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  1. #21
    people want Classic+ because of the design ethos and a storyline that's coherent. that's it.

    I played WoW the most during TBC, but now in retrospect I know that a few things introduced then led to slow declines in the game overall. Flying; heroic dungeons; tokens for tier gear; smaller raids; quest hubs; dailies. None of them are present in classic, and I miss none of them.

    We won't get a Classic+, as much as I'd like it.

    - nostalgia will result in more people playing a TBC expansion than continuing to play Classic+
    - the current designers and Blizzard employees don't have a Classic mindset; even if they wanted to make classic they couldn't.
    - Activision is interested in microtransactions, engagement, and unending growth. A Classic+ merely promises continued subscriptions (perhaps modest growth if they did it well).
    - finally, the ego of the current leadership. investment in a Classic+ would be an acknowledgement that the story writing and game design leadership have been headed in the wrong direction for years. won't happen.

    We got Classic because of the fumble of 'don't you have phones?' and a gap in their release schedule pointing to declining revenues. Classic was a 'in case of emergency, break glass' maeouver, nothing more.

    I'm thankful we have it. Its the most fun I've had in a Blizzard game in a decade. I'll likely stay aboard for the ride all the way through to the end of TBC, then pack my bags and move on for once and for all.

  2. #22
    The idea of classic+ to to keep the core of classic, with all of its cons, and just add new content, new gear with not itemized stats, difficult or long attunements, grindy rep, Just a new tier with new content but no changes to the core of classic like 1hr mail and having to fly everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egzis View Post
    I swear, if vanilla was released right now with updated graphics, it would be the laughing stock of the decade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    This whole thread explains in a pretty nice manner how can Beliebers exist.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    well it wouldnt be ''modern'',they would stick with classic-like aditions
    What are classic-like additions? Because TBC had classic-like additions. And then WOTLK had TBC-like additions. And so on and then we got to the mainline. Somewhere along the line, we lost that classic feeling, but when? How can they now make classic-like addition without doing the same thing as before?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    This is exactly it, some people like classic , others like bfa. But a large portion of the playerbase got hooked on wow during some of the other expansions and would probably like something more than classic but less than bfa.
    Personaly I think going back to something like the old talent trees or giving players more build freedom and breadth to experiment would go a long way to giving the middle road what they want. Retail wow has become to much like a moba in a way or player progression feels to much "on rails" I think the unique procs and trinkets are good step and going back to class over spec is also good. But I'd like to see more, I think soulbreezy on YouTube had a very good idea in regards to talent trees and abilitys

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    What are classic-like additions? Because TBC had classic-like additions. And then WOTLK had TBC-like additions. And so on and then we got to the mainline. Somewhere along the line, we lost that classic feeling, but when? How can they now make classic-like addition without doing the same thing as before?
    Cataclysm class changes is when I first noticed this phenomena.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    What are classic-like additions? Because TBC had classic-like additions. And then WOTLK had TBC-like additions. And so on and then we got to the mainline. Somewhere along the line, we lost that classic feeling, but when? How can they now make classic-like addition without doing the same thing as before?
    Changes from Classic to TBC:

    - 'heroic' dungeon modes
    - flying
    - optimized quest hubs
    - resilience gear (e.g. first attempt to segregate pve from pvp)
    - arenas
    - smaller raid sizes (40 -> 25)
    - dailies
    - less faction identity (paladins for horde, shaman for alliance)

    Changes from TBC to Wrath

    - achievements (the beginning of the 'gotta catch em all' collectibles)
    - recycling content (Naxx raid)
    - heroic raids
    - heroic class, heirlooms (e.g. more design intent shifting away from leveling to the end game)

    Until this point, we have a refinement of existing classic design. Many of the changes turned out to be for the worse over the long term, but could be justified as incremental changes to an evolving player base.

