Seems Velonara picks to stay with horde.

[Arrashi]

They actually did as a matter of fact. And ceded land to the Horde before. Like after SoO. All hostilities with them later were Horde’s fault.

It was just preemptive strike, a tactic that alliance themself consider completely valid given battle for dazal'or.

[VladlTutushkin]

It was just preemptive strike, a tactic that alliance themself consider completely valid given battle for dazal'or.

A preemptive strike ending in a fiery genocide against a fully de-militarized city housing most of civilians population of a race AFTER a capitulation.
While in DA Alliance killed a Llama King and his guards (and Loa Priests but they are the same as military paladins).

[Arrashi]

A preemptive strike ending in a fiery genocide against a fully de-militarized city housing most of civilians population of a race AFTER a capitulation.
While in DA Alliance killed a Llama King and his guards (and Loa Priests but they are the same as military paladins).

And all the mariners. And all the guards. And lots of by standers. Unless you believe that alliance can attack capital city without civilians getting killed.

[Biotec]

She's just making the smart choice.

I mean really, she just ticked off the immortal demigods who slew Kiljaeden, Archimonde, the Lich King, several old gods, Deathwing and all kinds of other horrible world ending monsters. Sylv was always going to be their next target, and who honestly expects the queen of constant failure to be the one outlier to defeat them? Better to jump ship now and live rather than to die in the Shadowlands and maybe go to super hell.

[VladlTutushkin]

And all the mariners. And all the guards. And lots of by standers. Unless you believe that alliance can attack capital city without civilians getting killed.

Not deliberately. Standing orders from Anduin were to spare civilians as long as they dont attack first. Sylvanas clearly ordered to kill everybody on a tree despite all above mentioned surrender and no troops left to defend it from the Horde.

[Arrashi]

Not deliberately. Standing orders from Anduin were to spare civilians as long as they dont attack first. Sylvanas clearly ordered to kill everybody on a tree despite all above mentioned surrender and no troops left to defend it from the Horde.

Oh my god are you for real? You attack a capital city and you expect what? That they will let you throught? Well didn't work with rastakhan (tho it was completely his fault because he resisted).

Also, the troops defending teldrassil didn't really surrender they were mostly obliterated, and yet miss elf still decided to talk shit with generic "you will never win" speech. Also she asked to burn the tree, not to kill everyone. So maybe just as alliance hoped that BoD will end up bloodless, sylvie hoped that nelves have good fire alarm and evacuation system.

[Aucald]

Let's drop this entirely off-topic argument about what is or isn't a genocide and pivot back to the original topic at hand.

[MrSaggins]

The cunning ones kneel before six masters, but serve only one.

[GreenJesus]

It's the first fucking quest in Vol'dun. Meera frees us from slavery. Have you played *any* of this game before?

I only leveled one character in BFA and I was in a group trying to power level. Voldun was just a huge desert that seemed like filler. Just because I didnt pay attention to a filler zone that had almost no bearing on the overall shitty BFA story doesnt mean I haven't played the game at all. Well.. I did quit in April.

[Lochton]

lol she called them all nothing publicly.

Why is it that people will insist that there's no mind control going on but then people get upset when Forsaken act against Sylvanas and almost get offended on her behalf over it. Either you want them to all just act in lockstep with Sylvanas as if they are mind controlled, or allow characters who have been slighted by her to not just keep continuing to support her.

She literally insults the Horde, including her own people, publicly, out in the open, right to their faces. And then flees, leaving whatever potential repercussions they could have faced, alone. It would have been completely unnatural if all the Forsaken suddenly just kept supporting her. She made absolutely no effort to try and get the people she pretends to care about out of potential harm's way.

There was none of it in my comment of being upset. Still, loyalists abandoned are nothing compared to Dark Rangers abandoned, of course the Rangers are going to feel scorn.

[Zuben]

Oh god no, what have they done to Belmont? Is he spouting this bullshit too?

Haven't seen anything from him post-Battle for Darkshore, but I wager he's still with the Forsaken. Sylvanas abandoned them, so it's best to just get on with life without her.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

She chose the wrong side.

[united]

Oh god no, what have they done to Belmont? Is he spouting this bullshit too?

Yeah, I don't mind characters like Velonara choosing the Horde. It makes sense and tbh she never really seemed totally happy about being raised anyway. But Belmont is a dark lady fanatic. He should keep his loyalty.

[Seradi]

Haven't seen anything from him post-Battle for Darkshore, but I wager he's still with the Forsaken. Sylvanas abandoned them, so it's best to just get on with life without her.

I mean as a Forsaken if my options are to remain with Sylvanas, as the dialogue here indicates many do, or follow Voss/Calia/the Horde I'd stick it out with Sylvanas. Or just do what some of the other Loyalists are doing and lie about my loyalties until everything becomes clear. Is it really abandonment if she's still got Forsaken with her?

[derpkitteh]

What is your side? Alliance puppet or Alliance? Because there is no other side...

the side that was proven right by the intro cinematic of shadowlands.

[korijenkins]

The Alliance has always been portrayed as having a lot of trouble accepting Forsaken. Even the BfA pre-expansion book made that very clear. Do you really think the decimated Night Elven population would welcome these abominations to Elune, after what Sylvanas did? They aren't known for their tolerance.

