Council? Actually, Baine is the unofficial Warchief

[Powerogue]

A council is still going to have a person to speak for the others.

Baine is an obvious pick anyways

I think they're just getting at that, for the first showing of the Council in action, they're not doing a lot of counseling, which is fair. I get that in the long run every cutscene with the Horde can't rope in the VA's of literally every Horde leader. That shiz expensive!

Though even outside of that Blizzard do seem to favor narrowed down focus. I think to the Desolate Council still being almost entirely composed of Velicinda "Elsie" (the incorruptibly pure Sylvanas fangirl loyalist) and Parqual (the one who convinces Calia to lead a defection). It's "those two plus I dunno maybe 20 others, mostly unnamed or with like one line."

- - - Updated - - -

Looking through the spoilers, I immediately see problems with the narrative of this thread.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...rrak-s-Revenge

The council is absolutely present, and I don't get any impression that Baine is the sole voice in it. In fact the whole point of the conflict is that he isn't, and with all the different races with all their different problems they're struggling enough right now figuring out this new system, but vulpera are welcome in Orgrimmar. The vulpera work to demonstrate that they can help reduce the number of troubles, rather than just add to the pile.

I'm not seeing a problem here that makes it out like the council isn't present. The entire core of the conflict is their coming to grips with the council approach.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, I do see very little difference between magically mind-controlling someone and torturing them until their character breaks, with the exception that the second is indeed even worse.
But otherwise I think your comparison are not really equal. Slavery is one thing, a crime for sure, but it is quite easily overshadowed by breaking the mind of a man so that he murders his family. This is the action of a terrorist not of a person claiming to lead a "nation" and no world leader would ever be able to openly admit to such an action simply because it is so horrendous, not just because of the lives lost. It's about what the nation itself becomes in the eyes of everyone else and even your own people when such acts are exceptable. There is a reason why there are such things as "crimes" even during wartime.
Which is exactly why Baine did what he did. It might have hit him especially hard since he was a friend of Jaina, but in essence he saw the Horde develop into Sylvanas personal terrorist group, casually commiting one warcrimes after the next, simply because Sylvanas does not give a damn about living people or anything besides herself (that much Baines knows unless he is blind). Neither he nor Saurfang could accept this and many of the other leaders should be their personal characterization have been just the same.

Oh, it's very morally unsound, but in terms of it being a fundamental violation of the Horde's values that was never done before, that's simply false - the Forsaken state was founded upon having banshees possess people to make them die for the cause. At every instance in its existence, the Horde has practiced chattel slavery or gladiatorial slavery, the latter upon actual allied races. Further, even if it was, the end goal of this incredibly retarded plan was to assassinate someone who'd ensured the Horde's defeat at two cities at relatively little cost. To kill your own side in order to enable his release, murdering more people in the process and once again, depriving them of any opportunity to express any free will to speak of as they'll be dead and thus unable to take decisions, is unjustified.

WoW has no war crimes provisions except in the form of a show trial where guilt was pre-assumed and those on trial knew that no verdict would be rendered and that the accusing parties were actually the ones being tested. Even if they did, I simply dismiss the notion outright that mind control/torture is somehow morally inferior to simply being dead. Any fate outside of death offers the opportunity of recovery. Being dead is the ultimate cost. Killing your own side in a war while reacting in no way at all to your own race's dead being defiled is pathetic and alone should've secured Baine a place on a branch. Doing so to benefit the enemy in a total war just seals the deal. Sylvanas's overall goals are comically evil, so much is true, but that does not render her opponents somehow morally infallible - they were wrong within the context of what they did, and Baine in particular is wrong even retroactively, because as said, he sent more people to hell in the process of his act.

@Aucald

Applying what Baine knew at the time - he killed his own side for an act practiced routinely in the Horde and one his own people were subjected to to his total apathy, in order to spare the enemy war asset that had secured two major losses for his faction thus far. He caused more net deaths and damaged the war effort while shaking the belief in Sylvanas of people who made no difference to the course of the war since the only one who kept the rebel army from being stomped at Orgrimmar was Saurfang, who'd already left.

Applying what we know retroactively, Baine sent more people to the Maw than would've died in the achievement of the scheme. That he could've killed more but chose not to is in no way laudable. Ergo, beyond the last bit of the prior paragraph still applying, he also failed in his intended goal.

@Powerogue

It's in the vulpera scenario. The vulpera show up to join the Horde and Baine says that he can't accept them because it'd overburden the horde, but they'd still be hospitable. Yes, Sylvanas delegated to others, but she initiated the accession of these groups. Baine also delegates, that's why the tasks that he refuses the vulpera over having to deal with are so mismanaged and require their intervention to solve. Delegation is among a leader's skills. Sylvanas had it. Baine doesn't. Also, you're wrong in your reading that this is a council problem - Baine is the one being petitioned and Baine has delegation rights, hence why he is being petitioned by the Nightborne and Zandalari instead of them referring to Thalyssra and Talanji. Baine is in this situation specifically, the highest instance.

