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  1. #41
    There are a lot of advantages for a poor country like Mexico to have the richest nation in the world as a neighbor. However, when that neighbor has a 100 billion plus per year illicit drug problem (135b by the latest estimate) and is also world’s largest firearm supplier in the world, the disadvantages start to outweigh the advantages.

    The cartels would not be anywhere near as powerful as they are now without the US' appetite for illegal drugs and the ease of obtaining firearms from the US.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    Then they are breaking two laws. One for straw purchase and one for perjury. It is illegal to do this. You're trying to pass this process off as if it's entirely legal for the people to supply firearms to the Mexican cartels. It is illegal at every step.
    You're trying to pass this off as something that can't be stopped by additional government legislation. There's no interest from the GOP in stopping straw purchases. Gun purchases are difficult to track by design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanknasty View Post
    Less dangerous than a "fast and furious" Obama admin too I suppose...
    And here it is. I was wondering when someone was going to whine about this. And take the wrong lesson to boot. This Bush2 era program was handled poorly but the problem is not that it went wrong during Obama's presidency. Its that the GOP won't allow the ATF to put a stop to straw purchases. After F&F ended straw purchases continued entirely unabated.

    But hey you got to mock Obama at the expense of dead Mexicans. Kudos.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post

    The actual number is likely higher than the 70% that was quoted in the GAO report. The 17% of non-US origin only meant that the weapons were not manufactured in the US. But they still could have been bought in the US then transported to Mexico. The 13% of Undetermined Origin likely refers to weapons that were assembled in Mexico using parts purchased in the US.

    Mexico only submit serial numbers for around 25% of the guns confiscated in Mexico to be checked by the FBI.
    It sort of invalidates the entire survey though, really. They only submit 20-25% of guns, and of that 70% comes from the USA. (not "manufactured in US" since ATF trances all guns imported/exported through the USA also) It's reasonable to assume that they trace the guns that are MARKED with the USA markings. Likewise, the 70% number does not indicate "sold at retail in USA", it indicates that a trace was made and a path was shown.

    For instance, SIG in Germany had a contract with the US state department, some guns from Germany, some from USA, all went to USA. The contract was that the guns would go through the state department and then be shipped to Columbia. Any of those guns that went from Columbia to Mexico would still be traced through the USA.

    The other article also COMPLETELY ignores Fast & Furious, where the Obama administration told folks to sell guns to the cartel buyers so they could maybe eventually be traced or something and portrays it as "corrupt gun stores sell to mexican drug lords!!!!".

    Why only 25%?

    Partly because of bureaucratic red tape. Partly because the Mexican police is not the best at accounting and documentation and keeping track of the firearms that they confiscated. The cartels also have this annoying habit of erasing serial numbers from firearms to keep it from being traced back to the original sellers.
    Also because a lot of them are machineguns that can't be sold in the USA in this manner. They also include grenades and many other weapons.

    And of course, the Mexican government gets plenty of guns from the USA that go missing, and they're certainly not going to trace their own LEO guns when a cartel gets them.

    Although the actual number is probably debatable, we won't be too far off if we just say more than half of the guns used by the Cartels in Mexico come from the US.
    Taurus cranks out tons of guns down in Brazil and of course a lot of AK's end up in the cartel hands and they are a lot cheaper on the world market (in full auto) than the US market. Ship's full of cocaine are a lot bulkier than crates full of AK's.

    Obviously the USA market is a big place full of guns, but it's not like it's the only one.

    Equally obviously, Mexico and the USA should cooperate on hindering the trafficing of firearms as much as possible. In fact, I think Mexico should build a wall, and make the US pay for it!!!
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  4. #44
    Some parts are extremely dangerous, some parts are better. I would never go there just as i would never go to brazil, honduraz or el salvador to name a couple places.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    Mexico doesn't have oil.
    It does, in 2007 Mexico was the 7th oil producer. It just only benefits the central governments.
    "It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people."

