Diablo 4 to feature microtransactions

[lordlosh]

Exactly but we make our point long ago, and they just repeat the same s**** with every comments, its a useless discussion and i always try to avoid these.
At the end of the day MTX is a matter of preference if you like them or not, they are 100% optional, if you don`t want a game that have MTX at it, just don`t buy the game at all, complain will do exactly nothing, but people still complain just for the sake of it.
For that i will just move on for good.

[Kolvarg]

Let me start from the bottom. This is simply not true. Just look at game like POE.
In Apex Legends you have 2 way, to collect "coins" and unlock skins/character or straight up buy them. People complain how grindy was to unlock it, but you can still unlock them right ? I unlock almost everything for 3-4 months of play, which is nothing. But still people complain, just because they are lazy and want easy time.

Both PoE and Apex Legends are free-to-play, so they are a different beast than D4 to start with. I don't play either so I can't comment on how grindy or not they are. I'm fine with cosmetic mtx as a monetization system on free games, even if I don't prefer it, and especially if you can also obtain most of the store items at a reasonable rate.

I still believe even free-games are worse than they could be if they have mtx. But I understand that for many games that's the only profitable path.

As far as WoW goes, and that paid cosmetics looks better than the set you can acquire, this is simply not true.

Bullshit. Of course what looks best will be subjective, but it's not subjective that the majority of cosmetic items in the WoW store are much more unique, while the majority of in-game obtained comparable items are very similar to previously existing ones, many times just recolors.

As far as people that want MTX are minority, this is simply not true, its the majority of people that want and like majority for plenty of reason.

Based on what? And what are those reasons? I asked you to give me a good reason why people might actively want mtx, and you have given none.

On the other hand a quick google search lands this:
Only 1% of players in favour of microtransactions model, Qutee report says

As far as you include only Diablo team, thats not how its work. Blizzard is not only Diablo, and they don`t pay only Diablo team salary, you get it now ?
Its like cutting 90% of a brand like BMW, and to just look at the production of series 3. Its a whole company and its depend on all project across.

Yes, the whole company depends on all project across. But we are not talking about all projects across, otherwise we would also be analyzing the profit of all projects across, which we are not.

If you want to look at the profitability of series 3 specifically, you look at the resources involved in series 3.

Today gamers are spoiled kids and they find to complain just for everything.
And yeah you can buy game and cry about it all you want, no problem with that, but don`t get mad when someone told you a crybaby or spoiled kids then.
If you don`t like something and you mostly complain only, then you are simply are masochist. Games are for joy/fun, pleasure. Not to rage about it 24/7.

This is a discussion forum, people are not crying just because they disagree with you. That type of ad-hominem only makes you seem childish and as if you have no actual arguments to defend your opinion.

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You know, 3D models are not free either? And the people operating the Servers are also not free. And the Servers are ALSO not free

Did you miss the rest of the post, or did you purposefully ignore it? Even including server costs, do you honestly believe the costs of making a model and selling 1M copies of, for example, a MTX mount, are even comparable to the costs of planning and producing 1M copies of a car part to sell?

If server costs are a problem, maybe don't make all your game require servers. Not every game needs to be an always-online MMO-lite game-as-service.

[oldgods]

They said they won't sell power. What's the big issue with cosmetic MTX? Because you can't grind/quest for them? I mean sure, I'd rather I could attain all of it by playing but it's not going to impact my gameplay experience in the end.

[Beefhammer]

So a much smaller company can give away cosmetic items for free but a billion dollar corporation can't. You didn't really help your argument there...

You missed my point. CDPR is a Polish company. That most likely has a completely different set of parameters for profitability than large billion dollar corporations do in America. Priorities are different is all I am saying. Sure Blizzard could give cosmetics away for free.

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And since D3 got way better after the AH got removed that's a good thing.

But it got way better because of the support afforded to them by the RMAH. Nothing changed or really improved to the same degree since. That sounds like a bad thing. RoS, Necromancer, that new boss, new mobs, and new areas were all being made while the RMAH was in place. It was removed when RoS was released, and guess what? That second expansion never got finished. Just given to us as pieces. If there was continuous revenue coming in we would have seen a full 3rd act expansion.

I feel you are being deliberately obtuse to this notion just because you dislike monetization in games.

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I can agree with this, though i also think there are very different ways to implement them in games. The PoE shop imho is one of the most fair things about mtx currently implemented. It's all optional stuff with some QoL things but all content is completely free.

Obviously they need it because the game is free - otherwise covering the development costs and possibly having a profit would be just impossible.

I think the two concepts needs to be separated.
On one side, you have the "i want to pay once and have all". As far as we know, D4 will be exactly that - you buy the game once and then play all content. Buy the expansion and pay the new content and so on. As most people like it to be if i have to follow the forum threads and posts.
On the other you have the "mtx are not needed to be profitable and they're just milking money". I agree but with a caveat - i don't (and probably all of us) know what are the real costs of development, maintenance, support, marketing, etc. I definitely would like the game to not have any kind of shop. I also agree with the fact that this whole system is just dictated by the fact that companies and investors thrive not on profit, but on MORE AND EVERGROWING profit, which is just unsustainable.

Unfortunately, the only way for things to change is to have people either not buy the game at all or not to partake in MTX. Which we all know it's not going to happen.

I just gave up. I only hope that the whole thing is managed in the right way so it's not an obnoxious, intrusive, lootbox-infested shit tier shop. Again, PoE shop is just done right and they should just copy that.

I spent money on PoE. I bought the tabs because i like my loot to be organized, but i'm not a hoarder so no quad tabs or such. I have a couple xmogs mostly because i spent the spare points i had. So even in that, i just get the small minimum amount of stuff i actually feel i need, as xmogs are cool but totally useless in my mind. I play ARPGs because i love efficiency, not to play doll dress-up.

TIL cosmetics in D4 is considered content. However MMO-Champ has always told me that stuff like this in WoW is not content.

I would counter that the PoE shop is not done the right way from a players perspective even though I have no issues with in game shops. I am not a big time player or Fan, but really there is no good looking items in game. And yes, I feel the store gear looks like shiny shit, it is still leaps and bounds better that anything you could get in the game. I know that is the only way for CCC to fund the game so I get it.

I don't expect it to be like that in D4 sine Blizzard has a long history of having good looking items in game and in the shop. I also am not convinced we are getting armor and weapons nor tons of flashy/glowy stuffs due to the nature of the art direction in D4. I expect, and can be wrong, items like what we have in D3, pets, wings, banners, and add in mounts and/or mount accessories. When they mentioned trading, Blizzard said they wanted players to play the game to get the best items, not go around finding other who are trading them. So I doubt they will be selling sweet armor or weapons.

[Kumorii]

For decades selling the game alone did that, and it certainly still can. Just look at the many, many solid games without MTX that generate sequels.

Sequels are there because it's not free extra content... Nothing is free.
Selling games did that back in the day because the price was 60 if not more (remember nes cartridges going for 80 bucks where I'm from) and rarely contained free content updates like games do nowadays. While the development costs have gone up, the price hasn't. Why? Because they can earn more from mtx from people who chose to buy them.

Selling a game is covering the development costs for that game + profits. Not for costs of development + extra content + profit. That's just delusional.

Players crave new content for their games, why they think that content should be free is just entitlement. And as I've mentioned before, if you LIKE free extra content, why not let others buy cosmetics which allows you to get said free content?
I can understand arguments against lootboxes... I can't understand arguments for mtx's in general....to me that simply means I get free content for my games.

[Beefhammer]

Sequels are there because it's not free extra content... Nothing is free.
Selling games did that back in the day because the price was 60 if not more (remember nes cartridges going for 80 bucks where I'm from) and rarely contained free content updates like games do nowadays. While the development costs have gone up, the price hasn't. Why? Because they can earn more from mtx from people who chose to buy them.

Selling a game is covering the development costs for that game + profits. Not for costs of development + extra content + profit. That's just delusional.

Players crave new content for their games, why they think that content should be free is just entitlement. And as I've mentioned before, if you LIKE free extra content, why not let others buy cosmetics which allows you to get said free content?
I can understand arguments against lootboxes... I can't understand arguments for mtx's in general....to me that simply means I get free content for my games.

I mean, do people actually think developing a game today is equivalent to developing a game from say 20 years ago? Go look at the WotLK zones compared to Legion zones and try to tell me that more work was put into the Wrath zones. Games take so much more resources to make today. The need for revenues post initial purchase is almost needed.

[DSRilk]

Sequels are there because it's not free extra content... Nothing is free.
Selling games did that back in the day because the price was 60 if not more (remember nes cartridges going for 80 bucks where I'm from) and rarely contained free content updates like games do nowadays. While the development costs have gone up, the price hasn't. Why? Because they can earn more from mtx from people who chose to buy them.

Selling a game is covering the development costs for that game + profits. Not for costs of development + extra content + profit. That's just delusional.

Players crave new content for their games, why they think that content should be free is just entitlement. And as I've mentioned before, if you LIKE free extra content, why not let others buy cosmetics which allows you to get said free content?
I can understand arguments against lootboxes... I can't understand arguments for mtx's in general....to me that simply means I get free content for my games.

The price hasn't gone up for a variety of reasons, including expectation, availability of existing game engines, and a much larger pool of consumers to name a few. MTX may play a roll now, but it certainly didn't before. MTX exists because they *can* generate more profit not because they *must*. That was my only point.

Also, it isn't a matter of entitlement, it's a matter of preferred business model. I'm not looking for *free* extra content, I'm just look for extra content in general (assuming the game is any good), and I have no qualms about paying for it. I prefer the old model of paying for a product and using it as I see fit. It's a model used by many, many successful game companies, so it's certainly a viable option. With a BtP model, I know what I'm getting, and I like that. With an MTX model, it really depends on what ends up on the shop and what's available in-game, and that can change over time.

MTX does not guarantee extra content, invokes FOMO, and many other potentially negative things. If you "can't understand arguments [against] MTX," I don't think you're trying very hard to look outside your own opinions. Both sides are very easy to see. BtP benefits those who can pay by eliminating the nonsense invoked by MTX. MTX benefits those who can't or don't want to pay.

I'd also be careful about throwing loaded phrases like "entitled" around at those who disagree with you, as honestly, the only people who seem to act "entitled" in this debate are those who literally want something for nothing and are happy to have others pay their way - i.e. those who support FtP with MTX.

[Rendark]

But it got way better because of the support afforded to them by the RMAH. Nothing changed or really improved to the same degree since. That sounds like a bad thing. RoS, Necromancer, that new boss, new mobs, and new areas were all being made while the RMAH was in place. It was removed when RoS was released, and guess what? That second expansion never got finished. Just given to us as pieces. If there was continuous revenue coming in we would have seen a full 3rd act expansion.

I feel you are being deliberately obtuse to this notion just because you dislike monetization in games.

Adding new stuff wasn't what made D3 good. It was blizzard having to fix the loot system after the AH was removed.

[quras]

I cant remember any not Bugfix patch that came after the Release of either Diablo2 or LoD. Care to enlighte us?

Sure, D2 went on for years and years without MTX and was supported all the while with fixes, changes, adjustments and only one paid expansion that also got multiple versions adjustments through the years. MTX not needed for sustainability.

I can't disregard the concern, but it's silly to get upset over something that hasn't happened yet and IMO isn't really all that likely to happen in this case. SNIP

I think it's silly to not be concerned now given how things go these days. There are a number of examples of why gamers would be upset over MTX. Better to get talks about it now in the hopes blizzard doesn't make similar mistakes we have seen in gaming for the sake of just another cash stream.

[Beefhammer]

Adding new stuff wasn't what made D3 good. It was blizzard having to fix the loot system after the AH was removed.

Funny. Loot 2.0 hit the game in Feb 2014, RoS was released in March 2014. Giving more evidence that the RMAH fueled the support.

[Kumorii]

I mean, do people actually think developing a game today is equivalent to developing a game from say 20 years ago? Go look at the WotLK zones compared to Legion zones and try to tell me that more work was put into the Wrath zones. Games take so much more resources to make today. The need for revenues post initial purchase is almost needed.

Well, seems like people act like it does considering "We used to just buy the game"... well yeah, was cheaper back then and also you rarely got content except bug fixes.

[Beefhammer]

Sure, D2 went on for years and years without MTX and was supported all the while with fixes, changes, adjustments and only one paid expansion that also got multiple versions adjustments through the years. MTX not needed for sustainability.




I think it's silly to not be concerned now given how things go these days. There are a number of examples of why gamers would be upset over MTX. Better to get talks about it now in the hopes blizzard doesn't make similar mistakes we have seen in gaming for the sake of just another cash stream.

All those were bug fixes and minor improvements or balance changes that have happened on PC games before MTXs. All major changes and additions came with expansion packs then back to bug fixes and minor changes.

I'm hard pressed to find a game that does things like seasons, D3 being a bad example, without the aid of monetization though.

[tankbug]

People still defending MTX in games which you pay full price for and are made by companies worth billions? I never understand it.

MTX in games is a cancer.

Why work on something that you don't get paid for? Part from expansions, the game will be left to rot if people don't keep putting money into it. Personally, I don't spend money on cosmetic rewards, but it doesn't bother me that people do either. If they want to pay for the game staying alive, that's just free entertainment for me.

[Beefhammer]

Well, seems like people act like it does considering "We used to just buy the game"... well yeah, was cheaper back then and also you rarely got content except bug fixes.

And they whole slippery slope thing is a strawman. Show me when has Blizzard ever gone for gameplay changing MTX, P2W, or only offering the best looking stuff on the shop? Of course best looking is subjective and should never be considered a legitimate argument. Also, no one is forcing anyone to buy any of it. So just play the game and ignore it or don't. I only see it as a positive that should keep D4 around with for years with a lot of additional content.

[Kumorii]

The price hasn't gone up for a variety of reasons, including expectation, availability of existing game engines, and a much larger pool of consumers to name a few. MTX may play a roll now, but it certainly didn't before. MTX exists because they *can* generate more profit not because they *must*. That was my only point.

Also, it isn't a matter of entitlement, it's a matter of preferred business model. I'm not looking for *free* extra content, I'm just look for extra content in general (assuming the game is any good), and I have no qualms about paying for it. I prefer the old model of paying for a product and using it as I see fit. It's a model used by many, many successful game companies, so it's certainly a viable option. With a BtP model, I know what I'm getting, and I like that. With an MTX model, it really depends on what ends up on the shop and what's available in-game, and that can change over time.

MTX does not guarantee extra content, invokes FOMO, and many other potentially negative things. If you "can't understand arguments [against] MTX," I don't think you're trying very hard to look outside your own opinions. Both sides are very easy to see. BtP benefits those who can pay by eliminating the nonsense invoked by MTX. MTX benefits those who can't or don't want to pay.

I'd also be careful about throwing loaded phrases like "entitled" around at those who disagree with you, as honestly, the only people who seem to act "entitled" in this debate are those who literally want something for nothing and are happy to have others pay their way - i.e. those who support FtP with MTX.

BtP only refers to current content, that excludes future content. Which means that future content needs to be payed for. Since it's BtP, no buy, no play. That's not what people demand however. They buy the game, then they often demand new content which should be free... that's entitlement. There is a reason why used the phrase "players" and not "you", I don't necessarily mean you for everything since I don't know what your position is and never assumed such. I just took your sequel comment as a stepping stone to give my view of it.

So yeah, the ones being entitled are the ones demanding new content and expect it to be free. Me enjoying getting free content because other pays for it isn't really entitlement since I don't demand it to be like that. I just benefit from it.
Overwatch has given me tons of maps and almost double the rooster of hero for free because of mtx... I never expected or demanded to get anything paid for or for free, i just did.

Granted I wasn't clear fully on my stance of mtx, for me they should just be cosmetic only... as long as it's buying power aka bethesda style then it's a bad model.
That's the thing, every single business model can be bad. Just because you pay for content doesn't mean it can't be overpriced so even a BtP can be a bad model if it's too expensive for what you get. So my view of mtx is in contrast of this thread, which is a cosmetic only implementation and that's the one I can't understand.
Your comment on that things can change over time is true both for mtx cosmetic only and BtP models.

Blizzard have a history for only doing cosmetic mtx... I see no reason why that would change regardless of doomsayers saying any in game shop will have buy power implemented "next time".

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And they whole slippery slope thing is a strawman. Show me when has Blizzard ever gone for gameplay changing MTX, P2W, or only offering the best looking stuff on the shop? Of course best looking is subjective and should never be considered a legitimate argument. Also, no one is forcing anyone to buy any of it. So just play the game and ignore it or don't. I only see it as a positive that should keep D4 around with for years with a lot of additional content.

I'm sure blizzard implements buying power "next patch"... it's all they are saying constantly.

[bloodykiller86]

People still defending MTX in games which you pay full price for and are made by companies worth billions? I never understand it.

MTX in games is a cancer.

yeah but atleast blizzard usually does them in the best way unlike other companies

[Maudib]

That's just like a piece of shit on a cake. Damn, why? Unless the "entry fee" for the game isn't just 10 or 20 bucks there is no reason to put micro-transactions in it

As long as idiots are willing to pay on this "new" monetization model... companies will keep switching to it.

Sad thing is... GGG makes good money by offering the game for free and selling cosmetic items and tab space.

Count on it... D4 wlll be selling tab space.

It's going to be another D3 anyway... hidden under some darker/drabber graphics. I'll pass thank you... PoE is a superior game and is 100% free to play... and extremely playable without spending a dime.

[Katchii]

Personally I don't think the MTX model is bad by itself, simply that there's just way too much of it, particularly in games which already include other monetization systems.

I think it's bad because their sole purpose is to make more money. They don't improve the games in any way, any buy-to-play game that has cosmetic mtx would be better if those cosmetics were obtainable in-game, and they have contributed to a move in the industry to non-cosmetic mtx.

I think the model has the potential to be bad and hinder a game but it doesn't have to, it all depends on the developer and how they implement it. I don't agree that they don't improve the game in any way or that everything would be better if they were all obtainable in-game.

With games having more support post launch in various forms, it makes sense for them to try and make more than just the box price of the game.

The thing is, with MTX, DLCs and stuff, the Budget of the games can Increase, without increasing the price of the base game.

E.g. I much prefer MTX/DLC over spending 20$ more on the BaseGame. (Or the BaseGame beeing made with much less Budget)
The game having MTX or DLC doesnt change the game for me. Because I´m realistic here. I dont and cant know if the game would be any Different with or without it.

Honestly, if I were Blizzard I would just cut any MTX related stuff from the game, cut the Budged and cut any features/content that would be made with the Additional Income they expected from the MTX, and then make a Post with numbers what these People actually loose.

The AH thing you always bring up for Diablo 3. Does anyone actually have the brain capacity to see that there were alot of Changes coming along with the AuctionHouse removal?
These things made the game infinitely more fun. Even if the AuctionHouse were still present in the game, that wouldnt change a damn thing.
Because:
1. You were never able to Buy/Sell Legendaries on the AH
2. The game literally revolves around Legendaries.

So, what made the game better?
The Removal of Auctionhouses, or the change to make Legendaries and Sets actually awesome?

1) I never brought up the D3 AH, so I don't know what you're getting at with those comments.

2) I was just advocating why people are justified in their mindset, because that was the precedent back then; that games released as a the finished product and you could earn everything in-game. Wasn't picking a side or saying that it should be that way now.

3) I agree with MTX being a good idea. With games now having online support, post launch support, etc... it makes sense for companies to make more than just the box price in order to support those things.

I think it's silly to not be concerned now given how things go these days. There are a number of examples of why gamers would be upset over MTX. Better to get talks about it now in the hopes blizzard doesn't make similar mistakes we have seen in gaming for the sake of just another cash stream.

My point is those concerns are already out there, other companies have already made those mistakes and Blizzard isn't stupid. Raising additional concerns won't hurt, I agree, but a lot of what I'm seeing in this thread are not "concerns" it's downright hatred for MTX, disappointment that the game has them to the point where people say they won't buy it or play it, and other negativity simply based on the fact that it will have MTX without knowing how exactly it will get implemented.

[Fitsu]

I for one am very happy there will be an in game shop, outside of Diablo 3 there isn't a single game I can think of that's gotten constant support after release that doesn't have some form of monetization so to me them adding some just shows they intend to constantly support the game after release.

So my question to the many of you that are clearly disappointed with this form of monetization... Would you expect them to constantly support the game without this and what makes you expect this?

[Deferionus]

Production costs decrease over time, not increase. For instance, World of Warcraft used to come with a box, a couple of CD's in a plastic case, an instruction manual, and a number of other physical items. There are no more physical items associated with the game except in some collector's edition which you pay for those physical items, yet despite this being the case the game is not any cheaper. There are other additional costs associated with the old model, such as storage of the items before sale, shipping, and the retailers cut, all which have disappeared, yet we receive no savings.

That is just one side in which games are cheaper to make, if we were to look on Blizzard's side we would see that there is still more savings yet. For example, every two years the amount of computing power you get for your money doubles, meaning that writing, drawing, rendering, compiling the game becomes much cheaper overtime. On top that the tools that are used to create the game have become far more sophisticated allowing for quicker and more robust content creation, which when combined with cheaper computing power, that is also cheaper. Also the power of workstations allow for a single person to do far more work than a Blizzard employee of the past, making each employee more productive. And on top of all these savings are the savings on the servers, the cost of which has dramatically decreased from the launch of Starcraft (which offered B.net for free) as the "cloud" industry began around the same time of the release of World of Warcraft.

Despite all these savings, the game is more expensive now than ever. Not only are there micro transactions, which functionally remove parts of the game you purchased (and continually support with a subscription fee) to sell back to you, and the a fore mentioned subscription fee, but Battle for Azeroth was $60 while including no game time, so to even play the game cost $75 at a minimum.

Computing power does not double every two years. Look up Moore's Law. And while they are more productive and have better tools, you also have an older game engine that has years of development with more evolving increasingly complex code to work with. If you make one change you have to go back and account for how it may impact every other game system. Make an engine change that allows for better tail movement on a reptile? Now suddenly your humanoid models are experiencing a problem and you have to fix it. If anything, the age of the game makes it even more challenging to produce content.

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They have increased sub cost in the eu and on top of that, server cost is exponentially lower than it used to be. This is just greed again

Server costs are lower, data storage costs are likely a bit cheaper though they store more data. Wages however have gone up and keep pace with inflation. I doubt people would be happy making the same amount someone did in 04' today with inflation and all.