[Candy Cough]

Baine out of all people should be the LAST to deny the Vulpera entry to the horde

The Vulpera has done literally nothing but sacrifice themselves for the horde, trading, being geonicided by the 7th legion, aiding us against the sethrak and what not. His conclusion was that he didn't want the horde to be spread thin.

I remember a couple years ago where the Tauren were being useless and getting massacred by the Centaur. Do you know who spread themselves thin to save their asses? Ah yes the orcs. Had it not been for the orcs the Bloodhoof tribe could have said bye bye to any future dreams of establishing any form of home.

The Vulpera has no enemies, we are at a cease fire with the alliance, what could possibly go wrong by letting them in?

People who want these boring peace hippies in charge really needs to be hit in the head with something hard or stop playing the game entirely. You can have interesting characters that aren't one dimensional traitors. Baine literally hates the horde, if its so bad fuck off, I'd much rather have Magatha

It's genuinely the first time im getting angry at a fictional character.

[Powerogue]

Applying what we know retroactively, Baine sent more people to the Maw than would've died in the achievement of the scheme. That he could've killed more but chose not to is in no way laudable. Ergo, beyond the last bit of the prior paragraph still applying, he also failed in his intended goal.

I can always count on you to make sure that when Baine does something wrong, it's always his fault and he should be thrown from the Horde for it regardless of context or intent, but when Sylvanas does something wrong, make excuses and blame the victims.

Does make me wonder though what our good ol' warchiefs would've done with the vulpera.

Garrosh: Slaughter them all and bathe in their blood for the glory of the orcs.
Sylvanas: Get someone else to do her job of recruiting them "It's called delegation, that makes me a good leader!" then proceed to get them all killed in fruitless faction warring and fed to a dark soul vortex to feed her own evil powers.

I mean I'm sure there's at least one person on these forums who would say those are a step up from vulpera being playable.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not seeing a problem here that makes it out like the council isn't present. The entire core of the conflict is their coming to grips with the council approach.

the decision to let or deny a race to join the horde SHOULD NOT falls under the shoulders of one person, if they are doing the "council" and let one people in charge doing all the things he is warchief but in name, then whats the point of the council? thats the problem

they just want people to shut up about warchief and give us one without the tittle

The bovine should at least said he CAN'T DECIDE this alone, so he can't deal with that now, instead of saying HE CANT LET THEN JOIN

and h need to get the fuck back to his own city.

[Kyphael]

I agree, he's an asshole. The "reluctance" to let them in was likely just to appease the Horde try hard purists, but really, who cares? They were going to be let in anyway, it's just pomp and circumstance, grandstanding and ceremonious BS.

[Powerogue]

As with the other thread, I don't see how the quest dialogue doesn't make it clear enough. It's not "we hate vulpera and don't respect what you've done for us" it's "we've kind of got too many of our own problems dealing with a new system of government right now and having everyone's needs met, we don't need to add more complexity to that pile. Feel free to chill in Org though, we cool."

[vsb]

Hey that's gray character ya'all wanted didn't ya?

[Arrashi]

I agree, he's an asshole. The "reluctance" to let them in was likely just to appease the Horde try hard purists, but really, who cares? They were going to be let in anyway, it's just pomp and circumstance, grandstanding and ceremonious BS.

Oh yeah, baine definately represents horde purists.

[Super Dickmann]

I can always count on you to make sure that when Baine does something wrong, it's always his fault and he should be thrown from the Horde for it regardless of context or intent, but when Sylvanas does something wrong, make excuses and blame the victims.

Considering that Sylvanas had no Horde victims in the Derek scheme, I don't really see your point here. Of course when Baine does something wrong, it's on him. Sylvanas is responsible for the retardation of her plan and for sending everyone to hell, but in the context of sending people to hell, Baine's intervention sent more people there while achieving nothing in terms of advancing her ouster than if he'd done nothing at all.

Garrosh: Slaughter them all and bathe in their blood for the glory of the orcs.
Sylvanas: Get someone else to do her job of recruiting them "It's called delegation, that makes me a good leader!" then proceed to get them all killed in fruitless faction warring and fed to a dark soul vortex to feed her own evil powers.

I mean, we know what they'd both do. Garrosh let the pandaren in and used even hozen when convenient. Provided you could carry your own weight and weren't a parasite who tried to overthrow him, Garrosh was fine with you. The vulpera did what the Darkspear or blood elves didn't in terms of contributing first and asking for returns later.