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And here it is. I was wondering when someone was going to whine about this. And take the wrong lesson to boot. This Bush2 era program was handled poorly
    So we're clear, Bush did Linebacker, which involved GPS trackers inplanted into guns which were then directed into the cartel market in order to track the location of cartel hideouts. After a short stint, it stopped because it was considered ineffective and not worth the risk.

    but the problem is not that it went wrong during Obama's presidency.
    By "went wrong", you mean Linebacker was reinstated as Fast & Furious, but without the GPS trackers and with a lot more guns and without notifying the Mexican government until years later when a border guard was killed with one of the rifles?

    And then the congressional investigation was blocked by Obama covering for his wingman and blocking congressional subpoenas for documents?

    Its that the GOP won't allow the ATF to put a stop to straw purchases. After F&F ended straw purchases continued entirely unabated.
    You don't understand what F&F was, nor what straw purchasing is, do you? A straw purchaser has a background check and various documents sent in when purchasing more than 1 firearm. This means ATF has a record of repeated purchases and can investigate all sorts of things with these people... but ATF doesn't bother. GOP isn't blocking anything, ATF just doesn't GIAF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Some parts are extremely dangerous, some parts are better. I would never go there just as i would never go to brazil, honduraz or el salvador to name a couple places.
    A lot of the tourist areas are heavily guarded and comparatively safe. A lot of more rural areas that are not along the border and such not that bad either.

    But don't stray from the tourist areas, your best hope is that you'll only be robbed.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerul View Post
    Cartels took control of the Mexican government. America should restore the democracy in Mexico.
    Why would it do that again, when cartels take care of the annoyingly illegal drug business and weapons buying? You think people are cool with US government deposing the cartels and taking up the business themselves? Or did you really think the demand for drugs disappears in a blink of an eye?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    A lot of the tourist areas are heavily guarded and comparatively safe. A lot of more rural areas that are not along the border and such not that bad either.

    But don't stray from the tourist areas, your best hope is that you'll only be robbed.
    Well i have heard they got some pretty sweet diving spots there so there is that atleast.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Well i have heard they got some pretty sweet diving spots there so there is that atleast.
    I've known plenty of people that go to Dominican Republic which can be similar. Great spots, waves, lots of stuff, stick to tourist spots or body never found again.

    As opposed to Haiti, where a few folks I know that went there on various tasks, you're told not to like touch the money with your bare hands because it can make you sick.

    Just don't be one of the "first worlders" that go camping in X to prove that X is safe and it's just the news making it seem dangerous.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    It sort of invalidates the entire survey though, really. They only submit 20-25% of guns, and of that 70% comes from the USA. (not "manufactured in US" since ATF trances all guns imported/exported through the USA also) It's reasonable to assume that they trace the guns that are MARKED with the USA markings. Likewise, the 70% number does not indicate "sold at retail in USA", it indicates that a trace was made and a path was shown.

    For instance, SIG in Germany had a contract with the US state department, some guns from Germany, some from USA, all went to USA. The contract was that the guns would go through the state department and then be shipped to Columbia. Any of those guns that went from Columbia to Mexico would still be traced through the USA.

    The other article also COMPLETELY ignores Fast & Furious, where the Obama administration told folks to sell guns to the cartel buyers so they could maybe eventually be traced or something and portrays it as "corrupt gun stores sell to mexican drug lords!!!!".


    Also because a lot of them are machineguns that can't be sold in the USA in this manner. They also include grenades and many other weapons.

    And of course, the Mexican government gets plenty of guns from the USA that go missing, and they're certainly not going to trace their own LEO guns when a cartel gets them.



    Taurus cranks out tons of guns down in Brazil and of course a lot of AK's end up in the cartel hands and they are a lot cheaper on the world market (in full auto) than the US market. Ship's full of cocaine are a lot bulkier than crates full of AK's.

    Obviously the USA market is a big place full of guns, but it's not like it's the only one.

