Lich King losing was bullshit

[Kakylukia]

Sylvanas went from losing a fight against old man Genn Greymane to uber goddess of death that can go toe to toe with the Lich King within the span of one expansion and to make things worse all of that """character development""" happened off-screen with absolutely no indication that she did anything to gain some sort of power-up.

It's incredibly lazy storytelling and a complete asspull in terms of lore.

Okey so...someone like you stating that something is incredibly lazy storytelling while not making any difference between Lich King Bolvar and Lich King Arthas sounds as legit as expecting Jesus Christ and Scooby-Doo coming to your birthday party.

Arthas had his character developed off-screen back in Warcraft III and expansion Warcraft III The Frozen Throne, and Sylvannas character development goes as far but hey! don't be mistaken! Bolvar who had his character developed, by your logic, in one expansion Wrath of the Lich King, became a Lich King who is as strong as Arthas was who carried Frostmourne and the Crown, but Sylvannas just pop-up out of no where because it is lazy storytelling and complete asspull in terms of lore.

Lore is not WoW cinematic of 3 minutes length.

[Newname1234567890]

But is Bolvar weaker than Saurfang? Least Saurfang landed a blow...

No because 8.3 happens between the two fights and she gets stonger as more people die....so not exactly hard to figure out the difference

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

By the way... you guys realize Bolvar knew about Sylvanas wanting to attack him... and all he did was rising a bunch of puny skeletons?

[iamthedevil]

By the way... you guys realize Bolvar knew about Sylvanas wanting to attack him... and all he did was rising a bunch of puny skeletons?

The real question is where are all the DKs he was rezzing? I'm guessing it has something to do with Nathanos. Also, why were the undead afraid of Sylvanas? They let her waltz right up to the throne.

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He had red dragons massacred to find a mount, assaulted killed and enslaved dead paladins, killed those who wandered into icecrown and enslaved them into undeath. The guy is not good, he is a poster boy of lawful evil.

If someone willingly decided to walk into ICC, it's kinda their own fault for everything past then.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

The real question is where are all the DKs he was rezzing? I'm guessing it has something to do with Nathanos. Also, why were the undead afraid of Sylvanas? They let her waltz right up to the throne.

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If someone willingly decided to walk into ICC, it's kinda their own fault for everything past then.

That doesn't make up for the fact in the whole Legion campaign he's been pretty much undermining his allies rather than killing demons. Betraying the paladins for reasons, slaughtering the red dragonflight, and not killing one single demon in the whole deal unlike any other order hall...

The guy was an utter asshole and I'm glad Sylvanas gives him a proper ass whomping, he badly deserved it. Specially considering he could not even muster dks or relevant undead at his own defense the one time he should have been playing dirty.

[Nerovar]

Okey so...someone like you stating that something is incredibly lazy storytelling while not making any difference between Lich King Bolvar and Lich King Arthas sounds as legit as expecting Jesus Christ and Scooby-Doo coming to your birthday party.

Arthas had his character developed off-screen back in Warcraft III and expansion Warcraft III The Frozen Throne, and Sylvannas character development goes as far but hey! don't be mistaken! Bolvar who had his character developed, by your logic, in one expansion Wrath of the Lich King, became a Lich King who is as strong as Arthas was who carried Frostmourne and the Crown, but Sylvannas just pop-up out of no where because it is lazy storytelling and complete asspull in terms of lore.

Lore is not WoW cinematic of 3 minutes length.

Wow, that's just so silly I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, I never mentioned Arthas or Bolvar in my original post because the distinction is not really important for the point I was making. Sure, Arthas a probably stronger than Bolvar but that's not relevant since we're still talking about the Lich King.

How was Arthas character developed off-screen? We literally saw him do everything he did - fighting the plague, culling of Stratholme, obtaining Frostmourne and killing Mal'ganis, his father etc. and finally becoming the Lich King.
Bolvar was the regent of Stormwind for more than one expansion and while his character wasn't really developed much, the Crown of Domination and the Lich King were well-established at the end of WotLK. It doesn't matter that Bolvar isn't the most fleshed-out character because he became the Lich King who is a pretty big character (and we all know how he got his powers)
Sure, Sylvanas' character reaches back into WC3 and she had a pretty fair share of character development but (and that's the big point) she was never developed as a particularly powerful character. That's the difference. We know the Lich King is powerful. It is established in the lore. Sylvanas is (or was) just a very intelligent (not even particularly powerful) banshee who's good with the bow.
The only thing that made her powerfull is an off-screen pact that happened at the end of WotLK made with a being that didn't exist back then. That's the lazy part.

