Class feel is also about combat difficulty in solo content

[Gaidax]

Gotta say, you didn't exactly pick the best examples, did you?

It just shows that Creme de la Creme Classic players don't give rat's ass about leveling and want it done as fast as possible, because yes, it's just a boring chore and was that way forever.

If anything, them risking shit with exploits only further showcases that point.

[meleetoon]

Gotta say, you didn't exactly pick the best examples, did you?

It more than anything proves that people are just fueled by nostalgia, and also, want to just rush to the end.

also, "afking" i.e following an addon is what was implied, like, are you unable to grasp context (i know you aren't)

But go off.

Leveling in vanilla is "hard" because you can't regen health/mana at the end of combat, and your toolkit is dogshit. You can be in combat for like 30 mins on a disc priest with spirit tap fighting constantly if you pull 1 mob at a time. You can solo anything that doesn't leash on a hunter/druid. You can kill entire fields of mobs on mages. The only "plus" is that there are 60 levels opposed to 120.

But again, i reiterate. You 100% haven't leveled any toons recently so you know not what you speak. Zone scaling/revamp is the best thing they've done to quest leveling since the game launched 15 years ago.

[Jujudrood]

If you want slower, more difficult, combat, take off your heirlooms, sell all quest rewards, and level up with just the gear you find/buy from standard NPC vendors.
It's still painfully slow and you will find yourself close to death throughout the journey.
If you want to be done with it as quick as possible because you, like me, have quested the game to death, then throw those heirlooms on and gogogo.

This is a common misconception many have about the game.
Yes, it is "easier" in that classes are more well built today to handle multiple mobs and to kill swiftly, and the leveling process gives you the abilities you need to do this, especially when you overgear the world content because that's exactly what a full set of heirlooms and the quest rewards make you do; outgear it.
But you *can* make it more difficult, if you want to.

The thing is, Difficulty is largely subjective.
It can mean the mob hits harder and has more health, but that's more artificial.
It can mean you hit for less and have less health, but again, artificial.
We can easily see this in Classic.
It's not more difficult, just more inconvenient.
The difference is a) classes were shit, and b) you were vastly outgeared for most of the leveling process.
At level 20, any one of you probably had 1 or more pieces of gear that were white and level 10 or lower.
You were terribly equipped, poorly built, so yeah, killing a single bear took time and you had to eat/drink after.
do that in Retail, you will see it's not just an AOE YOLO-fest.

To me, true difficulty would be making all outdoor world mobs, leveling and max level, have "AI", where they use a toolkit to fight you (like Island Expeditions, but better).
If you hard-cast a pyroblast, they should run up and kick you to prevent getting melted, not just stand there flailing away with white-hits.
If you hit a CD, they should stun/gouge you to prevent you from getting full usage out of it.
They should use a kit to dispatch you, building and spending to inflict damage just like in PVP, causing you to react and play not just proactively but also reactively.
That, to me, would make the game more difficult, more dangerous, and I also guarantee it would make people ragequit in droves.

[Soon-TM]

It just shows that Creme de la Creme Classic players don't give rat's ass about leveling and want it done as fast as possible, because yes, it's just a boring chore and was that way forever.

If anything, them risking shit with exploits only further showcases that point.

Yes, la creme de la creme seem to be a bunch of nolifers that will do anything to do their thing, even if it involves cheating.

You 100% haven't leveled any toons recently so you know not what you speak. Zone scaling/revamp is the best thing they've done to quest leveling since the game launched 15 years ago.

Levelling a Priest in Classic and a KT shammy in retail atm, but thanks for your assumptions. Btw, I didn't mention anything about the new zone scaling, so much for reading comprehension

- - - Updated - - -

To me, true difficulty would be making all outdoor world mobs, leveling and max level, have "AI", where they use a toolkit to fight you (like Island Expeditions, but better).
If you hard-cast a pyroblast, they should run up and kick you to prevent getting melted, not just stand there flailing away with white-hits.
If you hit a CD, they should stun/gouge you to prevent you from getting full usage out of it.
They should use a kit to dispatch you, building and spending to inflict damage just like in PVP, causing you to react and play not just proactively but also reactively.
That, to me, would make the game more difficult, more dangerous, and I also guarantee it would make people ragequit in droves.

