Anyone NOT that hyped for 'return to class'?

[Sinaa]

Speaking of trimmed skills. God, I miss Mind Soothe so much!

[Kalisandra]

A miss my Shaman being able to breathe underwater (yet locks still can, somehow) and my Paladin being able to Sense Undead. Warlock mounts being able to run on water, and Rogues being able to sprint over it (in both cases not in BGs, so not like they were game balance issues) from glyphs I also miss. Oh, and Paladins and DKs being meaningfully faster than classes when mounted. With runspeed (and thus mount-speed) bonuses being moved from multiplicative to additive, and just about everyone getting a +10% mount-speed bonus, the Paladin/DK +20% bonus is just nothing. Of course once upon a long time ago Paladins had Crusader Aura and could grant it to all their friends too. But that was too good in rated BGs, so goodbye.

We've lost so much over the years, and a great deal of it was utility and minor situational stuff that if people didn't care about it they could just leave off their bars, so why trim it? It was stuff that added colour, and a by giving a class some situational utility made them stand out a bit in their niche. They talk about over-homogenisation, with all melee having kicks, and so on, but then they removed all the stuff that didn't affect balance and wasn't homogeneous. The stuff that made just wandering round in the world doing shit fun.

[Samuraijake]

seemed like a subtle way to say "boo hoo i probably wont play shadowlands"

[Unholyground]

I absolutely love that persistent totems are coming back, it will weed out all the scrub Shaman.

[roboscorcher]

I have no problem with Specs vs CLasses as they are right now. My problem is all the gear you need for every spec. Azerite gear should have had separate configs for each spec. It was one of the reasons I quit playing a month after launch. Legion did a good job of letting us swap specs easily, then they made it hard again in BfA.

[Doffen]

So, you're telling me to make an effort when any argument you try to come up with relies on strawmen?
Just to let you know since you apparently don't really understand what means, is that they aren't arguments. They're responses built on a false narrative that you yourself make up, either by misunderstanding the original post or just being purposely obtuse and trolly.


You can't "counter" an argument that is based solely within your own imagination as you haven't addressed a single point in any of my posts.
I'm not here to teach you how to hold a discussions and I'm pretty impressed that you've somehow managed to avoid learning that after all this time.


There's been plenty of arguments as to why it's bad, it's just that you're willfully ignoring them, misunderstanding them or just being willfully obtuse and sticking to your strawmen.
Also, citation needed, where have I EVER stated that I am adverse to change? There you go with another strawman.
If anything, I fucking love that they're changing their design philosophy as the one they're currently employing clearly doesn't work, as if it did work then they wouldn't change it in the first place.

It's actually incredible how completely nonsensical your strawmen tends to be.


Not only have I on multiple occasions gone over the drawbacks of being too absorbed with spec design to where it actively is detrimental to the overall feeling of the class, only to be met with "lol class design is a shitty idea, spec design or gtfo" from your ilk.
It's clear that you don't WANT to have a discussion, only to pull your strawmen and troll as much as you possibly can.


Oh I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings?
When you feel like you can actually hold a discussion regarding this subject without reverting to strawmen or personal insults, feel free to look me up.

Secondly, the one's I've "jumped" in your words, were the people employing the age old favourite of yours where no one is allowed to even imply that changing class design and adding abilities is in any way a good thing.
But hey, keep doing you buddy, I'm sure someone values your opinion somewhere.

Yeah, my feelings are so hurt. How can I survive after this.

First of all, when you lie and make an argument of it, that's a strawman. When I lead you back to the topic that's not a strawman, but going back to the original topic we were discussing. Somehow you missed that your nonsensical post that was based on something I never said.

Second of all, when you ask for citations and I provide you with it, you already know you have lost an argument. When I ask you for one, and you can't provide it, the rest of us know that you are making shit up. Thus making strawman upon strawman because you can't discuss the arguments.

Thirdly, between the posts with you and me you haven't argued once, just hurr durr strawman, your opinion is not valid and the list goes on.

Last of all, me finding those citation was a fucking waste of time, you provide them yourself. Funny how people goes for the strawman options when they can't provide any kind of evidence. I mean, what is it you are trying to write here anyway?

[Gungnir]

Yeah, my feelings are so hurt. How can I survive after this.