    Then Cataclysm hits:

    - gutting of talent trees (removed entirely in MoP IIRC?)
    - rework of the entire 1-60 process (can't got back to kansas anymore)
    - hyper optimized quest hubs + flightpaths
    - intrusive storyline with numerous cutscenes
    - removal of any challenge in the leveling process; lots of macguffin mechanics introduced (e.g. vehicles; take possession of X; click the widget to do the thing)

    Its safe to say *every* dungeon revisit in Cataclysm (and since) has resulted in inferior tubes of monsters, with less intricacies and nuances and shallow stories.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Cataclysm class changes is when I first noticed this phenomena.
    Yeah, but it will be different for everyone.

    Take for example bag space. Juggling that was a big part of classic. Then you get a keyring. That's nice, still classic-like, saves some space. Bigger bags. Ok. Removal of quiver, giving an extra bag to hunters. Well... Quest drops not taking up space. Hm. Even bigger bags... Stuff stacking to 200... And now I have half empty bags after farming and questing for hours, because they're huge and a lot of stuff doesn't even go in it anymore. When did it stop being classic-like?

    Or returning to town to learn spells. Changed in little step from having to go back regularly, and having to time it with a HS, to having a shorter cooldown on HS, to removing spell ranks to not having to go back at all.

    So yeah, that's the problem with wanting classic-like additions. There is no set point where it stops being classic-like, no clear definition of what classic-like is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by probert View Post
    Changes from Classic to TBC:

    - 'heroic' dungeon modes
    - flying
    - optimized quest hubs
    - resilience gear (e.g. first attempt to segregate pve from pvp)
    - arenas
    - smaller raid sizes (40 -> 25)
    - dailies
    - less faction identity (paladins for horde, shaman for alliance)

    Changes from TBC to Wrath

    - achievements (the beginning of the 'gotta catch em all' collectibles)
    - recycling content (Naxx raid)
    - heroic raids
    - heroic class, heirlooms (e.g. more design intent shifting away from leveling to the end game)

    Until this point, we have a refinement of existing classic design. Many of the changes turned out to be for the worse over the long term, but could be justified as incremental changes to an evolving player base.

    Then Cataclysm hits:

    - gutting of talent trees (removed entirely in MoP IIRC?)
    - rework of the entire 1-60 process (can't got back to kansas anymore)
    - hyper optimized quest hubs + flightpaths
    - intrusive storyline with numerous cutscenes
    - removal of any challenge in the leveling process; lots of macguffin mechanics introduced (e.g. vehicles; take possession of X; click the widget to do the thing)

    Its safe to say *every* dungeon revisit in Cataclysm (and since) has resulted in inferior tubes of monsters, with less intricacies and nuances and shallow stories.
    Lots of people would claim flying was the end of classic. Also, why is adding dailies ok, but streamlining quest hubs not? You are right about what changed, but there is no objective way to classify any of those as classic-like or not. It's all subjective, even when you happen to find one change that everyone seems to agree on.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    Isn't the entire point of Classic to play the game exactly as it once was, blemishes and all?e of those things from Classic back into Retail?
    A lot of people want that, but a lot of people also want to experience Classic but with the modern QOL of today. Unfortunately, the first crowd are a lot louder and cannot accept any other opinion than their own, while the latter simply wanted the option to experience classic in an easier way, which would be classic+.

    The real question is, why can Classic be made, but Classic+ cant be?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    Yeah, but it will be different for everyone.

    Take for example bag space. Juggling that was a big part of classic. Then you get a keyring. That's nice, still classic-like, saves some space. Bigger bags. Ok. Removal of quiver, giving an extra bag to hunters. Well... Quest drops not taking up space. Hm. Even bigger bags... Stuff stacking to 200... And now I have half empty bags after farming and questing for hours, because they're huge and a lot of stuff doesn't even go in it anymore. When did it stop being classic-like?

    Or returning to town to learn spells. Changed in little step from having to go back regularly, and having to time it with a HS, to having a shorter cooldown on HS, to removing spell ranks to not having to go back at all.

    So yeah, that's the problem with wanting classic-like additions. There is no set point where it stops being classic-like, no clear definition of what classic-like is.

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    Lots of people would claim flying was the end of classic. Also, why is adding dailies ok, but streamlining quest hubs not? You are right about what changed, but there is no objective way to classify any of those as classic-like or not. It's all subjective, even when you happen to find one change that everyone seems to agree on.
    That why you work to concepts not specifics if you want to change retail.

    Alot of people like qol or loosing the qol
    But
    Alot of people don't like how things are currently in retail

    So the constructive questions to answer for retail improvement are.

    What were the things those elements of the game fulfilled in players fantasy and enjoyment that are nonger being filled and is there a way to fulfill them in a more modern way without sacrificing the good qol we got over time?

    For that we need a list of things we defiantly liked about the older versions of wow that are now gone, I don't think any one really gives a damn about bag space but for trainers what was it about trainers and go back to train and having different spell ranks that was fun and what game design element did it fulfill?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    Isn't the entire point of Classic to play the game exactly as it once was, blemishes and all?
    Well yes, but actually no. The point of Classic can vary wildly from person to person, and that reflects on whether one wants no changes, some qol changes, classic+, tbc, etc.

    Some people want Classic just to be able to re-visit the old zones that were replaced in Cata. Some people want Classic because they prefer the way the endgame and rewards work. Some people want to play the old versions of their favorite classes. Some just want to do those dungeons and raids in relevant difficulty again. Some just want to try them for the first time. Some just want to play with no cross-realm. Some genuinely like all the lack of qol.

    It can be one of those reasons or other ones, or a mix of them, or even all of them. There is a lot of possible reasons for wanting to play or at least try Classic, and because of this there are also many directions one might want Classic to go in.

  10. #30
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    I used to think Classic was just hype and nostalgia, but the launch proved me wrong. It has been a blast to see a server arise out of nothingness, and I have never in all my WoW time felt so connected to other players. Levelling characters with no shortcuts whatsoever was awesome. Classic can be a struggle sometimes, but ironically, struggling is actually part of what brings people together.

    Classic+ is simply continuing the game that people like most, while also providing a 'what-if' scenario. What if the Infinite Dragonflight was able to alter the future timeline? There's inifinite alternate storylines they could explore in Classic+.

    TBC can still happen. In my ideal world, they would eventually have 4 Classic clients:
    1) Pristine Classic. No changes.
    2) TBC Classic. Any character can be copied from Pristine Classic (once).
    3) Wrath Classic. Any character can be copied from TBC Classic (once).
    4) Classic+. Any character can be copied from Pristine Classic (once).

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    Some people want Blizzard to start over with classic as a base. They want graphic updates, balance updates etc., but removed everything that makes the gameplay streamlined and remove accessibility to content through LFG/LFR etc. WoW should only reward the most dedicated players, etc.
    The most dedicated players, who spend more time in game, DO deserve to have things, kill bosses, and gain power than the average player should never obtain

    That’s part of what makes the older wow special. You had to earn your place in the world. Now, the world bends itself to how you want to play and rewards everyone near equally for it.

    When everyone is special, nobody is

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by probert View Post
    Changes from Classic to TBC:

    - 'heroic' dungeon modes
    - flying
    - optimized quest hubs
    - resilience gear (e.g. first attempt to segregate pve from pvp)
    - arenas
    - smaller raid sizes (40 -> 25)
    - dailies
    - less faction identity (paladins for horde, shaman for alliance)

    Changes from TBC to Wrath

    - achievements (the beginning of the 'gotta catch em all' collectibles)
    - recycling content (Naxx raid)
    - heroic raids
    - heroic class, heirlooms (e.g. more design intent shifting away from leveling to the end game)

    Until this point, we have a refinement of existing classic design. Many of the changes turned out to be for the worse over the long term, but could be justified as incremental changes to an evolving player base.
    Except you forget the core changes that came with WotLK, and still is the fundamental design philosophy driving WoW :

    - Non-raid content being trivialized.
    - Catchup mechanisms.
    - Automated grouping.
    - Wild acceleration of the stat inflation.
    - Homogeneization of classes and gear.

    There is no difference in philosophy between WotLK and later expansions. There is just a difference on how much time and iterations of this same philosophy has been applied. WotLK is the moment WoW went toward a shitty design, Cata was just the proof that the shit had already hit the fan and it wasn't possible anymore to go back to a better but more involving design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    A lot of people want that, but a lot of people also want to experience Classic but with the modern QOL of today.
    Classic with the QoL is not Classic, because the QoL removes the small hurdles that help getting the fundamental character of the game. Classic with QoL is retail, just go play it instead of trying to ruin it for the people who actually wanted Classic in the first place.
    Of course some QoL might exist without altering Classic, but most of what people call QoL are details which change the dynamic of the game, but they simply are too short-sighted to even understand it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    That why you work to concepts not specifics if you want to change retail.

    Alot of people like qol or loosing the qol
    But
    Alot of people don't like how things are currently in retail

    So the constructive questions to answer for retail improvement are.

    What were the things those elements of the game fulfilled in players fantasy and enjoyment that are nonger being filled and is there a way to fulfill them in a more modern way without sacrificing the good qol we got over time?

    For that we need a list of things we defiantly liked about the older versions of wow that are now gone, I don't think any one really gives a damn about bag space but for trainers what was it about trainers and go back to train and having different spell ranks that was fun and what game design element did it fulfill?
    I feel you are advocating for classic-like improvements in mainline WoW. That is fine, that's something you can work on, as you say, as it's not classic anymore and you can do whatever you want. The original post I responded to was about updating classic with classic-like addons, so it stays classic, and that's impossible.

  14. #34
    I want Classic + because I want "more of the same", not Classic + as in adding QoL features.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Except you forget the core changes that came with WotLK, and still is the fundamental design philosophy driving WoW :

    - Non-raid content being trivialized.
    - Catchup mechanisms.
    - Automated grouping.
    - Wild acceleration of the stat inflation.
    - Homogeneization of classes and gear.

    There is no difference in philosophy between WotLK and later expansions. There is just a difference on how much time and iterations of this same philosophy has been applied. WotLK is the moment WoW went toward a shitty design, Cata was just the proof that the shit had already hit the fan and it wasn't possible anymore to go back to a better but more involving design.

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    Classic with the QoL is not Classic, because the QoL removes the small hurdles that help getting the fundamental character of the game. Classic with QoL is retail, just go play it instead of trying to ruin it for the people who actually wanted Classic in the first place.
    Of course some QoL might exist without altering Classic, but most of what people call QoL are details which change the dynamic of the game, but they simply are too short-sighted to even understand it.
    Proof that Wotlk had shitty design? Numbers of subs lowered? I find it funny to most ppl defending that, it never occured that Woltk was released at a time where the console market was skyrocketing through the roof. And that also the mmorpg genre was no longer the prefered genre of players.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    ...I really don't understand all the folk asking for a "Classic+". Or those asking to add certain, specific features from retail to Classic. Isn't the entire point of Classic to play the game exactly as it once was, blemishes and all?
    Not necessarily. My point in playing Classic was finding the guys I've started Vanilla with and who have, for the most part, given up on WoW long ago but now many of them have returned. Enjoying the game with them is conditional on the general authentic Vanilla feeling, but certain conveniences like a guild bank or auto-dismount would not deter anyone from finding continued enjoyment.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    What are classic-like additions? Because TBC had classic-like additions. And then WOTLK had TBC-like additions. And so on and then we got to the mainline. Somewhere along the line, we lost that classic feeling, but when? How can they now make classic-like addition without doing the same thing as before?
    Because we didn’t get Classic-like editions. We got new stuff entirely with each expansion.

    Not only that, but the original max level content in classic was made entirely irrelevant as soon as TBC came out.
    Classic+ for me would introduce new content that requires old content to be completed and doesn’t completely invalidate the previous stuff as well. I have a lot of ideas on how this will work. Gonna write a post this weekend with some stuff I’ve been iterating on since classic launched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    I used to think Classic was just hype and nostalgia, but the launch proved me wrong. It has been a blast to see a server arise out of nothingness, and I have never in all my WoW time felt so connected to other players. Levelling characters with no shortcuts whatsoever was awesome. Classic can be a struggle sometimes, but ironically, struggling is actually part of what brings people together.