I like this.

[meleetoon]

Yes, la creme de la creme seem to be a bunch of nolifers that will do anything to do their thing, even if it involves cheating.



Levelling a Priest in Classic and a KT shammy in retail atm, but thanks for your assumptions. Btw, I didn't mention anything about the new zone scaling, so much for reading comprehension

- - - Updated - - -



I like this.

I know you didn't, that's why i mentioned it.
Pretty typical of the ilk here to ignore the good and scream about whatever minor inconvenience they see.

[Soon-TM]

I know you didn't, that's why i mentioned it.
Pretty typical of the ilk here to ignore the good and scream about whatever minor inconvenience they see.

Boo hoo, cry more. Keep assuming btw, you look to be a real psychic

[meleetoon]

Boo hoo, cry more. Keep assuming btw, you look to be a real psychic

Your actions speak more loudly than you think, but sure.

[Soon-TM]

Your actions speak more loudly than you think, but sure.

Yeah, 3 out of 4 posts trolling says a lot about you. Btw, ignored.

[meleetoon]

Yeah, 3 out of 4 posts trolling says a lot about you. Btw, ignored.

"BtW iGnOReD"

Quelle surprise.

[Merryck]

They should add a hardcore mode to leveling to make it more difficult but more rewarding.

[meleetoon]

If you want slower, more difficult, combat, take off your heirlooms, sell all quest rewards, and level up with just the gear you find/buy from standard NPC vendors.
It's still painfully slow and you will find yourself close to death throughout the journey.
If you want to be done with it as quick as possible because you, like me, have quested the game to death, then throw those heirlooms on and gogogo.

This is a common misconception many have about the game.
Yes, it is "easier" in that classes are more well built today to handle multiple mobs and to kill swiftly, and the leveling process gives you the abilities you need to do this, especially when you overgear the world content because that's exactly what a full set of heirlooms and the quest rewards make you do; outgear it.
But you *can* make it more difficult, if you want to.

The thing is, Difficulty is largely subjective.
It can mean the mob hits harder and has more health, but that's more artificial.
It can mean you hit for less and have less health, but again, artificial.
We can easily see this in Classic.
It's not more difficult, just more inconvenient.
The difference is a) classes were shit, and b) you were vastly outgeared for most of the leveling process.
At level 20, any one of you probably had 1 or more pieces of gear that were white and level 10 or lower.
You were terribly equipped, poorly built, so yeah, killing a single bear took time and you had to eat/drink after.
do that in Retail, you will see it's not just an AOE YOLO-fest.

To me, true difficulty would be making all outdoor world mobs, leveling and max level, have "AI", where they use a toolkit to fight you (like Island Expeditions, but better).
If you hard-cast a pyroblast, they should run up and kick you to prevent getting melted, not just stand there flailing away with white-hits.
If you hit a CD, they should stun/gouge you to prevent you from getting full usage out of it.
They should use a kit to dispatch you, building and spending to inflict damage just like in PVP, causing you to react and play not just proactively but also reactively.
That, to me, would make the game more difficult, more dangerous, and I also guarantee it would make people ragequit in droves.

you don't outgear anything since level scaling, a l20 vs a l40 piece is only like 2-4 mainstat/stam gain

[WorldofWorkcraft]

To me, true difficulty would be making all outdoor world mobs, leveling and max level, have "AI", where they use a toolkit to fight you (like Island Expeditions, but better).
If you hard-cast a pyroblast, they should run up and kick you to prevent getting melted, not just stand there flailing away with white-hits.
If you hit a CD, they should stun/gouge you to prevent you from getting full usage out of it.
They should use a kit to dispatch you, building and spending to inflict damage just like in PVP, causing you to react and play not just proactively but also reactively.
That, to me, would make the game more difficult, more dangerous, and I also guarantee it would make people ragequit in droves.

Islands were isolated and allowed that via a few enemies. We don't know the extent of their AI, but if they 'worked together' it's a lot of processing. Now tie that to someone trying to gather 20 mobs. How is their AI, having them react to you, one another, environment, etc.? Then you're at a point where you need to determine where the AI gets turned to easy or hard mode. It's...a lot.

They should really just hire some Starcraft semi-pros to control a zone's mobs. Then we wouldn't need AI, since we have micro-masters. I'd enjoy being in control of a zone. Dungeon defenders or w/e, but everywhere. :P

[asil]

If Holinka is "Lead Combat Designer", he can not just focus on making Classes more fun with more buttons again.

Every Combat is 2 sided. Part of the problem in Retail is how easy solo content is in general. You want to level up a new character, you still just pull 4-5 mobs and AoE them. You don't ever bother to self heal, and forget about taking a mana/"bandage" break...

Every single quest mob has to pose a bigger threat than today.

Holinka talked about bringing back Totems. Cool, I love totems. However, the totem system is designed around slow pacing. How will anyone questing in Retail concider it worth it to spend 3 GCDs on putting down 3 totems? The mob would have died in that time...

We have heard nothing about the general difficultiy of simple questing and world quests. It's a cakewalk, and no matter how many cool class buttons you have, if you can just kill mobs in 2 seconds, it's not gonna feel fun at all...

Being "Lead Combat Designer" also means you have to give a great balance on how OFTEN combat occurs. In todays "GOGOGO" M+ timed runs just always spamming buttons won't feel satisfying. You need downpoints to have uppoints. The "combat" to "out of combat" balance/pacing is way off in retail..

To me, it sounds like the Shadowlands expansion is very early in development. However, it worries me that they have not once talked about the general difficulty of regular solo content. There is no difficulty and people have to go out of their way to even feel challenged at all. Before they reach a point where they can feel challenged at all, they will already have gotten bored of the game.

Having to pull 1 mob at a time and eat/bandage constantly is not "hard" it's tedious and boring. I am completely baffled as to why people would ever want that back, it wasn't fun, it wasn't enjoyable.

If you want a challenge, do end game content. Interesting enough the people constantly complaining about world quests being too easy never have any relevant end game content experience.

This isn't even getting into the fact that the reason vanilla was like that is because classes were god awful.

[Loeko]

The debate will never end unless Blizzard changes directions. We have on one side RPG lovers that want fights and progression to feel rewarding and on the other side players who absolutely hate that and just want to get gear as fast as possible without ever feeling frustrated. Both categories are here to play different games, the first one an MMORPG and the second one instanced dungeons.

We can only guess which side has the majority, but the fact is that Blizzard makes the game entirely for the second category of players, the one that disagrees with the OP on this forum and that clearly does not want WoW to be anything more than repeatable instanced content.

Blizzard very likely did this choice based on the data they had and it is easy to imagine that this made them a lot of money with the huge arrivals of young players who embraced the absence of frustration and the easy power feeling, but does it still work? Obviously, this still satisfies an important number of people based on the comments we see on this forum but one can't help wondering if it is not also one of the main reasons why the game lost millions of players over the years?

Classic is the first piece of answer to that question as it shows that the first category of players is still here and is asking Blizzard for more. Classic being, because of it's nature, something temporary, I am curious to see if Blizzard plans to get back these players on retail or just lets them leave after they end Classic. Will Blizzard change back direction toward its original client base, the first category of players, or continue focusing on instant gratification and the absence of frustration to keep satisfying the second category of players, or maybe find a way to satisfy both?

It seems like Shadowlands might be another piece of answer and that should be interesting.

[bloodmoth13]

Why do you want questing to be done as quck as possible? Is it perhaps because it's not fun? Why is it not fun? Maybe because it's a cakewalk and "the real game" is waiting at max level? Don't you think that in itself is a problem?

I agree with this. I want levelling over and done with because the pacing is garbage and the content is pathetic on top of the rewards being worthless.
Reducing the number of zones to reach max level will go an incredibly long way to fix pacing, which can leave room to increase difficulty to compensate for shorter leveling, which brings in more challenges and makes it more fun.
Also, reducing zones means you dont face the whole nex xpac gear replacement thing every 10 levels.

