Sylvanas and her supposed brilliance.

[Quaade]

--- snip --- I'm unable to understand the whole "Sylvanas is smart and a master schemer," when there's nothing in the game that supports it. All that we have that support it is Word of God.

Wrathgate/Siege of Lordaeron:
Nothing in it states that she knew about it or even planned it and if she did it was an incredibly stupid plan. The "master plan" involved throwing things at Arthas and hoping he died instead of cutting off his escape routes and then bombarding him with the stuff until he died. Then there's the rebellion itself. If she was truly a master manipulator she would have known it happened and planned for it to happen in order to harvest sympathy points and divert attention away from the Wrathgate since she could easily shovel the blame onto someone else and get rid of anyone opposing her in one fell swoop while at the same time shore up her political support.

Equip Varimathras with a device that blocked his ability to use telepathy, then install a device in secret that monitored his use of telepathy because reading his personality it would be quite obvious that an enslaved Dreadlord would try to get on top. Then when she knew who his coconspirators were, allowed the rebellion to happen, because she knew that others would help her because rather the devil you know. Then finish it off with a short questline where you were sent to investigate the corpse of someone that was just found murdered. The corpse would have some sensitive documents nearby. Reporting back to Sylvanas she would go, "I knew him, he was my advisor and it seemed that he was trying to sell secrets to my enemies when they betrayed him. I'll have my guards look into it, I promise you." Of course, nothing would happen and the reason she said those things were to control the narrative. Then a later reveal would put this event in a new light.

Meeting with Godfrey:
No smart manipulator would ever assume that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." Instead, it would be "the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy." That means meeting them with caution instead of with open arms as she did and got shot for it.

Siege of Andorhal:
Managed to win against an opponent who had already decided to stop fighting since the logistics were against him. His nearest source of reinforcement was far away and her's was right next door. She had a massive and overwhelming advantage.

Becoming the Warchief:
A master schemer would have put "becoming Warchief" as something that could happen although extremely unlikely if they set out gaining influence. Instead the video shows her in real surprise as the emotion reaches her eyes.

Stealing control of Ayer:
Was done in the dumbest way it could possibly be done. Create a diplomat mission instead of a clandestine one. This would ensure that any movement against her would create tensions and be an excuse for starting the war she wanted to have. And she could go there with guards without anyone being able to do anything without creating tensions.

Burning of Teldrassil:
Nothing she did was premeditated, it was a purely emotional reaction based on what Summermoon said instead of brilliant premeditation. No one could see her and her rage was real as it reached her eyes instead of a pretend rage. A smarter way would have been to normalising the cut. Announce that the penalty for trying to help them would be to execute some of them, That would leave the highly-trained army coming back to get her out unable to act based on the fear of consequences. Then she could invent some NE attackers and execute the NE she had threatened to do. Then she could promise more would die as a punishment and at this point, of course, the NE would act thus perpetuating the cycle until everyone was dead And by making it as a consequence of someone's else actions she could have drawn it out and legitimised her actions which would remove any justification of a rebellion against her.

Second Siege of Lordaeron:
You only use scorched earth tactics if you know you're gonna lose and if doing so nets you a great tactical advantage as the areas is unable to be that useful if reconquered. Until she loses she knows that she's gonna win. And her contingency would be rendered ineffective since it's an upgraded version of her main weapon and if someone could defeat her main weapon they would be able to create great colds, that points towards one person only, Jaina Proudmore, and if she showed up the contingency itself would also be useless to kill Anduin as Jaina can just teleport him out of danger. Result: Massive resentment from her people and an area that could never be reconquered even if greater Lordaeron was retaken.

Time as Warchief:
In the loyalist questline whenever she speaks you get the impression she's in total control and three steps ahead of the rebels. Then in the Mok'gara she looses her cool when she's scratches which makes a lie of the whole "in control and three steps ahead" part.

Loyalist ending:
Before her ouster due to incomåpetently telling her true feelings like an 80s villain, she had refused to make a deal with Anduin since he was untrustworthy because of his advisors, while at the same time having no qualms with making a deal with Azshara whose name is practically synonymous with backstabbing and untrustworthy. "I made a deal with Azshara because she would have honored it." Let me rephrase that to a version that actually makes sense and makes Sylvanas look smart, "I made a deal with Sylvanas because I could somewhat anticipate when she would betray it."

Serving the Jailer:
"I will never let Arthas control me!" and "this undead existence is a curse." She then willingly serves the Jailer in order to extend her curse which she spreads to others without their consent.

