Shadowlands paladin changes

[Sigxy]

Long Arm of the Law or bust!

I would suggest Long Arm of the Law but then running old dungeons and raids that involves running back and forth will be a pain with lack of enemies. :<

Honestly they could just try have a mobility row like in MoP. One was Long Arm of the Law, one was Pursuit of Justice, one was Dash of Light (Divine Steed function but less Diablo feel).

[Jester Joe]

I heard the argument before. Just couldn't find much apart from one boss fight which seems like a bug Blizzard could've just hotfixed. Apparently if you used Divine Intervention on the Razorgore fight in BWL you could prevent adds from respawning on the next attempt.

Heroic Garrosh says hi.

(People using the IoT dagger to kill themselves so they didn't have to handle a mechanic)

[Aeula]

please god let them remove holy power.

Please no, I don't want to go back to seals. Holy power is fun.

[keelr]

please god let them remove holy power.

Oh please no, i dont want the "press-what-lights-up" paladin again its just stupid at it is.

Also, i hope auras will be some good, impactful thing. I hope unpruning doesnt mean we return to the dogshit classic class design

[Kalisandra]

I don't agree entirely with how to replace Divine Steed. I do think it SHOULD be replaced - but in my preference Pursuit of Justice. We don't have a sprint, instead a speed boost at all time to make up for it - meaning we can't chase someone on demand but we can still catch up.

That was how Paladins used to be - no gap closer or real snare, but a seal/judgement that locked targets to 100% movement and a high sustained runspeed. It worked pretty well except when trying to catch mages (and these days no doubt monks, hunters, DHs, leaping warriors, and so on). One of the nice things in Cata was having PoJ and LAotL. even in MoP and WoD when we had to choose it was nice. These days we have a crappy Speed of Light with an awful animation that gets us stuck in doorways.

[Naeturefae]

Holy power on Ret feels like a dumb cousin of combo points. It doesn’t feel good to play and never has imo and takes away from feeling like a force of retribution.

[Sigxy]

Holy power on Ret feels like a dumb cousin of combo points. It doesn’t feel good to play and never has imo and takes away from feeling like a force of retribution.

Yeah, agreed. At least with combo points you can at some points decide to use less than 5 points if needed (even if rare I presume). Holy Power always consumes 3 points. And they really don't feel powerful either which makes it worse.

Unpopular opinion but I prefer Ret to be the class that hits slow (not Classic slow, mind you), but every attack hurts a lot or places a debuff that benefits the whole group/raid attacking the target.

[Demsi]

Yeah, agreed. At least with combo points you can at some points decide to use less than 5 points if needed (even if rare I presume). Holy Power always consumes 3 points. And they really don't feel powerful either which makes it worse.

Unpopular opinion but I prefer Ret to be the class that hits slow (not Classic slow, mind you), but every attack hurts a lot or places a debuff that benefits the whole group/raid attacking the target.

I certainly woulnd't mind going back to WotLk Ret and start from there, while it wasn't very intricate design, it atleast felt great to play.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Being limited by cooldown is still functionally what Holy Power is from a balance perspective.
You can just slap a cooldown on Templar's Verdict that corresponds to roughly the amount of Crusader Strikes/Judgements/Blades of Whatever you needed to get enough Holy Power, and outright remove the system and it'd play exactly the same.

Having the spec turn into a slow, lumbering slugfest of a mess just to slap Holy Power on it was just a colossal mistake.

False about the CD on TV, because the HoPo system was DESIGNED specifically to allow us to delay TVs until we could chain two/three into a smaller burst window.

I like HoPo and honestly I can't see why it's been removed from Prot. The multiple abilities on a charge system that builds and spends so similarly to HoPo is pointless, SotR charges should just be based on spending HoPo. This is coming from a Prot/Ret Paladin who played from vanilla to current, I have seen every iteration of the changes and HoPo IMO is for all 3 specs and without it would be total trash.

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Please no. Holy Power is the best thing they ever gave to ret

I agree, it at least gives a feeling of ammunition/build/reload that allows us to have something like an actual rotation. Without it, we'd be at any stage prior to the introduction of HoPo, that is to say, garbage DPS with a shallow rotation. I like depth plz.

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I certainly woulnd't mind going back to WotLk Ret and start from there, while it wasn't very intricate design, it atleast felt great to play.

Not only was it not intricate, it was shallow and there was no way to game, throttle, or control your output, it was 100% procs. That is to say... garbage.

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They really aren’t. Combo points chi hp all work the same way you use X ability to gain Y amount to use Z ability.

Runes in the other hand are gained passively or though a few select talents or ability’s depending on what iteration of the dk your on. Then there’s how runes we’re in the past with blood unholy frost and death where you could mix and match your rune use for different abilities giving you an amount of choice that combo points have never had.

Hell with the logic you are using you might as well Say rage is combo points as you need X amount to do Y or else you can’t do it or it’s less effective.