And re: Sylvanas, yes, she actively worked to bring those races in and chose people suited to do this, sinking huge amounts of resources into the Zandalari in particular and sticking by them even after they'd lost their main draw to the Horde and despite Bwon presumably having dibs on their souls. Being the Warchief, she gets the credit for recruiting them, just like how Baine still gets credit for bringing in the vulpera since he's the pseudo-Warchief and Thrall gets credit for the Stonemaul Ogres, Taunka Blood Elves and Forsaken, despite those being Rexxar, Saurfang/Garrosh, Sylvanas and Cairne's initiative respectively. That's how leadership works, you see.

Regarding the vulpera themselves, I loathe their furrybait visual design, but once you throw that out of the window they fit the WC3 Horde mold pretty well. Crucially, they're proactive - they go out and do things on their own, rather than waiting for others to do it for them. They seek out the Horde to join it and they do work for the Horde, rather than being passive parties that happen to be nabbed. It's just that their visuals are such that I can't really get into them. I don't really mind their addition too much, and their cast is decent for what it is. This is your daily reminder that there's more big name vulpera than big name orcs.

[Katchii]

Baine out of all people should be the LAST to deny the Vulpera entry to the horde

The Vulpera has done literally nothing but sacrifice themselves for the horde, trading, being geonicided by the 7th legion, aiding us against the sethrak and what not. His conclusion was that he didn't want the horde to be spread thin.

I remember a couple years ago where the Tauren were being useless and getting massacred by the Centaur. Do you know who spread themselves thin to save their asses? Ah yes the orcs. Had it not been for the orcs the Bloodhoof tribe could have said bye bye to any future dreams of establishing any form of home.

The Vulpera has no enemies, we are at a cease fire with the alliance, what could possibly go wrong by letting them in?

People who want these boring peace hippies in charge really needs to be hit in the head with something hard or stop playing the game entirely. You can have interesting characters that aren't one dimensional traitors. Baine literally hates the horde, if its so bad fuck off, I'd much rather have Magatha

It's genuinely the first time im getting angry at a fictional character.

Did you not even read the quest text? It provides plenty of context for WHY he made the decision initially.
@Powerogue summarized it well though.

It's not "we hate vulpera and don't respect what you've done for us" it's "we've kind of got too many of our own problems dealing with a new system of government right now and having everyone's needs met, we don't need to add more complexity to that pile. Feel free to chill in Org though, we cool."

[Paraka]

Considering that Sylvanas had no Horde victims in the Derek scheme, I don't really see your point here. Of course when Baine does something wrong, it's on him. Sylvanas is responsible for the retardation of her plan and for sending everyone to hell, but in the context of sending people to hell, Baine's intervention sent more people there while achieving nothing in terms of advancing her ouster than if he'd done nothing at all.


I mean, we know what they'd both do. Garrosh let the pandaren in and used even hozen when convenient. Provided you could carry your own weight and weren't a parasite who tried to overthrow him, Garrosh was fine with you. The vulpera did what the Darkspear or blood elves didn't in terms of contributing first and asking for returns later.

And re: Sylvanas, yes, she actively worked to bring those races in and chose people suited to do this, sinking huge amounts of resources into the Zandalari in particular and sticking by them even after they'd lost their main draw to the Horde and despite Bwon presumably having dibs on their souls. Being the Warchief, she gets the credit for recruiting them, just like how Baine still gets credit for bringing in the vulpera since he's the pseudo-Warchief and Thrall gets credit for the Stonemaul Ogres, Taunka Blood Elves and Forsaken, despite those being Rexxar, Saurfang/Garrosh, Sylvanas and Cairne's initiative respectively. That's how leadership works, you see.

Regarding the vulpera themselves, I loathe their furrybait visual design, but once you throw that out of the window they fit the WC3 Horde mold pretty well. Crucially, they're proactive - they go out and do things on their own, rather than waiting for others to do it for them. They seek out the Horde to join it and they do work for the Horde, rather than being passive parties that happen to be nabbed. It's just that their visuals are such that I can't really get into them. I don't really mind their addition too much, and their cast is decent for what it is. This is your daily reminder that there's more big name vulpera than big name orcs.

As I stated earlier, Garrosh knew a good sum of the Pandaren that join before your character sets foot in Orgrinmar. Meaning he already sees that potential to utilize the race, even through the character faction is coming in with practically nothing, no resources or military aid. Still accepted.

This would suggest Baine does not have the knowledge, after "years" of the lore war in BfA, of how resourceful Vulpera are and what this could mean. Baine, being the son of one of the most knowledgeable leaders of the Horde, the one that saw potential in the Forsaken, doesn't have the know-how or the connections to see this potential boon when the efforts are scarce.