[Combatbutler]

If someone willingly decided to walk into ICC, it's kinda their own fault for everything past then.

He could have just killed them, but nope the guy enslaves them on top. Bolvar has become nasty piece of work

[Timester]

He had red dragons massacred to find a mount, assaulted killed and enslaved dead paladins, killed those who wandered into icecrown and enslaved them into undeath. The guy is not good, he is a poster boy of lawful evil.

So, a neutral character?

[Combatbutler]

So, a neutral character?

Isn't neutral if you enslave others for pretty much your own amusement.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That doesn't make up for the fact in the whole Legion campaign he's been pretty much undermining his allies rather than killing demons. Betraying the paladins for reasons, slaughtering the red dragonflight, and not killing one single demon in the whole deal unlike any other order hall...

The guy was an utter asshole and I'm glad Sylvanas gives him a proper ass whomping, he badly deserved it. Specially considering he could not even muster dks or relevant undead at his own defense the one time he should have been playing dirty.

The red dragons weren’t allies against the legion I don’t think any ever show up they are just chilling. He also doesn’t kill any demons because he has the dk order hall so it instead of him unleashing the scourge on the legion.

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Wow, that's just so silly I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, I never mentioned Arthas or Bolvar in my original post because the distinction is not really important for the point I was making. Sure, Arthas a probably stronger than Bolvar but that's not relevant since we're still talking about the Lich King.

How was Arthas character developed off-screen? We literally saw him do everything he did - fighting the plague, culling of Stratholme, obtaining Frostmourne and killing Mal'ganis, his father etc. and finally becoming the Lich King.
Bolvar was the regent of Stormwind for more than one expansion and while his character wasn't really developed much, the Crown of Domination and the Lich King were well-established at the end of WotLK. It doesn't matter that Bolvar isn't the most fleshed-out character because he became the Lich King who is a pretty big character (and we all know how he got his powers)
Sure, Sylvanas' character reaches back into WC3 and she had a pretty fair share of character development but (and that's the big point) she was never developed as a particularly powerful character. That's the difference. We know the Lich King is powerful. It is established in the lore. Sylvanas is (or was) just a very intelligent (not even particularly powerful) banshee who's good with the bow.
The only thing that made her powerfull is an off-screen pact that happened at the end of WotLK made with a being that didn't exist back then. That's the lazy part.

I mean sure you can say she’s not very powerful or that we never see her power up if you ignore that she was one of the first to break away from the power of the lichking, she was able to stand her own against arthas who is leaps and bounds above bolvar power wise, she is actively raising undead and experimenting with the valkir in cata, she gains the able to raise elf’s in mop even though she could only raise humans in cata, she’s able to one shot internals and then made a pack with helya in legion, she’s able to go two to two with malf in bfa and has been shown to be making more deals with all kinds of fish and old gods.

But if you ignore all of that you just have some one who’s kinda smart but not powerful at all and who has had all of there power gain shown off screen.

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He could have just killed them, but nope the guy enslaves them on top. Bolvar has become nasty piece of work

I don’t remember does he ever actually say he does it? It could very well be undead under his command just working on auto pilot and raising people they kill.

[Combatbutler]

I don’t remember does he ever actually say he does it? It could very well be undead under his command just working on auto pilot and raising people they kill.

He pretty much tells you when you get there to retrieve artifacts, if you fail that he will raise you into his service.

[Xilurm]

We do, though. Ion laid it out in the panel and, in retrospect, it explains a lot. Sylvanas gets her power from the Jailer, whom she's made a pact with. All souls are being directed to the Jailer's realm, the Maw, and that was just turbocharged by the heavy losses on both sides in the War against the Legion and the Fourth War. We just don't know all the specifics. But, there's a lot we can speculate on.

Which reminds me of how Arthas was gaining more power. The more souls the Lich King controls, the more powerful he is. Bolvar wasn't going around capturing souls that's for certain.

Meanwhile all the souls were going into the Maw in the past few years, making the Jailer more powerful with each soul just like it happened with Arthas. And the Jailer is giving Sylvanas power so yeah, it makes sense why she could overpower Bolvar. He ain't that strong at all.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He pretty much tells you when you get there to retrieve artifacts, if you fail that he will raise you into his service.

Ah then ya it’s pretty dickish.

[ghays]

This is so obvious to me as well but seems overlooked by most.

I’m not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Sykvanas is now far more powerful than she’s ever been before, and clearly prepare for this confrontation. Bolvar did not.

