was chambered in 7.62x51mm. The AR15 came later and was chambered in 5.56mm. Now anyone can build whatever they want and call it whatever they want but anything else is just an AR platform in whatever caliber they built not it's not a 10 or 15.

    https://www.maxblagg.net/ar10-vs-ar1...he-difference/

    - - - Updated - - -



    Someone posted an article blaming Mexico's gun problem (danger) on the US. The article's veracity is being debated, not gun control.
    That someone is the US Government Accountability Office.

    U.S. Efforts to Combat Firearms Trafficking to Mexico Have Improved, but Some Collaboration Challenges Remain
    GAO-16-223: Published: Jan 11, 2016. Publicly Released: Jan 11, 2016.


    What GAO Found

    According to data from the Department of Justice's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), 73,684 firearms (about 70 percent) seized in Mexico and traced from 2009 to 2014 originated in the United States. ATF data also show that these firearms were most often purchased in Southwest border states and that about half of them were long guns (rifles and shotguns). According to Mexican government officials, high caliber rifles are the preferred weapon used by drug trafficking organizations. According to ATF data, most were purchased legally in gun shops and at gun shows in the United States, and then trafficked illegally to Mexico. U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials also noted a new complicating factor in efforts to fight firearms trafficking is that weapons parts are being transported to Mexico to be later assembled into finished firearms, an activity that is much harder to track.
    The full report can be found here.

    The actual number is likely higher than the 70% that was quoted in the GAO report. The 17% of non-US origin only meant that the weapons were not manufactured in the US. But they still could have been bought in the US then transported to Mexico. The 13% of Undetermined Origin likely refers to weapons that were assembled in Mexico using parts purchased in the US.

    Mexico only submit serial numbers for around 25% of the guns confiscated in Mexico to be checked by the FBI.

    Why only 25%?

    Partly because of bureaucratic red tape. Partly because the Mexican police is not the best at accounting and documentation and keeping track of the firearms that they confiscated. The cartels also have this annoying habit of erasing serial numbers from firearms to keep it from being traced back to the original sellers.

    Although the actual number is probably debatable, we won't be too far off if we just say more than half of the guns used by the Cartels in Mexico come from the US.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    Just purchasing the firearm with the intent to sell it to another is illegal. The first question on form 4473 for FFL background check is asks if you are buyer and not acquiring for another person. No part of this process is legal.
    No straw purchaser would ever honestly answer that question and American gun shops are perfectly willing to accept any answers at face value. Money is more important then lives.

    Furthermore the GOP would likely err on the side of the buyer in this case. Pressing the buyer on intent would be a violation of their privacy and their 2nd amendment rights. Or so it would be framed.

  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    USA, Ohio
    Posts
    24,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    That someone is the US Government Accountability Office.

    U.S. Efforts to Combat Firearms Trafficking to Mexico Have Improved, but Some Collaboration Challenges Remain
    GAO-16-223: Published: Jan 11, 2016. Publicly Released: Jan 11, 2016.




    The full report can be found here.

    The actual number is likely higher than the 70% that was quoted in the GAO report. The 17% of non-US origin only meant that the weapons were not manufactured in the US. But they still could have been bought in the US then transported to Mexico. The 13% of Undetermined Origin likely refers to weapons that were assembled in Mexico using parts purchased in the US.

    Mexico only submit serial numbers for around 25% of the guns confiscated in Mexico to be checked by the FBI.

    Why only 25%?

    Partly because of bureaucratic red tape. Partly because the Mexican police is not the best at accounting and documentation and keeping track of the firearms that they confiscated. The cartels also have this annoying habit of erasing serial numbers from firearms to keep it from being traced back to the original sellers.

    Although the actual number is probably debatable, we won't be too far off if we just say more than half of the guns used by the Cartels in Mexico come from the US.
    Still not the US's fault. The large majority of firearms used by criminals in the US, come from the US. Not the manufacturers or legal gun owner's fault here.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    No straw purchaser would ever honestly answer that question and American gun shops are perfectly willing to accept any answers at face value. Money is more important then lives.

    Furthermore the GOP would likely err on the side of the buyer in this case. Pressing the buyer on intent would be a violation of their privacy and their 2nd amendment rights. Or so it would be framed.
    Then they are breaking two laws. One for straw purchase and one for perjury. It is illegal to do this. You're trying to pass this process off as if it's entirely legal for the people to supply firearms to the Mexican cartels. It is illegal at every step.

  19. #39
    Cartels took control of the Mexican government. America should restore the democracy in Mexico.

  20. #40
    Why is the Mexican crime cartels so violent to each other and regular people? Can't you make business without violence?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •