Migrants easily cut through Trump's wall with a $100 saw

[Freighter]

You're doing literally nothing to dispute the point that Republican attitudes towards immigration exist as a function of bias rather than as a function of policy, just so you're aware.

I care more for the political realities than some wishy washy dreams of utopia where everyone gets along. The political reality is that there is a strong opposition to illegals among republicans. Why that is does not concern me, I just know they'll never accept anything that would give them a path to citizenship. You on the other hand wants to pretend that this political reality doesn't exist and it's just some bad people? I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve by that.

[Malaky]

Once again, you keep throwing out words like "finite" and "endless" when the US has neither a shortage of consumer goods nor funds,

Resources are, by definition, finite. So that is correct.
And the "endless" was thrown out by Daemon, not me, to which I responded.

Get your reading comprehension straight before responding.

[Elegiac]

I care more for the political realities than some wishy washy dreams of utopia where everyone gets along. The political reality is that there is a strong opposition to illegals among republicans. Why that is does not concern me, I just know they'll never accept anything that would give them a path to citizenship. You on the other hand wants to pretend that this political reality doesn't exist and it's just some bad people? I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve by that.

I'm not sure exactly what kind of point you're trying to make by insisting that ideology doesn't matter while simultaneously admitting that I was correct in Republican opposition to illegal immigration being a function of ideological bias and not, in fact, based in any objective metric.

Ideology does matter because it is what motivates these policies in the first place. You're just being willfully obtuse.

[Freighter]

I'm not sure exactly what kind of point you're trying to make by insisting that ideology doesn't matter while simultaneously admitting that I was correct in Republican opposition to illegal immigration being a function of ideological bias and not, in fact, based in any objective metric.

Ideology does matter because it is what motivates these policies in the first place. You're just being willfully obtuse.

I don't care if it's based in bias or objective metric, they are against illegals and as such them getting a path to citizenship. To then think they would agree to it is just insanity. It's just like here with anti-discrimination bill, they knew the conservatives are against such protections for LGBT people but they still tried to push it and it failed due to the inclusion of that.

It's just stupid. You know they're not going to pass it due to such things and then you complain about how they don't want an immigration reform because they took issue with something like that, just like how politicians here went all They don't want anti-discrimination laws even though they accepted all other parts of it.

It's a case of political idealism rather than dealing with the political realities.

[Edge-]

I don't care if it's based in bias or objective metric, they are against illegals and as such them getting a path to citizenship. To then think they would agree to it is just insanity.

It passed the Senate with bipartisan support with 14 Republicans voting for it - https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...n=1&vote=00168

It was literally just House Republicans that killed it. There is no "insanity", only your incorrect opinions.

[Freighter]

It passed the Senate with bipartisan support with 14 Republicans voting for it - https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...n=1&vote=00168

It was literally just House Republicans that killed it. There is no "insanity", only your incorrect opinions.

So it didn't pass.

[Dextroden]

It passed the Senate with bipartisan support with 14 Republicans voting for it - https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...n=1&vote=00168

It was literally just House Republicans that killed it. There is no "insanity", only your incorrect opinions.

How did any Republicans vote Yes on it when they're all supposed to be white supremacists that hate brown people?

[Edge-]

So it didn't pass.

No, but you're ignoring key context as to why. Here's an explainer on how this imploded - https://www.propublica.org/article/w...reform-failure

It was literally just a handful of Tea Party Republicans that killed it, there was broader support.

[Elegiac]

I don't care if it's based in bias or objective metric, they are against illegals and as such them getting a path to citizenship. To then think they would agree to it is just insanity. It's just like here with anti-discrimination bill, they knew the conservatives are against such protections for LGBT people but they still tried to push it and it failed due to the inclusion of that.

It's just stupid. You know they're not going to pass it due to such things and then you complain about how they don't want an immigration reform because they took issue with something like that, just like how politicians here went all They don't want anti-discrimination laws even though they accepted all other parts of it.

It's a case of political idealism rather than dealing with the political realities.

You're literally just complaining that you have to make humanitarian concessions, here.

[Freighter]

No, but you're ignoring key context as to why. Here's an explainer on how this imploded - https://www.propublica.org/article/w...reform-failure

It was literally just a handful of Tea Party Republicans that killed it, there was broader support.