How naive must we be when trying to justify our positions on this debate?

You can't say two things are the same when different spec's builders, spenders, and resource caps are totally different? Try CP are different from HoPo in that CPs build 5-6 total, and spend 5-6 total, while HoPo build 1 or 2, store 5, and spend 3-5? That's a very different system. A revolver isn't identical to an Assault Rifle, they fire different cartridges at different rates, dealing different damage, and hold different capacities. That controls the ENTIRE flow rate of load>unload>reload. That's not as similar as you make it seem no matter what you say. The reason CPs, HPs, maelstrom charges, whatever, all have different numbers is because those numbers are at the very core of each spec's unique rotation, those numbers are what make them unique. Even different specs/talents of Rogue have different numbers of CPs, built and spent, as well as talents to change max stored and ways to keep extra/get refunds.

Chi has unique numbers and flow rates, Runes and RP have unique numbers and flow rates per spec, Rage has different flow rates and max stored counts for each of the 4 specs that use it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

How naive must we be when trying to justify our positions on this debate?

You can't say two things are the same when different spec's builders, spenders, and resource caps are totally different? Try CP are different from HoPo in that CPs build 5-6 total, and spend 5-6 total, while HoPo build 1 or 2, store 5, and spend 3-5? That's a very different system. A revolver isn't identical to an Assault Rifle, they fire different cartridges at different rates, dealing different damage, and hold different capacities. That controls the ENTIRE flow rate of load>unload>reload. That's not as similar as you make it seem no matter what you say. The reason CPs, HPs, maelstrom charges, whatever, all have different numbers is because those numbers are at the very core of each spec's unique rotation, those numbers are what make them unique. Even different specs/talents of Rogue have different numbers of CPs, built and spent, as well as talents to change max stored and ways to keep extra/get refunds.

Chi has unique numbers and flow rates, Runes and RP have unique numbers and flow rates per spec, Rage has different flow rates and max stored counts for each of the 4 specs that use it.

I mean you’d have to be pretty naive to think that the difference is as great as between a revolver and an assault rifle. Hell if the gap was that big Mabye HP wouldn’t suck so much.

I never said they had to have the same damage/cooldown but HP and combo points function the same way, chi is a bit different and I Probably shouldn’t have counted it with the other two and runes are even further apart from them.

[Gungnir]

False about the CD on TV, because the HoPo system was DESIGNED specifically to allow us to delay TVs until we could chain two/three into a smaller burst window.

And it still feels infinitely clunky, and something that could've been easily replicated.
Secondly, when you have periods of being able to absolutely SPAM 'finishers', they lose value and also a lot of power.

The reason why things like MoP destro warlock existed and was so satisfying to play was due to not being able to cast many Chaos Bolts in a row, but when you did you really chunked some hard damage.

I like HoPo and honestly I can't see why it's been removed from Prot. The multiple abilities on a charge system that builds and spends so similarly to HoPo is pointless, SotR charges should just be based on spending HoPo. This is coming from a Prot/Ret Paladin who played from vanilla to current, I have seen every iteration of the changes and HoPo IMO is for all 3 specs and without it would be total trash.

I think HoPo should've only been assigned to Prot and Holy, as it makes sense for those two specs and I actually prefer it.
Ret just doesn't fit with how clunky it becomes with JUST a combo point system. As previously stated, almost every spec has some form of amalgamation of two different resource systems to make the gameplay flow properly, be engaging and dynamic.
Ret doesn't have that, it's still stuck with a 'revamp' that was made nearly 10 years ago and it really shows with how outdated it is.

[Naeturefae]

Yeah, agreed. At least with combo points you can at some points decide to use less than 5 points if needed (even if rare I presume). Holy Power always consumes 3 points. And they really don't feel powerful either which makes it worse.

Unpopular opinion but I prefer Ret to be the class that hits slow (not Classic slow, mind you), but every attack hurts a lot or places a debuff that benefits the whole group/raid attacking the target.

Yep. Well described.

[StrawberryZebra]

I think you'd still be getting a lot of sword of justice type abilities that are just a reskinned toned down version of something older. (exorcism was miles better cause of range for example). Or something like wake of ashes or divine storm. Taken away and given back as an option for a talent instead.

Just because that's what the Devs would end up giving us, doesn't mean there's no space for other skills to be added.

Off the top of my head, what if the Paladin had an ability that threw a sword made of light at their opponent, that exploded behind them on contact creating an incomplete circle of blades. Crossing the blades would shatter them causing damage and slow, but there would be a gap you could exit through at the front, forcing you to either face the Paladin in combat or to flee and suffer the Paladin possiably catching up with you anyway.

It would be a visually appealing ability, thematically appropriate creating a sanctified dueling area that punishes those who flee justice and would be a fun and unique ability that no other class has access to. In PvE, it would be an acceptable AoE slow for M+ affixes that need them. In PvP it would help with limiting other classes mobility, as well as creative use cases to create choke points and no-go areas for other players.