    Classic+ is simply continuing the game that people like most, while also providing a 'what-if' scenario. What if the Infinite Dragonflight was able to alter the future timeline? There's inifinite alternate storylines they could explore in Classic+.

    TBC can still happen. In my ideal world, they would eventually have 4 Classic clients:
    1) Pristine Classic. No changes.
    2) TBC Classic. Any character can be copied from Pristine Classic (once).
    3) Wrath Classic. Any character can be copied from TBC Classic (once).
    4) Classic+. Any character can be copied from Pristine Classic (once).
    My only concern with this is the massive split in player base this would cause. I think Classic+ could introduce Outland and Northrend in a way that doesn’t require you to have a new max level and doesn’t make the gear drops from those zones make the older content irrelevant either.

    You can also have class changes tied to specific pieces of content if people are worried about nerfing the classic content by buffing bad specs.

    Oh and as for the story: the story is already in place to go to Outland anyway and would then tie in nicely with Wrath. Who is the biggest threat to Azeroth that we know? Arthas. Who has a magical undead slaying weapon that is now corrupt? Alexandros Mograine. Where is the supposed second son of Mograine that can help purify the blade? Outland. HMMM

    Big post this weekend. Will explain all of the systems, raids, story, etc. I’ve come up with over the last few months.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2019-11-14 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Phone posted twice

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Boklord1 View Post
    I for one would prefer a tbc release later on, but Classis + just symbolizes a better game really I think. Before titanforged, before flying, before pretty homogenized classes (because in all honesty, there isnt a lot of flavor in retail right now).

    Classic definitely misses the QoL changes that we got later on, but it has a lot more class diversity and rpg going on, as well as gear being pretty important to your character instead of just going out and for example doing some dailies for epics. I think at the end Classic+ just symbolizes WoW before it got to be some sort of Diable emulator and was its own thing.
    tbc and wotlk and 1000 times better than classic, but claiming classic has more diversity and rpg is wrong, many classes have 1 viable spec and thats it, and there isnt much rpg going on, there is no story its just do quests, pvp or raid/dungeon.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    Isn't the entire point of Classic to play the game exactly as it once was, blemishes and all?
    no, maybe thats why you are confused.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    What are classic-like additions? Because TBC had classic-like additions. And then WOTLK had TBC-like additions. And so on and then we got to the mainline. Somewhere along the line, we lost that classic feeling, but when? How can they now make classic-like addition without doing the same thing as before?
    classic like additions would simply be folowing the same formula dont see how its hard to imagine,basicaly naxx 2.0 with better gear,a new zone that doesnt scale the rest of the content or add catchup,but at the end of the day they cant do to much as adding more and more stats just gets crazy,naxx was already pretty high power creep wise even by vanila standards,and people didnt even get to experience it much

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    tbc and wotlk and 1000 times better than classic, but claiming classic has more diversity and rpg is wrong, many classes have 1 viable spec and thats it, and there isnt much rpg going on, there is no story its just do quests, pvp or raid/dungeon.
    tbc was probably the best version of wow,but saying wrath was better than classic is insanity,people have an extreme roze tint when it comes to wrath,im guessing most people simply started in wrath so they are biased or they have a boner for arthas,but wrath imo was among the worst expansions ever,proly worse than wod,as wod wasnt rly bad just lacking,as a contrast wrath had insane catchup that they actualy dialed down in future xpacs,wrath had by far the easiest raids and easiest dungeons,and there rly wasnt much to do outside raiding and pvp,and this may just be my personal experience,but i felt wrath had the worst imbalance ever,ret palas were broken for half the xpac,dks were broken for most of it,and pvp became crazy bursty even at the end with crazy dps scaling with raid gear and op trinkets

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