First of all, when you lie and make an argument of it, that's a strawman. When I lead you back to the topic that's not a strawman, but going back to the original topic we were discussing. Somehow you missed that your nonsensical post that was based on something I never said.

.. You haven't even said anything of value in the last 10 posts you've made, as it's only been a circlejerk of strawman fallacies that no one can adress, since guess what, it's just strawman fallacies.

Second of all, when you ask for citations and I provide you with it, you already know you have lost an argument. When I ask you for one, and you can't provide it, the rest of us know that you are making shit up. Thus making strawman upon strawman because you can't discuss the arguments.

You took citations out of context, shoved them into your own narrative to twist them for your own benefit, that's not actually providing an accurate citation. I am well aware that you know this and I am also well aware that you are either obtuse as fuck or trolling as hard as you possibly can.

It's ironic that you are talking to me about 'strawman' when you are the one employing that tactic because you apparently can't do anything else.

Also, making shit up?
Last I checked, referring to the fact that Blizzard is reverting back to class design, me saying that spec identity is an abject failure is far from making shit up. If it wasn't then Blizzard would still employ that design philosophy.
I'll await your strawman.

Thirdly, between the posts with you and me you haven't argued once, just hurr durr strawman, your opinion is not valid and the list goes on.

Last of all, me finding those citation was a fucking waste of time, you provide them yourself. Funny how people goes for the strawman options when they can't provide any kind of evidence. I mean, what is it you are trying to write here anyway?

Clearly you're missing large parts of the picture here, since I have provided plenty of points to argue in my original post, and what I got back was a bunch of strawman and 'NO U' while also willfully ignoring the fact that Blizzard themselves seem to disagree with you regarding that spec identity is the only thing that matters.

So in this entire scenario, the only thing you've provided have been strawmen upon strawmen complete with quotes taken out of context to try to reinforce whatever delusional point you're trying to make, and now you're trying ask for 'evidence'?
The evidence is in the fucking Blizzcon panel, unless you are somehow denying the fact that Blizzcon ever happened.

To tell you the truth, I don't think I've ever met a more confused and delusional individual before in my life, and I am not saying that to be hostile. That's just the truth of the situation.
You've replied to my posts without actually adressing any of the argumentative points I've put forth and just went 'NO U YOUR OPINION IS WRONG', despite the fact that Blizzard seems the share the sentiment that spec identity isn't working, and then you throw personal insults at me without even trying to have a civil conversation and now you're trying to put the burden of proof on me when the only claim I have made have already been proven by Blizzard themselves saying that they are going back to class identity.


I genuinely don't know what the fuck you're trying to achieve with pissing up the thread this much but you seem to have a hardon for me.

[Powerogue]

If it's anything like rogues it'll mean I'll get back a lot of abilities I didn't use, like how gouge was trash due to poisons/bleeds interrupting it.

All I want is my damn artifact abilities back, blizzard, Legion class design was awesome! (with a few exceptions, did not like shadow priests or BM hunters...)

[Verdugo]

Always funny when Void Elf fans complain about "lore" or "fantasy".

[Doffen]

I genuinely don't know what the fuck you're trying to achieve with pissing up the thread this much but you seem to have a hardon for me.

If you didn't start with this argument:

It's like going "yeah well I don't eat icecream, so no one else should be allowed to do so."

I would maybe discuss the actual topic with you, but then you went off the rails and asked for citation and I gave you several, which was proving what you needed the citations for. I gave it to you, and you got pissed off for being called out of the usual nonsense. Then you proceed with insults and how bad my english is, how my opinion doesn't matter. You keep saying I am trolling, I am just trying to put some sense into your head.

Not worth it.

[Anastacy]

we do have that spell that can destroy bridges, it's meteor. we just cast a weaker version of it.

I was talking about the player character, not most Mages.

Lore-wise, we are supposed to be in the story. And we can change specs.

[Alkizon]

deviantcultist
For the Forsaken, they've stated in a more than one blue post as to how it is painful for them to utilize the Light. The Void Elves were awkwardly added, yet they no less provide the exclusive Void race fantasy. Ironically, I did complain about how being a Blood Elf Shadow Priest felt out of place with the Blood Elves being an arrogant/sassy race. Now Void Elves fill niches that Blood Elves couldn't and...of course being Alliance only adds some cash for Blizz.

I'm not going to further judge 9.0 as they basically have disclosed nothing essential so far. However, if they are to diminish the fact that a Shadow Priest is a "class of it's own" due to class>spec they want to go for, many people will be infuriated. By many, I am referring to the majority of Shadowpriest who are exclusively playing Shadow and never heal.

so? What will change when they suddenly learn to heal (I hope, you still remember, that they could heal with "damage", use vampiric mechanism and other stuff, is this not meet your fantasies?), not in active form, of course, and not particularly effective compared to "having bonus talents" ones, but still they will? Nothing! Nothing special, except what is stated. You, as I understand it, still don't understand the irony of issue. I indirectly pointed out that nothing prevents devs in their "pursuit of money" (and this was especially true for mentioned expansion) from perverting situation in any (in)accessible way, and since Legion is one of the most "damaged" stages of WoW lore, then that *pointing at Legion stuff link, which was given as irrefutable evidence of truth* so-called "class fantasy" (but in reality was = spec fantasy) does cost absolutely nothing significant (game will easily pan out, as it previously did, without this idiocy, and people will be able to think out RP component exactly as much as mechanic will allow them to do it, which speaks in favor of “not yours” option):

Schattenlied
Lore-wise specs don't exist.

Ahem... and now about your statement from "almost the entire community of shadow priests", please don't make me laugh, I have enough for today already

<<BACK | NEXT>>

[Schattenlied]

what do you actually gain from 'class' identity? IMO spec identity effectively turned 12 classes into 36 classes, each one very unique (though they should have gone further with rogue and made assassin ranged imo)

They didn't add anything at all to the specs when they did it, they just took shit away... Their idea of making the specs "unique" was to take the baseline toolkit, that everyone had access to, and divide it up amongst the specs for no fucking reason.

What did Assassination gain from taking poisons and Garrote/Rupture away from Sub and Combat/Outlaw? Nothing. On the other hand Outlaw's boring as shit rotation could really do with having Rupture in it. And what the hell was the point of taking Rupture away from Sub just to give them a copy of it back with a new name (nightblade), except worse because it can be dispelled and Rupture couldn't? And both Outlaw and Sub suffer greatly from the loss of Wound Poison's healing debuff in PvP, to the point where neither of them is viable any longer.

What did Outlaw gain from taking Gouge and Slice and Dice away from Sub/Assassin? Nothing. On the other hand Sub and Assassination's rotations would be more interesting if they still had Slice and Dice.

Show me a single instance where a spec was made better by removing baseline abilities from another spec. You can't, because it doesn't exist.


- - - Updated - - -

The worst balance this game has ever had is when spec was below class. Just look at Classic.

Spec was below class in Wrath too, and Wrath was fucking great, lot better than this shit.

- - - Updated - - -

[sarcasm]Everyone knows that only pirates ever called dice 'bones' and played dice games.[/sarcasm]

What I really want is for Outlaw/Combat/Whatever to go to using a 1-hander plus dagger. That'd make it different to all the other dual-wielding specs, of which there are too many.

You can do that already, there's no penalty for using a dagger in your offhand as Outlaw.

[Gungnir]

If you didn't start with this argument:

I would maybe discuss the actual topic with you, but then you went off the rails and asked for citation and I gave you several, which was proving what you needed the citations for. I gave it to you, and you got pissed off for being called out of the usual nonsense. Then you proceed with insults and how bad my english is, how my opinion doesn't matter. You keep saying I am trolling, I am just trying to put some sense into your head.

Not worth it.

Are you actually delusional?
I commented that as a response to other peoples 'argument' regarding Blizzards recent announcement of reverting back to class identity was just that, people going "oh but I don't like it, I don't want more buttons to press" which is an argument that is BEYOND retarded as they actively choose to shit on everyone else for their own selfish whims.
You would've noticed that if you actually payed any form of attention or had any form of reading comprehension, but instead you jump on me and try to imply that I started using that argument.
Secondly, you interpret me asking for clarification on something you wrote as being an 'insult'. Where in that entire segment did I actually insult you?
I even specifically asked you to rewrite that part, and also chimed in with what I THOUGHT was what you were saying, because honestly I couldn't fucking tell.
What do I get in response to that? More strawmen upon strawmen.

It's just a complete farce, you are heavily trolling because I can't accept anyone being this atrocious at reading comprehension and following a thread discussion.