I could understand if she was an unreliable narrator, which would make her an interesting character. Instead, we have this abomination of a character who fails all the time, except when she has an overwhelming advantage, that is only Word of God and massive Plot Armour competent. Is she smarter and better at manipulating than the others? Yes, she is, as they're unable to manipulate their way out of a wet newspaper.

The abilities of anyone are only seen as competent if their opposers also have competent skills, else they just less incompetent than their opposition. Sherlock Holmes would just be another smart guy without the existence of antagonists who really tested him and. Else it would just be Holmes smart - the British police massively stupid. Instead, it's the British police smart and Sherlock Holmes many times smarter.

Sylvanas is in no way portrayed as smart since her opposition is bottom levels of acting stupidly and still manages to foil her schemes, which in turn makes her master scheming and manipulation seem even more incompetent than it already is.

People admiring her just seems like the Sunk Cost fallacy to me, people have already invested in her emotionally and thus they have to make up and believe fiction about her in order to justify the emotional attachment they already have because everything that she has done in-game of supposedly brilliant things is on the bottom 1.000.000 of brilliant and manipulative moves anyone have ever done. High school students are better at pulling of intrigue than her. I've lived for less than 40 years and I'm a better schemer and manipulator than someone who's lived for centuries and supposedly knows the ins and outs of people and their actions.

Mod Edit: Let's avoid antagonizing people right off and focus instead on the actual substance of the argument.

[BlakeArt]

It's very hard to write "brilliant" or "clever" character because you need to be brilliant yourself to do it right.

[Combatbutler]

Sylvanas is incredibly stupid, no doubt about it, but among the blind the one eyed is king. I don't know a single character that isn't pretty much as fucked up as Sylvanas in terms of raw stupidity. Which is one of the many reasons blizz storytelling is so flat and lackluster.

[StillMcfuu]

The problem is the lore and its terrible handling over the past 8 years.

[SirPaper]

I liked Sylvanas as she was presented in WC3: TFT, up to the events of WotLK. After that, and especially with BfA, she's lost her special place in my heart.

[Thoarin]

yes that how i think about this Sylvanas Character too.
From beeing a mastermind Tactician Highelf General to a Undead banshee controlled by Arthas to her Position as the Queen of the Forsaken, she kinda now looks like a Ego driven, power hungry emotionaly unstable tyrant....
First she wanted defend her PPl, then she wanted to gather the PPl who share the same Faith (the outcasted), after the fall of the LK she didnt know whats her purpose was.. she found Satifaction in leading the Forsaken... and all of a Sudden she want to be Warchief (never wanted that till BfA), kills her own PPL, and want to obliterate all life on azeroth for Power and same kind of Prison ??

[Kyphael]

It's not so much that Sylvanas is some kind of mastermind as much as the rest of the Horde are complete idiots.

[baskev]

snipped

Wrathgate: she was not yet in friendships with the jailor ( that only happend after this).

The rest is easy if you watched blizzcon or read the stuff. What is in the most of these threads not the case.

So let me break it down REAL easy for you and other people.

- She has been in colusion since icc with the jailor.
- the jailor and sylvanas get the power from all the death souls.
- all her actions have been to maximize death. Ergo more power for her and her "boss"
- she does not serve the jailor, she works with him and have the same goal. To beat death, never to die and unite everyone in death.....( her wish for her sisters ).


Like for real people....this is common lore.

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas is incredibly stupid, no doubt about it, but among the blind the one eyed is king. I don't know a single character that isn't pretty much as fucked up as Sylvanas in terms of raw stupidity. Which is one of the many reasons blizz storytelling is so flat and lackluster.

Actually sylvanas is so smart that she realised that someone may read her thoughts so to protect herself she lied to herself with false inner monologues. She is true tactical genius.

[Quaade]

Wrathgate: she was not yet in friendships with the jailor ( that only happend after this).

The rest is easy if you watched blizzcon or read the stuff. What is in the most of these threads not the case.

So let me break it down REAL easy for you and other people.

- She has been in colusion since icc with the jailor.
- the jailor and sylvanas get the power from all the death souls.
- all her actions have been to maximize death. Ergo more power for her and her "boss"
- she does not serve the jailor, she works with him and have the same goal. To beat death, never to die and unite everyone in death.....( her wish for her sisters ).


Like for real people....this is common lore.

