Seems Velonara picks to stay with horde.

[Arrashi]

Not in WoW. Plus each of those scenarios should be taken and dissected separately since they all happen under different circumstances and we deal different amount of damage. For example killing blood trolls because they wanted to summon G’uun and turn entire Zandalar into corrupted, moldy wasteland might count as genocide but in that situation enemy is nearly hiveminded and acts against all life, attempting a genocide. While in case of Sethrak we helped un-corrupted ones against those who chose worshipping Old God spawn over Sethralis and nearly doomed entire island. Night elfs were not planning on doing anything like that, were capable of parlay and compromise (which they did before btw) and gave up officially and then they were murdered. If you dont see a difference then you should really visit a doctor, you might be retarded and disabled.

Man, im dissapointed in you. I expected you to last much longer.

OT: Not really. You either consider genocide to be solution or not. We have absolutely no issues murdering non-faction races en-masse, and yet it turns out to be something terrible when faction alliance race is the target. Nelves had beef with horde for years, and horde just decided to solve that problem like they solved all others.

I mean we murder low wage workers of venture Co (and even war reporters) and its a-ok so why would nelves be diffrent.

Infracted.

[GreenJesus]

"They are all nomads"
"They live on a single island nation with the Zandalari Empire"

They're as much a formal faction as the Steamweedle Goblins are.

Steamweedle is basically a cartel with a head honcho that everyone falls behind. Vulpera just wander around selling their wares in their wagons. No idea how they were even able to give them classes for combat.

[VladlTutushkin]

Man, im dissapointed in you. I expected you to last much longer.

OT: Not really. You either consider genocide to be solution or not. We have absolutely no issues murdering non-faction races en-masse, and yet it turns out to be something terrible when faction alliance race is the target. Nelves had beef with horde for years, and horde just decided to solve that problem like they solved all others.

Because you deliberately ignoring the main point of it? Let me out it this way. There is a difference between killing a terminally ill patient , a zombie, psychotic mandmam attacking you with a knife and killing a bystander, a cop trying to arrest you or a patient with simple cold or pneumonia. All cases are killing. Are they equal? No.

[Arrashi]

Because you deliberately ignoring the main point of it? Let me out it this way. There is a difference between killing a terminally ill patient , a zombie, psychotic mandmam attacking you with a knife and killing a bystander, a cop trying to arrest you or a patient with simple cold or pneumonia. All cases are killing. Are they equal? No.

But we are killing "evil" workers, reporters, carrot stealers, interns all the time. Just imagine that bystander was murderer, cop was corrupted and patient was actually patient zero. And voila.

[Ersula]

Steamweedle is basically a cartel with a head honcho that everyone falls behind. Vulpera just wander around selling their wares in their wagons. No idea how they were even able to give them classes for combat.

They clearly have a community. Nomadic doesn't mean anarchistic. And the desert is a harsh place, surely they learn survival skills. Like, it is easy to imply they learned magic from the Faithless

[VladlTutushkin]

But we are killing "evil" workers, reporters, carrot stealers, interns all the time. Just imagine that bystander was murderer, cop was corrupted and patient was actually patient zero. And voila.

Not when we have solid evidence of them being/not being as you described. If we KNOW that patient had simple pneumonia, cop was decent and bystander was a clerk in an office and not a murderer OR we know for sure that they were bad enough to warrant killing that puts thing into perspective. We KNOW that blood trolls were not only purely evil but also cruel enough to spread that evil until it consumed whole landmass and maybe beyond it too. Also we KNOW that night elfs had no plans attacking the Horde until Horde mobilized their army. And we also know that they gave up in the end, abandoning resistance (until they got genocided and had no choice but to fight back.)

[GreenJesus]

They clearly have a community. Nomadic doesn't mean anarchistic. And the desert is a harsh place, surely they learn survival skills. Like, it is easy to imply they learned magic from the Faithless

Did we ever actually see Vulpera in combat? I couldn't tell what was filler and what wasnt in voldun so I kind of tuned out.

[Arrashi]

Not when we have solid evidence of them being/not being as you described. If we KNOW that patient had simple pneumonia, cop was decent and bystander was a clerk in an office and not a murderer OR we know for sure that they were bad enough to warrant killing that puts thing into perspective. We KNOW that blood trolls were not only purely evil but also cruel enough to spread that evil until it consumed whole landmass and maybe beyond it too. Also we KNOW that night elfs had no plans attacking the Horde until Horde mobilized their army. And we also know that they gave up in the end, abandoning resistance (until they got genocided and had no choice but to fight back.)

First and foremost you are arguing as if characters in universe always had all the info required to tell the diffrence (which they not, given that for vast majority of time we just accept the quest without even asking questions - see what saurfang did).

On top of that you are just running in circles arguing that genocide is "always on us, but never by us".

[Ersula]

Did we ever actually see Vulpera in combat? I couldn't tell what was filler and what wasnt in voldun so I kind of tuned out.

It's the first fucking quest in Vol'dun. Meera frees us from slavery. Have you played *any* of this game before?

[VladlTutushkin]

First and foremost you are arguing as if characters in universe always had all the info required to tell the diffrence (which they not, given that for vast majority of time we just accept the quest without even asking questions - see what saurfang did).

On top of that you are just running in circles arguing that genocide is "always on us, but never by us".

No, i am arguing that each situation is different and that you do not seem to understand difference between self defense and murder in cold blood.

[Arrashi]

No, i am arguing that each situation is different and that you do not seem to understand difference between self defense and murder in cold blood.

I don't think that this applies to genocides. The entire idea of "we wiped out 80% or race in self defense"(of azerite that was rightfully ours it just happened to be on their island) is kinda laughable

[Thage]

"They are all nomads"
"They live on a single island nation with the Zandalari Empire"

They're as much a formal faction as the Steamweedle Goblins are.

Sort of. The various goblin cartels have a visible power structure, it's just heavily-corporatized and focused around mercantile endeavors, with an election system not dissimilar to that of the gnomes' in that they vote for the best inventor to be Trade Prince/Princess; the main difference is goblin politics involves sabotage, greased palms, and outright violence whereas gnomish elections tend to be far more honest.

Vulpera, on the other hand, have no visible governmental system. They're very communal nomads, albeit confined to one zone. Part of this is just the vulpera being vulpera, but another, larger part of it is their status as escaped slaves in a fight for survival. They're sort of like the pandaren, who don't really have a solid governmental structure beyond major settlements having a mayor to run the joint and the Shado-Pan as a specialized defense force, but the pandaren of both the mainland and the Wandering Isle also enjoyed an extremely peaceful existence, barring hozen getting fresh on the Isle and things the Shado-Pan handled on the mainland, so they never really needed a consolidated, centralized government--thus they just kinda go with the flow and let Ji and Aysa speak for them at gatherings as their representative.

[Yoshingo]

It's the first fucking quest in Vol'dun. Meera frees us from slavery. Have you played *any* of this game before?

There's also an entire quest chain about going to stop Emperor Korthek where Nisha and the other Vulpera are busy, you know, attacking the entire Sethrak army while we try to stop the Emperor.

[Arrashi]

Sort of. The various goblin cartels have a visible power structure, it's just heavily-corporatized and focused around mercantile endeavors, with an election system not dissimilar to that of the gnomes' in that they vote for the best inventor to be Trade Prince/Princess; the main difference is goblin politics involves sabotage, greased palms, and outright violence whereas gnomish elections tend to be far more honest.

Vulpera, on the other hand, have no visible governmental system. They're very communal nomads, albeit confined to one zone. Part of this is just the vulpera being vulpera, but another, larger part of it is their status as escaped slaves in a fight for survival. They're sort of like the pandaren, who don't really have a solid governmental structure beyond major settlements having a mayor to run the joint and the Shado-Pan as a specialized defense force, but the pandaren of both the mainland and the Wandering Isle also enjoyed an extremely peaceful existence, barring hozen getting fresh on the Isle and things the Shado-Pan handled on the mainland, so they never really needed a consolidated, centralized government--thus they just kinda go with the flow and let Ji and Aysa speak for them at gatherings as their representative.

I always assumed that kiro and nisha were their leaders given the fact that not only were their clearly leaders of rebelion but also represented vulpera during rastakhan funeral and talanji coronation.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't think that this applies to genocides. The entire idea of "we wiped out 80% or race in self defense"(of azerite that was rightfully ours it just happened to be on their island) is kinda laughable

It isnt in fantasy settings where things like “mind controlling tentacled fucks” , “corruption” or “they are just so evil because they are spawn of demons/old ones/ur mom” causes those races to relentlessly attack until they die. Take blood trolls for example - they would NEVER stop. Nothing would make them stop. Same goes with Qyraj (who are also sentient, even if barely) and other similar races. Unlike them night elfs would most definitely stop (as they did) when faced with overwhelming odds and then surrender.

[Arrashi]

It isnt in fantasy settings where things like “mind controlling tentacled fucks” , “corruption” or “they are just so evil because they are spawn of demons/old ones/ur mom” causes those races to relentlessly attack until they die. Take blood trolls for example - they would NEVER stop. Nothing would make them stop. Same goes with Qyraj (who are also sentient, even if barely) and other similar races. Unlike them night elfs would most definitely stop (as they did) when faced with overwhelming odds and then surrender.

And same goes for amani, sand trolls, virmen, venture co, etc etc etc. The conflict with nelves was ongoing since the first contact and it was shown numerous times that no matter what attempt on peace was made the war would reignite. They would never stop.

[TickTickTick]

The Alliance has always been portrayed as having a lot of trouble accepting Forsaken. Even the BfA pre-expansion book made that very clear. Do you really think the decimated Night Elven population would welcome these abominations to Elune, after what Sylvanas did? They aren't known for their tolerance.

They didnt have a problem accepting Death Knights or Demon Hunters. Well, maybe they had during first moments, but a single word of the High King silenced their disgust.
There's very little difference between DKs and Forsaken anyway.

[Topornic]

Would she not have a different dialogue for loyalists then?

The Loyalists never knew the full plan. Dark Rangers and Nathanos more often than not knew more. Velonara could be posing.

[VladlTutushkin]

And same goes for amani, sand trolls, virmen, venture co, etc etc etc. The conflict with nelves was ongoing since the first contact and it was shown numerous times that no matter what attempt on peace was made the war would reignite. They would never stop.

They actually did as a matter of fact. And ceded land to the Horde before. Like after SoO. All hostilities with them later were Horde’s fault.

[Topornic]

If you're someone who accepted the eye, you were told by them "For the Dark Lady. Always..." in whisper as you walked by.

The eye gift of N'zoth was not connected at all with Loyalist storyline.