And the Vulpera, of all things, have to REMIND Baine of what's it mean to be Horde.

[Stormdash]

Baine as de facto Warchief... more of Blizzard's strategy of writing the Horde in whatever way gets there most positive reaction from streamers who main Alliance.

[Super Dickmann]

And the Vulpera, of all things, have to REMIND Baine of what's it mean to be Horde.

I agree with your post entirely, but this is one of the parts I actually quite like. Having you first treat the peons to the carrot - but then also challenge their leader to show strength and that that doesn't mean you're soft and will let them do whatever was proper Horde.

[Friendlyimmolation]

God Baine forgetting that the Horde is strong when it’s together made me laugh.

[Combatbutler]

the decision to let or deny a race to join the horde SHOULD NOT falls under the shoulders of one person, if they are doing the "council" and let one people in charge doing all the things he is warchief but in name, then whats the point of the council? thats the problem

they just want people to shut up about warchief and give us one without the tittle

The bovine should at least said he CAN'T DECIDE this alone, so he can't deal with that now, instead of saying HE CANT LET THEN JOIN

Gotta love blizz council's they are pretty much nonexistent and only one person ever actually does something, until it is necessary that the council has to disagree with them, the prime example would be the council of the six, it took until legion until you at least saw the other members.

It seems blizz intends to pull pretty much the same crap here, they just don't commit. Either you do a council properly, or not at all.

[Aucald]

Applying what Baine knew at the time - he killed his own side for an act practiced routinely in the Horde and one his own people were subjected to to his total apathy, in order to spare the enemy war asset that had secured two major losses for his faction thus far. He caused more net deaths and damaged the war effort while shaking the belief in Sylvanas of people who made no difference to the course of the war since the only one who kept the rebel army from being stomped at Orgrimmar was Saurfang, who'd already left.

Applying what we know retroactively, Baine sent more people to the Maw than would've died in the achievement of the scheme. That he could've killed more but chose not to is in no way laudable. Ergo, beyond the last bit of the prior paragraph still applying, he also failed in his intended goal.

There was nothing apathetic about Baine's goal in freeing Derek. He wasn't in a position to aid any of the other Forsaken, given his complete lack of presence for most of their creation - but he made no bones of his opposition to it even then, and once he was in a position to act he did so at great personal risk to himself. You may well not agree with that decision, but it's about as far from "apathetic" as one can get. He also didn't cause any major losses in BfA to my knowledge unless you're calling Sylvanas' plan to use Derek as a "loss" on the presumption you know how it would've turned out, which seems unlikely on the face of it.

You also can't make a "applying what we knew at the time" type of argument and simultaneously blame Baine for "sending people to the Maw," which is a fate he knows nothing about at current. Sylvanas does, however, and think of how many people she's knowingly damned to the Maw in the execution of a war whose entire goal is feeding souls to the Maw, regardless of their faction. In light of that, even Baine's unknowing opposition to her is a net-positive.

[horbindr]

sometimes i wonder if all these people that shout "alliance sympathizer" are people that got into warcraft during/after cata.

thrall was a huge alliance sympathizer too, like to the point he let his people go hungry to keep the peace.

[Combatbutler]

sometimes i wonder if all these people that shout "alliance sympathizer" are people that got into warcraft during/after cata.

thrall was a huge alliance sympathizer too, like to the point he let his people go hungry to keep the peace.

And he was called out for that shit too, his ineptitude also brought Garrosh on the throne.

[Paraka]

I agree with your post entirely, but this is one of the parts I actually quite like. Having you first treat the peons to the carrot - but then also challenge their leader to show strength and that that doesn't mean you're soft and will let them do whatever was proper Horde.

And that is what gets me most about this. The Vulpera apparently learned working with us Horde characters what it meant to be Horde. They adapted ot to their own strategies, their culture essentially compliments it in an entirety. But Baine... Forgets this?

That's the part that is so disconnected. You can write Baine passive, I get it, but to a point he not only denies leadership of a new faction he should have known more about than Garrosh did of Pandaren... But also loose sight of what the Horde is to him? There is a reason people see Baine as a traitor, and it's writing like this. This isn't good leadership, it's amateur and it's sloppy. You can excuse Thrall with writing like that simply cause he entirely noped out of the Horde expansions ago.

The real cherry to this is there been many suggestions here that would otherwise keep his passive behavior in tact, but also the remnants of his pride. And him stating he cannot speak on it alone would been a solid example of the Horde being a council. If that's what Blizzard wants, they should write it as such.

And like you, I am not even remotely excited about more beastial races becoming playable. I see them as lazy, spin the NatGeo wheel and suddenly bam! New race. But even I can see their culture so very well above Baine.