As for the Dark Rangers. They may have been favored of Sylvanas, but they do have free will. It's not insane that there are plenty that chose the Forsaken over Sylvanas after being told they were nothing to her. It's a hard choice for sure. But it's not like it's an unlikely choice. The options are going on the run and being hunted by a world that wants to kill you, for following someone that hasn't been truthful. Or being able to continue your normal life with your people. I'm sure many of Hitler's most trusted and loyal servants would have denounced him with Germany's defeat, if full amnesty and a return to their normal lives would have been on the table. Even if it was known that he actually flew off to Argentina.

Pretty much nonsense given that Death Knights are part of both factions.

[Yarathir]

It's funny when the ingame Sylvanas fanboys are more aware and dignified than the real life ones.

Infracted.

[Thage]

I always assumed that kiro and nisha were their leaders given the fact that not only were their clearly leaders of rebelion but also represented vulpera during rastakhan funeral and talanji coronation.

They're the "leaders" insofar as they organized the revolts and whatnot in their guerilla war on the sethrak, but they're not leaders insofar as an official system of leadership goes. They're more like Ji and Aysa, Lillian, and Eitrigg in that they're there to make sure the vulpera have a presence/voice at the table. Now that they're free, the Horde's got their backs in keeping them free, and they've got long-term prospects, if Blizzard dedicated any amount of time to actual worldbuilding after the X.0 patches, they'd start getting down to the brass tacks of how they want to organize, whether that means remaining communal with a speaker on the Council like pandaren, tribal like the Darkspears, or go for an elected leader like the goblins and gnomes.

- - - Updated - - -

The Loyalists never knew the full plan. Dark Rangers and Nathanos more often than not knew more. Velonara could be posing.

I doubt it. She openly questioned Sylvanas's leadership in the Hunter class hall, including whether or not free will really figured into the equation, and seemed to warm up more to the Horde and Forsaken throughout BFA, much like Lillian. Of the Dark Rangers, Velonara is one of a handful I'd expect was genuine in renouncing her loyalties to Sylvanas, especially with years of service thrown aside as nothing within two breaths, confirming the suspicions she held in the Hunter class hall about Sylvanas's leadership, while the Horde welcomed her back with open arms. She says it best herself: while Sylvanas lamented the Forsaken as being slaves to their condition, she refuses to fall to the same nihilistic worldview, seemingly out of sheer spite.

[Arrashi]

They're the "leaders" insofar as they organized the revolts and whatnot in their guerilla war on the sethrak, but they're not leaders insofar as an official system of leadership goes. They're more like Ji and Aysa, Lillian, and Eitrigg in that they're there to make sure the vulpera have a presence/voice at the table. Now that they're free, the Horde's got their backs in keeping them free, and they've got long-term prospects, if Blizzard dedicated any amount of time to actual worldbuilding after the X.0 patches, they'd start getting down to the brass tacks of how they want to organize, whether that means remaining communal with a speaker on the Council like pandaren, tribal like the Darkspears, or go for an elected leader like the goblins and gnomes.

I would assume that vulpera don't really need a government, but rather just a council that acts in times of crisis, and in dealings with outside forces.

[Caerule]

They didnt have a problem accepting Death Knights or Demon Hunters. Well, maybe they had during first moments, but a single word of the High King silenced their disgust.
There's very little difference between DKs and Forsaken anyway.

Pretty much nonsense given that Death Knights are part of both factions.

Leaders in Warcraft change their mind on hated things, when they become needed for the good of the people. You see this switch the entire time.

Legion invades? Maiev Shadowsong and the Watchers release the Demon Hunters. This after their obsessive pursuit of Illidan and his ilk, and the entire saga of hatred and death that happened between Warcraft 3 and TBC during Maiev's pursuit of Illidan. They even worked side by side in Legion, Illidan and Maiev.

Same with DKs during the Scourge invasion. The population's reaction to Death Knights is clear, when you finish the starting scenario. The cityfolk and guards toss rotten fruit at you. Yell hateful things. And call for a lynch mob. It's only a declaration from the king or warchief that gets them to leave you alone. Those leaders know the world is at stake, and that you are required to help fight the threat. It's not an act of acceptance or compassion, but necessity.

That's not the case here. You really should read the Before the Storm novel, for a good view on how the living members of the Alliance view the Forsaken. Even carefully selected humans, each the most willing among 5 selected, had many that rejected friendly contact with the Forsaken that they knew in life when actually seeing them face to face. Their family. Sure, there were a few success stories. But it is clear that, even their closest loved ones, are considered abominations to many in their Alliance if they are among the Forsaken. If carefully selected individuals have trouble accepting even those they loved, how do you expect a population to accept those Forsaken they do not even know.

And the situation is reversed as well. You can't portray a them as a necessary evil, as was the case with DKs and DHs. Quite the opposite. Sylvanas' actions and the war will have demonized and engrained the Forsaken even further as a monstrous force, especially with the Night Elven Forsaken fighting in the war. There's more than fear and disgust to overcome now: There's actual hatred. And no survival incentive to overcome that giant hurdle. I'd call that anything but nonsense.