[Doffen]

Yeah, I am glad I am not that into Shamans anymore. Yes, I am picky on the topic here, but as an example(and a very good one at that OP), it is representing my issues coming into the next expansion when it comes to the classes. Totems was the reason why I stopped playing the shaman so much, and seeing they come back and might matter more in Shadowlands, no thank you sir. It's just too slow, it breaks up the rest of the rotations and general gameplay, it's just annoying. Of course, they might not change how you put down the totems, if it is like now I guess it's allright.

But, I am sure some people love that kind of play as well. Totems are after all part of the shaman identity. For me it's more of a cool thing with the class, and not so awesome when it comes to combat. Those are the two things that can interfere too much with each other, and make gameplay clunky. OR awesome if done right.

[Will]

Why not a middle ground? In classic it's a bit slow and somewhat tedious. Miss dodge parry miss dodge and almost dead vs one mob. In BfA it's too faceroll, herp derp i can pull 25-30 mobs and aoe them down in seconds without losing 5% health.

So. A middle ground, please?

[MasterOfNone]

If Holinka is "Lead Combat Designer", he can not just focus on making Classes more fun with more buttons again.

Every Combat is 2 sided. Part of the problem in Retail is how easy solo content is in general. You want to level up a new character, you still just pull 4-5 mobs and AoE them. You don't ever bother to self heal, and forget about taking a mana/"bandage" break...

Every single quest mob has to pose a bigger threat than today.

Holinka talked about bringing back Totems. Cool, I love totems. However, the totem system is designed around slow pacing. How will anyone questing in Retail concider it worth it to spend 3 GCDs on putting down 3 totems? The mob would have died in that time...

We have heard nothing about the general difficultiy of simple questing and world quests. It's a cakewalk, and no matter how many cool class buttons you have, if you can just kill mobs in 2 seconds, it's not gonna feel fun at all...

Being "Lead Combat Designer" also means you have to give a great balance on how OFTEN combat occurs. In todays "GOGOGO" M+ timed runs just always spamming buttons won't feel satisfying. You need downpoints to have uppoints. The "combat" to "out of combat" balance/pacing is way off in retail..

To me, it sounds like the Shadowlands expansion is very early in development. However, it worries me that they have not once talked about the general difficulty of regular solo content. There is no difficulty and people have to go out of their way to even feel challenged at all. Before they reach a point where they can feel challenged at all, they will already have gotten bored of the game.

wrong. if you think people actually want to fight a mob for longer than a few seconds, then you have something else coming. esp at higher levels and better gear. peaople dont want the task of fighting 0/8 mobs for a world quest like every mob is a fucking mini boss. however, the mere fact that you brought this up is probably how blizzard does future design. there is probably some nerd somewhere taking notes on this one players post saying "this is what the consumers want!" wouldnt be surprised if its implemented in the next two years.....

[MoanaLisa]

Because nobody wants difficult solo content when you level.

These days, there's a lot more to the non-raiding, non-dungeon game than leveling. The OP is not wrong. Neither are you for that matter but one should not be dismissed for the other. Expansions go on for a while. Leveling is the least of it. Everything after initial leveling could be a bit spicier.

[Gasparde]

Some spells we'll be getting back will be neat. Like hunters getting Kill shot back, neat - it's not gonna make or break the class, it'S just neat. But I'm pretty sure that like at least 75% of the spells will be pointless clutter 'rp' garbage nobody will ever be using. Like, oh boy, I'm gonna be so glad when my Fire Mage is getting Frostbolt because that's sure I thing I'll be needing to make it in the open world. Can't fucking wait for my Outlaw Rogue to get poisons back because I'll feel so much more rogue-y. Let's not forget how much more I'll enjoy my Shaman once I'll get Searing totem back, gonna be insane.

It's mostly gonna be useless fluff I'm afraid. Sure, some people will be really happy when they're given back Eye of the Beast or fucking Curse of Weakness... but others will just not give a flying fuck about anything that's not directly affecting the combat flow of their spec. Again, Killing Shot is gonna be neat and all that... but it's not going to make me spec insanely fun again all of the sudden. Unpruning for the sake of unpruning is just as bad as pruning for the sake of pruning.