Not only was it not intricate, it was shallow and there was no way to game, throttle, or control your output, it was 100% procs. That is to say... garbage.

The only proc was for an instant cast on either Exorcism and Flash of Light, which triggered 100% of the time whenever you got a crit with any melee attack. With raid buffs you were looking at ~20% crit chance right out of the gate wearing leveling greens. Towards the end of the expansion something like 45% crit chance wasn't even out of the question, with Judgment having something like an extra 20% on top of that. Unless you were using it on FoL, it was highly unlikely you wouldn't have it up by the time exorcisms cooldown was back up.

[Velerios]

I don't agree entirely with how to replace Divine Steed. I do think it SHOULD be replaced - but in my preference Pursuit of Justice. We don't have a sprint, instead a speed boost at all time to make up for it - meaning we can't chase someone on demand but we can still catch up.

If you want to play a class without charge and having a useless class: classic is there for you. Divine Steed is simply the best Paladin spell blizzard made the last few expansions, and nothing needs to be replaced.

Still: if you want it, i would have nothing against a talent row with multiple choices: for example: as you said Pursuit of Justice could be an option there: it would replace Divine Steed, so you can have your speed boost too. If we take the talent rows now, i would make Long Arm of the Law, Eye for an eye (with probably a longer CD) and Blessing of Spellwarding baseline for all specs (and not replace Blessing of Protection, just share a cooldown with it), and add Pursuit of Justice there, that simply replaces Divine Steed. A bonus for everyone.

[mickybrighteyes]

Just because that's what the Devs would end up giving us, doesn't mean there's no space for other skills to be added.

Off the top of my head, what if the Paladin had an ability that threw a sword made of light at their opponent, that exploded behind them on contact creating an incomplete circle of blades. Crossing the blades would shatter them causing damage and slow, but there would be a gap you could exit through at the front, forcing you to either face the Paladin in combat or to flee and suffer the Paladin possiably catching up with you anyway.

It would be a visually appealing ability, thematically appropriate creating a sanctified dueling area that punishes those who flee justice and would be a fun and unique ability that no other class has access to. In PvE, it would be an acceptable AoE slow for M+ affixes that need them. In PvP it would help with limiting other classes mobility, as well as creative use cases to create choke points and no-go areas for other players.

so... blade of justice with an aoe added on.

[paxen]

Paladins not having a sprint, just constant 120% run speed, and no real snare, just setting opponents to 100% speeed is a very good way of modelling indomitable pursuit - the lawman who pursues the outlaw from town to town, never quitting, or the movie slasher that calmly walks while the victims run and stumble around. (The latter may not be the best fit for paladins, but hey!)

Basing Retribution on Arcane Mage, but melee would be interesting. They shouldn't go back to mana + cooldowns, so if Ret dumps HP for a mana-like* system they need something to manipulate it. Crusader Strike costs some mana but reduces cost of TV and DS, Exorcism costs a bit more but has good range and damage.


*under BfA hybrid healing rules, ret would need a separate mana bar so that they can throw out powerful heals, but not for very long

[The Butt Witch]

Paladins not having a sprint, just constant 120% run speed, and no real snare, just setting opponents to 100% speeed is a very good way of modelling indomitable pursuit - the lawman who pursues the outlaw from town to town, never quitting, or the movie slasher that calmly walks while the victims run and stumble around. (The latter may not be the best fit for paladins, but hey!)

Basing Retribution on Arcane Mage, but melee would be interesting. They shouldn't go back to mana + cooldowns, so if Ret dumps HP for a mana-like* system they need something to manipulate it. Crusader Strike costs some mana but reduces cost of TV and DS, Exorcism costs a bit more but has good range and damage.


*under BfA hybrid healing rules, ret would need a separate mana bar so that they can throw out powerful heals, but not for very long

Lol, any spec with a snare would run circles around a pala.
As a Hunter main, I approve.

[Lucetia]

I certainly woulnd't mind going back to WotLk Ret and start from there, while it wasn't very intricate design, it atleast felt great to play.

WotLK Ret was only fun with I got to play Ret Roulette with the tier set that procced free Divine Storms on top of Divine Purpose so you could Divine Storm while Divine Storming.

[paxen]

Lol, any spec with a snare would run circles around a pala.
As a Hunter main, I approve.

Well, palas would have some sort of "always moves at at least 100%" ability, duh.

The slasher killer never gets stuck! (Except in stuff like Scary Movie)

[The Butt Witch]

Well, palas would have some sort of "always moves at at least 100%" ability, duh.

The slasher killer never gets stuck! (Except in stuff like Scary Movie)

That would be silly. Permanent Hand of Freedom would just make rets best flag carriers in the game, and absolutely ridiculous.