Reading that, it seems to me that the path to citizenship was a huge issue to them.

- - - Updated - - -

You're literally just complaining that you have to make humanitarian concessions, here.

I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

[Kaleredar]

Reading that, it seems to me that the path to citizenship was a huge issue to them.

That was the entirety of the democrat's investment in the matter.

You can't say "well we'll compromise, but in the compromise go ahead and take out what you want and just give us everything we want, or we'll kill it dead."

And if you're relying on some sort of "subsequent good will because of earlier acquiecense," then I can tell you the Republican party is not the party to pursue that with. They've become a thoroughly bad-faith party.

[Daelak]

Conservatives, unsurprisingly are completely wrong on their position of curbing immigration and wasting government resources on trying to deport residents in the US. It is arguably the most effective weapon against our adversaries and the strongest strategy to employ long term economic leverage with our trading partners. Draining away both the highly educated, highly specialized workers from China, Russia, and the EU, only helps our national security and economic position. Accepting and Streamlining unskilled workers, war and climate change migrants will eliminate any economic leverage countries and entire continents would theoretically put on us later in the 21st century. A residency/citizenship process to a 24 month period will make all of our adversaries in a permanent state of absolute disadvantage.

We should be leading the formation of an American union between the North, Central, and South American states while incentivizing Asian people to immigrate here. This will isolate China and Russia than any other Trump tweet, or Trump saber rattling tweet, or Trump wall tweet.

[Kaleredar]

Conservatives, unsurprisingly are completely wrong on their position of curbing immigration and wasting government resources on trying to deport residents in the US. It is arguably the most effective weapon against our adversaries and the strongest strategy to employ long term economic leverage with our trading partners. Draining away both the highly educated, highly specialized workers from China, Russia, and the EU, only helps our national security and economic position. Accepting and Streamlining unskilled workers, war and climate change migrants will eliminate any economic leverage countries and entire continents would theoretically put on us later in the 21st century. A residency/citizenship process to a 24 month period will make all of our adversaries in a permanent state of absolute disadvantage.

We should be leading the formation of an American union between the North, Central, and South American states while incentivizing Asian people to immigrate here. This will isolate China and Russia than any other Trump tweet, or Trump saber rattling tweet, or Trump wall tweet.

I agree quite wholeheartedly.

Many people who come to the United States to pursue higher education, and these are college students, mind you, not the "uneducated, unwashed masses" that conservatives try and portray immigrants as, come and get degrees but have to return to their country of origin because the immigration process simply takes too long or would be too inconvenient to their new careers.

In essence it's saying "Take what we taught you and all the investment we put into you back to some other country. All of that time you spent here, the friends and the connections you made? Yeah, sod off with that!"

Absolute lunacy.

One of the side effects of the USSR's crushing control was that it drove a lot of young and educated people out of the USSR and eastern bloc states to the United States and the rest of Europe, effectively creating a brain drain of the USSR. The US' backwards immigration system is promoting just that.

[Daelak]

I agree quite wholeheartedly.

Many people who come to the United States to pursue higher education, and these are college students, mind you, not the "uneducated, unwashed masses" that conservatives try and portray immigrants as, come and get degrees but have to return to their country of origin because the immigration process simply takes too long or would be too inconvenient to their new careers.

In essence it's saying "Take what we taught you and all the investment we put into you back to some other country. All of that time you spent here, the friends and the connections you made? Yeah, sod off with that!"

Absolute lunacy.

One of the side effects of the USSR's crushing control was that it drove a lot of young and educated people out of the USSR and eastern bloc states to the United States and the rest of Europe, effectively creating a brain drain of the USSR. The US' backwards immigration system is promoting just that.

It's even more damning when you realize that this is a fleeting strategy that the hegemonic power such as the US can only use until our adversaries reach parity, which is is occurring right now due to conservative ideology in the US shirking on their duty to lead the country by making long term decisions on renewable energy, climate change, protecting the general welfare (universal healthcare, education, workforce training), and all diplomacy, instead eating their seed corn and fucking over our vaunted position because their entire ideology is borne from white supremacist and segregationist rhetoric from the middle of the 20th century.