You haven't once actually provided a discussion or even tried to do so.
The only thing you've 'attempted' to discuss was the fact that I brought to attention that spec identity clearly isn't a working philosophy and that Blizzard clearly are on the same page as me and the rest of the people feeling that way, since they're changing their design philosophy for SL. Even that 'attempt' was just basically saying "NO YOU'RE WRONG" without addressing the fact that it wasn't just me having that opinion, the devs of the actual game we're discussing were on the same page.

Again what can you possibly discuss? That you don't like the fact that people might want something other than spec identity?
Great, your opinion has been noted, it isn't going to change the fact that Blizzard is moving back to class identity however, nor will it change anyones mind in here.

[Schattenlied]

I was talking about the player character, not most Mages.

Lore-wise, we are supposed to be in the story. And we can change specs.

Lore-wise specs don't exist.

[Kalisandra]

If it's anything like rogues it'll mean I'll get back a lot of abilities I didn't use, like how gouge was trash due to poisons/bleeds interrupting it.

It still gave a short CC/on-GCD interrupt that was in addition to kick, garotte, kidney shot, cheap shot, and Blind. Can't have too many CCs, right?

All I want is my damn artifact abilities back, blizzard, Legion class design was awesome! (with a few exceptions, did not like shadow priests or BM hunters...)

For me Legion's great failures were 1) utterly murdering Pally mobility, 2) killing my Elemental's DPS without very specific legendaries and an annoying build (and then it changed to another set of legendaries and a different annoying build), 3) turning Sub into something I never really got my head around, and 4) Forcing my Frost DK to use dual-wielding. On the other hand, Ret was quite fun aside from the poor mobility, Affliction was the most fun I've had with a lock ever, and most other specs I tried out worked pretty well (not all, but most).

And then there was the biggest downside of all for Legion - we transitioned to BfA, and the loss of all the weapon abilities, plus the further trimming or core abilities was a terrible shock to the system. God it sucked.

[Doffen]

Are you actually delusional?
I commented that as a response to other peoples 'argument' regarding Blizzards recent announcement of reverting back to class identity was just that, people going "oh but I don't like it, I don't want more buttons to press" which is an argument that is BEYOND retarded as they actively choose to shit on everyone else for their own selfish whims.
You would've noticed that if you actually payed any form of attention or had any form of reading comprehension, but instead you jump on me and try to imply that I started using that argument.
Secondly, you interpret me asking for clarification on something you wrote as being an 'insult'. Where in that entire segment did I actually insult you?
I even specifically asked you to rewrite that part, and also chimed in with what I THOUGHT was what you were saying, because honestly I couldn't fucking tell.
What do I get in response to that? More strawmen upon strawmen.

It's just a complete farce, you are heavily trolling because I can't accept anyone being this atrocious at reading comprehension and following a thread discussion.


You haven't once actually provided a discussion or anything to discuss at all.
The only thing you've 'attempted' to discuss was the fact that I brought to attention that spec identity clearly isn't a working philosophy and that Blizzard clearly are on the same page as me and the rest of the people feeling that way, since they're changing their design philosophy for SL. Even that 'attempt' was just basically saying "NO YOU'RE WRONG" without addressing the fact that it wasn't just me having that opinion, the devs of the actual game we're discussing were on the same page.

And I am the one with hard on for you? Just give up already, I have given you up. Don't even bother try to think that I am the one doing the things you are talking about here. Next time, don't quote my post with some condescending reply like you did to several other in this thread that didn't agree with you and you won't get this kind of backlash.

You almost go off the rails when discussing with kalisandra up here as well about the enchancement spec in Legion. You think you discuss nicely don't you? Only with people that agrees with you 100%.

Now really, piss off.

[Gasparde]

I just don't particularly care tbh. It's pretty much just an RP feature at this point. Like, yea, gz for Fire Mages now having access to Frostbolt, that'll sure make it much easier to do worldquests - a rather challenging aspect of gameplay that requires some assistance indeed.

I'm expecting to get 5 spells back of which I'll not even bind 4 because they're pointless anyways.

[Grimbold21]

If Holinka's words and the current absence of information mean anything, then a "return to class" is essentially resurrecting a few old skills and buffs

[Varitok]

Please for the love of all that is holy bring back 2H frost, I would be instantly happy if they did. There was even a pic of a DK holding a 2handed frost looking weapon during Holinkas panel. Please Blizzard, do me a solid ONCE.