    Equally obviously, Mexico and the USA should cooperate on hindering the trafficing of firearms as much as possible. In fact, I think Mexico should build a wall, and make the US pay for it!!!
    It is possible that some cartels' firearms come from Central America. On the other hand, although we don't know for sure how many, a lot guns used for crime in Central America came from the US.

    Guess Where the Gangs Get Their Guns?

    The ATF’s man in El Salvador will be glad to tell you


    By the ATF’s count, more than a third of the traceable guns seized from criminals last year in the Northern Triangle that originated from the United States were purchased from a retail dealer. The weapons are then smuggled south in cars and trucks, or in checked airline luggage, air freight, or even boats. That may sound like a lot of effort, but buying from U.S. gun stores is a lot more convenient for gang members. Thanks to our lax gun laws, there is little official paper trail, and the weapons (Northern Triangle gangs favor semi-automatic pistols) are cheaper than buying locally. “It’s a lot easier for me to go to a gun store in the U.S., buy a Glock, and ship it in parts in a microwave oven and have it show up at a relative’s house,” Penate says. He’d recently helped trace a gun recovered in El Salvador that had been purchased only six days earlier from a licensed dealer near Baltimore. When the “time-to-crime” is that short, he explained, the gun was probably “specifically purchased to be trafficked.” And just this month, an Indianapolis man was sentenced to 39 months in federal prison after he admitted to buying 28 handguns for shipment to Honduras, some of them tucked inside a plastic three-drawer CD organizer.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Blade Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    I went to Tijuana back in college.

    Never seen so many beautiful tits in one place since. Not even in Louisiana Mardi Gras 99`.

    These girls would let you motor boat for .50 cents bro. FIFTY CENTS. OMFG. .. . . just thinking about it.
    Thanks for giving me the image of Tobey Maguire motor boating a random girl with that crying face.
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    The people who cry for censorship aren't going to be buying the game anyway. Censoring it, is going to piss off the people who were going to buy it.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    It is possible that some cartels' firearms come from Central America. On the other hand, although we don't know for sure how many, a lot guns used for crime in Central America came from the US.

    Guess Where the Gangs Get Their Guns?

    The ATF’s man in El Salvador will be glad to tell you
    And here we see the problem. Straw purchase has max sentence of 10 years. 28 counts and he gets 39 months and probably out in 2 years. Very low prosecution rates for this and low sentencing when prosecuted

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskyjack View Post
    Kinda depends where you are. The tourist areas are nice.
    You know why the tourist areas are nice? Armed guards.

  14. #54
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    You know why the tourist areas are nice? Armed guards.
    So like tourists areas in the US?

    Mexico is as dangerous for as a tourist as the US is for them.

    Don't go to places you aren't familiar, travel smart, mind your business, respect your surroundings.

    You know what, maybe it's more secure because it's a major hit to their economy if tourists areas are deemed unsafe. Meanwhile US tourist areas tend to blend right into local areas that can be very dangerous and unfriendly to outsiders.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    By "went wrong", you mean Linebacker was reinstated as Fast & Furious, but without the GPS trackers and with a lot more guns and without notifying the Mexican government until years later when a border guard was killed with one of the rifles?
    By wrong, I mean the ATF guy who let the weapons in particular walk that killed those border agents served as a whistle blower to cover his own ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    And then the congressional investigation was blocked by Obama covering for his wingman and blocking congressional subpoenas for documents?
    Yet somehow the investigation was concluded anyways. Issa is a peacock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    You don't understand what F&F was, nor what straw purchasing is, do you? A straw purchaser has a background check and various documents sent in when purchasing more than 1 firearm. This means ATF has a record of repeated purchases and can investigate all sorts of things with these people... but ATF doesn't bother. GOP isn't blocking anything, ATF just doesn't GIAF.
    The ATF doesn't have the resources to GIAF. Explain why the documents are on paper and not tracked on computer please. Actually, don't. The answer is the GOP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    And here we see the problem. Straw purchase has max sentence of 10 years. 28 counts and he gets 39 months and probably out in 2 years. Very low prosecution rates for this and low sentencing when prosecuted
    Here's another problem. Selling drugs is also illegal. Yet somehow that doesn't stop the drugs from coming. Until a gunshop is required to tell a prospective straw purchaser to fuck off, the problem will continue. Similarly restricting ammunition and accessories might also help.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So like tourists areas in the US?