[Kaleredar]

It's even more damning when you realize that this is a fleeting strategy that the hegemonic power such as the US can only use until our adversaries reach parity, which is is occurring right now due to conservative ideology in the US shirking on their duty to lead the country by making long term decisions on renewable energy, climate change, protecting the general welfare (universal healthcare, education, workforce training), and all diplomacy, instead eating their seed corn and fucking over our vaunted position because their entire ideology is borne from white supremacist and segregationist rhetoric from the middle of the 20th century.

Innovation and the environment and human capital equipped to pursue it is what the United States has always had over its rivals. They beat the Nazis to the atom bomb due, in no small part, to the contributions of scientists that were driven from Nazi Germany. They beat the Soviets because of the aforementioned flight of young and educated soviets from their oppressive governments.

The republicans gutting education, (attacking public schools and teachers, labeling colleges as bastions of "liberal quackery,") demonizing the scientific community (climate change denial) and ostracizing and dissuading immigrants are extremely damaging to the US maintaining the position of power it must retain over China and Russia.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Resources are, by definition, finite. So that is correct.
And the "endless" was thrown out by Daemon, not me, to which I responded.

Get your reading comprehension straight before responding.

This isn’t how it works. Immigrants coming in don’t take up resources and give nothing back they work and add more to the pool which then leads to economic gain for the country allowing it to do better on the global scale and keep doing better. Until we get to the stage we’re we are having global resource wars like fall out there won’t be any finite end and if America hasn’t used those resources to advert something like that then every one is screwed any way so it doesn’t matter.

As my thanos reference pointed to we are never going to get to a point where we are out of resources because of immigration because said immigration adds back into the economy and leads to expansion making said finite resources particularly infinite.

[Malaky]

This isn’t how it works. Immigrants coming in don’t take up resources and give nothing back they work and add more to the pool which then leads to economic gain for the country allowing it to do better

What they offer is not the same as what is demanded. That's the point. They offer massive amounts of one while little of the other, which leads to inflation of one and scarcity in the other.

As my thanos reference pointed to we are never going to get to a point where we are out of resources because of immigration because said immigration adds back into the economy and leads to expansion making said finite resources particularly infinite.

This would only be true if what they added back into the economy was amongst all spectrums of need. It is not.

Resources can never be infinite. That's why they're resources.

[zenkai]

Follow the thread of discussion. It changed a bit as time went on, into broader terms.

I'm not "arguing dishonestly", you're attacking a straw man, rather than my argument.

Endus I'm not a fool and don't buy into your bullshit argument. I did not change at all, in no way have I seen people discussing people with expired visa's.

EVEN after I clarified my stance on the subject, not only did you not discuss the difference but you double downed and distracted the argument instead of refocusing on the topic of unskilled labor that crosses the border illegally and robs low educated Americans from these jobs.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What they offer is not the same as what is demanded. That's the point. They offer massive amounts of one while little of the other, which leads to inflation of one and scarcity in the other.



This would only be true if what they added back into the economy was amongst all spectrums of need. It is not.

Resources can never be infinite. That's why they're resources.

Of course what they offer is in demand if it wasn’t they wouldn’t be “taking Americans jobs”, with the ability to expand the demand grows ever greater and America isn’t at and shouldn’t ever be at a point where it can’t expand and if it ever then humanity as a whole can’t expand so it’s a mute point.

And yes there not infinite that’s why I said practically infinite, with the means to expand the finite resources we have now grow and grow with the capability to grown further and further to the point that they wont realistically come to an end before the end of country’s or the human race in general.

That or well never leave the planet and cook alive due to global warming like a bunch of idiots.

[Endus]

Endus I'm not a fool and don't buy into your bullshit argument. I did not change at all, in no way have I seen people discussing people with expired visa's.

EVEN after I clarified my stance on the subject, not only did you not discuss the difference but you double downed and distracted the argument instead of refocusing on the topic of unskilled labor that crosses the border illegally and robs low educated Americans from these jobs.

Because that "topic" is a right-wing meme that doesn't reflect the reality of illegal immigration. Sorry that I'm not going to feed partisan talking points that have little basis in fact.

As cited already, illegal immigration has only a marginal downward pressure on wages for Americans without a high school education. In most other respects, it's a net gain, and even in that one narrow aspect, there are more effective solutions than wasting billions of dollars on a wall that's doomed to inevitably be useless.