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He had red dragons massacred to find a mount, assaulted killed and enslaved dead paladins, killed those who wandered into icecrown and enslaved them into undeath. The guy is not good, he is a poster boy of lawful evil.

Some people like him because he has a lot of charisma points.

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The red dragons weren’t allies against the legion I don’t think any ever show up they are just chilling. He also doesn’t kill any demons because he has the dk order hall so it instead of him unleashing the scourge on the legion.

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I mean sure you can say she’s not very powerful or that we never see her power up if you ignore that she was one of the first to break away from the power of the lichking, she was able to stand her own against arthas who is leaps and bounds above bolvar power wise, she is actively raising undead and experimenting with the valkir in cata, she gains the able to raise elf’s in mop even though she could only raise humans in cata, she’s able to one shot internals and then made a pack with helya in legion, she’s able to go two to two with malf in bfa and has been shown to be making more deals with all kinds of fish and old gods.

But if you ignore all of that you just have some one who’s kinda smart but not powerful at all and who has had all of there power gain shown off screen.

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I don’t remember does he ever actually say he does it? It could very well be undead under his command just working on auto pilot and raising people they kill.

Sylvanas leveled up and got better gear. So she wins

[Combatbutler]

Some people like him because he has a lot of charisma points.

Oh people can like him, but saying the guy isn't evil simply isn't true.

[ghays]

Maybe on Koltira?

If she’s using bondage powers, it should be in Jaina.

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Oh people can like him, but saying the guy isn't evil simply isn't true.

He does sound like a big meanie.

[PopVanish]

And now.... since Bolvar was broken it appears that Death Knights* have lost the sparkle in their eyes on PTR.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=296232/...sions-of-nzoth





* (and Elfs)

[Akibaboy]

Eh... Bolvar lost the fight. The Lich King we all know and love lost in 2009. Just giving him the title of The Lich King does not make him the man whose journey to that title we experienced in Warcraft 3, and who we struggled against in one of the best expansions of WoW's history. Bolvar is great, and I'm looking forward to spending more time aiding him going forward, but he's hardly earned any reason for fandom with his history of a) standing around next to a black dragon and not realizing it, b) dying to plague before we get to see him fight, and c) wearing a helm and ordering DKs to do some messed up shit.

Beyond that, I'd also say it's more like the Jailer or w/e it is won the fight because without the crazy empowered arrows and chains (with magic that not even the world's best magisters recognize after Saurfang's Mak'gora), and that's considerably less bullshit if this entity is death itself. Sylvanas used some amount of cunning in the fight, but the majority of her advantage came from the use of powers no one had witnessed or knew how to counter.

[Nerovar]

The red dragons weren’t allies against the legion I don’t think any ever show up they are just chilling. He also doesn’t kill any demons because he has the dk order hall so it instead of him unleashing the scourge on the legion.

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I mean sure you can say she’s not very powerful or that we never see her power up if you ignore that she was one of the first to break away from the power of the lichking, she was able to stand her own against arthas who is leaps and bounds above bolvar power wise, she is actively raising undead and experimenting with the valkir in cata, she gains the able to raise elf’s in mop even though she could only raise humans in cata, she’s able to one shot internals and then made a pack with helya in legion, she’s able to go two to two with malf in bfa and has been shown to be making more deals with all kinds of fish and old gods.

But if you ignore all of that you just have some one who’s kinda smart but not powerful at all and who has had all of there power gain shown off screen.

Man, I really want to know from where you people get the "Arthas is much stronger than Bolvar" thing. Sure, Arthas had Frostmourne which is a pretty powerful sword but we don't really have any information on whether or not one of them is stronger than the other. The moves Bolvar pulled off in the cinematic were pretty impressive after all.

Also Sylvanas almost lost a fight against Genn who's basically just an old Worgen with no special powers whatsoever in Legion. Notice something?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Man, I really want to know from where you people get the "Arthas is much stronger than Bolvar" thing. Sure, Arthas had Frostmourne which is a pretty powerful sword but we don't really have any information on whether or not one of them is stronger than the other. The moves Bolvar pulled off in the cinematic were pretty impressive after all.

Also Sylvanas almost lost a fight against Genn who's basically just an old Worgen with no special powers whatsoever in Legion. Notice something?

the lich king grow in power the move souls they have under there command. arthas had a crap ton more souls then bovlar and more powerful souls at that. bolvar was weak enough that the stronger undead were able to just leave the helms command and he didn't have all the souls set free by frostmourn breaking.

sylvanas also never came close to losing a fight against genn your just making stuff up.