    Mexico is as dangerous for as a tourist as the US is for them.

    Don't go to places you aren't familiar, travel smart, mind your business, respect your surroundings.

    You know what, maybe it's more secure because it's a major hit to their economy if tourists areas are deemed unsafe. Meanwhile US tourist areas tend to blend right into local areas that can be very dangerous and unfriendly to outsiders.
    Wat?

    Last I checked entire families weren't being murdered because they thought they were a rival cartel in the U.S.....

  17. #57
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Wat?

    Last I checked entire families weren't being murdered because they thought they were a rival cartel in the U.S.....
    Do you watch the news? Replace cartel with gangs, cops, and family members. You have the US.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Do you watch the news? Replace cartel with gangs, cops, and family members. You have the US.
    People getting caught in the crossfire from a driveby shooting is a far cry from the systematic murder of an entire family, nice try.

    Three adults, six children dead, six more children wounded. Tell me the last time you've heard of a gang in the U.S. doing that.
    Last edited by Aurrora; 2019-11-12 at 08:50 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    The US is not helping. We are not only the Cartel's biggest consumers, we are also the Cartel's #1 firearm providers.

    In Mexico, Tens Of Thousands Of Illegal Guns Come From The U.S.
    yeah, if only we had a big giant wall to help stop it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    By wrong, I mean the ATF guy who let the weapons in particular walk that killed those border agents served as a whistle blower to cover his own ass.
    The program didn't go "wrong" by it being found out about, that's just wierd to think. It went wrong because there was no way for it to work as intended.

    Yet somehow the investigation was concluded anyways. Issa is a peacock.
    With no results and little publicity. Certainly the guns were never recovered except where they show up at crime scenes.

    The ATF doesn't have the resources to GIAF. Explain why the documents are on paper and not tracked on computer please. Actually, don't. The answer is the GOP.
    I can't explain why the multiple-tracking forms are on paper and not tracked on computer, since they are both on paper and also tracked on computer...
    ATF doesn't care about punishing people, they care about large busts to get press. The main resources needed are on the Federal Prosecuters side, really. The cost of a trial is expensive and we need more of them if we're to enforce existing law.

    But no, you're right, it's better to pass new laws that won't be enforced so folks can feel better that they're doing something about crime. Maybe we need a "fight crime" wrist band? That'll get the job done.

    Here's another problem. Selling drugs is also illegal. Yet somehow that doesn't stop the drugs from coming. Until a gunshop is required to tell a prospective straw purchaser to fuck off, the problem will continue. Similarly restricting ammunition and accessories might also help.
    I mean, they are required and they do refuse it, it was actually what F&F was about was getting dealers that didn't want to allow purchases, to sell the guns. And the answer to the drug problem is usually 'legalize it", so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So like tourists areas in the US?

    Mexico is as dangerous for as a tourist as the US is for them.
    Not really. The USA has some bad areas, certainly, but they are generally a small portion of the general area rather than Mexico or similar areas that have a dedicated tourist area strictly guarded surrounded by slums. The USA lacks the guards because they're generally not needed. It's more about ratio's, I guess, but the odds of wandering into the wrong area in most parts of the USA are pretty slim.

    Don't go to places you aren't familiar, travel smart, mind your business, respect your surroundings.
    I work in tourist areas, and the people that flash their money around... these are the people that would probably get in the wrong cab and never be heard from again in Mexico.

    You know what, maybe it's more secure because it's a major hit to their economy if tourists areas are deemed unsafe. Meanwhile US tourist areas tend to blend right into local areas that can be very dangerous and unfriendly to outsiders.
    You do get crackdowns in USA tourist areas if something big happens, so a lot of the locals don't want the heat anyway. Rob you, maybe, murder your entire family? probably not.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

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