There are lots of ways she could maximise the number of people dying while still maintaining the position os power she had and in that position, she could keep the number of people dying to the maximum for longer. With her actions of utter stupidity, she has lost this position, can no longer keep the number of people dying to a high number. It's at best a short term gain in exchange for nothing.

All we have Blizzard saying she's a master manipulator, this is words, and everything in-game that she has ever done, perpetrated, or otherwise instigated shows the opposite, these are her actions. And actions always speak louder than words.

To use a recent RL example, Donald Trump, he says he's the least racist person around, I believe that he thinks this is true, and his actions over the last 40 years show that he holds an incredible racist bias to the point that no one can objectively believe what he says. Sylvanas is exactly the same, the people around her say she's smart and everything she's done in-game is high school levels of manipulation.

[TigTone]

Undeath twists a person. Undeath changes a person.

Not to mention all the trauma she went through well forced to do the Lich kings bidding.

Take a deep look at her history from her perspective.

Everyone just settles for the “ohh shit wrtiters doing what ever they want.” While that is partly true it’s not always out of the blue writing.

[Maljinwo]

Sylvanas is too smart. She even outsmarts her own inner thoughts

[Combatbutler]

All we have Blizzard saying she's a master manipulator, this is words, and everything in-game that she has ever done, perpetrated, or otherwise instigated shows the opposite, these are her actions. And actions always speak louder than words.

Because blizz cannot write compelling stories with deep characters that is the crux here, as you said they say she is smart and cunning and that is what she is in universe, but we know she she is mentally challenged to say it diplomatically, but due to the narrative and blizz standpoint on the matter every other character is even more so.

[Quaade]

Undeath twists a person. Undeath changes a person.

Not to mention all the trauma she went through well forced to do the Lich kings bidding.

Take a deep look at her history from her perspective.

Everyone just settles for the “ohh shit wrtiters doing what ever they want.” While that is partly true it’s not always out of the blue writing.

Except she became a master manipulator and schemer after she became undead. She was different before the transformation. Before she was just arrogant and at least had something to justify that arrogance in the form of her achievements. Now she has none and her sense of arrogance is unjustified, so I have to agree with you that undeath changes you. Now her actions, views, and opinions are both arrogant and incompetent.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas is a raging moron, but her opposition would be rejected from the shortbus for being too retarded so she comes across as a world class intellect in comparison.

[Soon-TM]

I have to agree with the OP. For all her supposed tactical brilliance, she didn't have a lot to show until BfA. She didn't even scheme her way into her rise as Warchief - so far. Although if history is any hint, that part is low hanging fruit for a retcon, even if the Vol'jin quests in BfA lead nowhere.

But still, I'm pretty sure that tactical geniuses accept defeat, should it ever befall to them, with much more stoicism than what Sylvie's emo outbreaks seem to suggest. Her writing is so bad that the character had to pull a literal Deadpool during her internal monologue, which is quite close to cheating the audience.

[TigTone]

Except she became a master manipulator and schemer after she became undead. She was different before the transformation. Before she was just arrogant and at least had something to justify that arrogance in the form of her achievements. Now she has none and her sense of arrogance is unjustified, so I have to agree with you that undeath changes you. Now her actions, views, and opinions are both arrogant and incompetent.

She is incompetent when her rage wins her over but she has accomplished her main goal.

Break the crown.

[Quaade]

She is incompetent when her rage wins her over but she has accomplished her main goal.

Break the crown.

You can change that to "she's always been incompetent since she was raised as a banshee," and you'd still be right As for accomplishing her goals. Anything can be brute-forced. If I wanted to make your life bad I could just pull out a gun in front of you and kill someone you were attached to, mission accomplished, except now you're angry at me.

Or, I could make you fuck up your job, get you fired, bankrupt you, and make you seem like a heinous person so that everyone leaves you and you be all alone and if you had any pets they would be traffic accidented. Mission accomplished and I have plausible deniability for everything.

Sylvanas is only clever and able to accomplish her goals because as her opposition behave so incredibly incompetent. That her incompetence seems like genius in comparison. If she was pitted against a real schemer, like Thanatos from Gargoyles, she would be dancing in the palm of his hand while she thought that she was winning and on top of the situation.

[Combatbutler]

Y
Sylvanas is only clever and able to accomplish her goals because as her opposition behave so incredibly incompetent. That her incompetence seems like genius in comparison. If she was pitted against a real schemer, like Thanatos from Gargoyles, she would be dancing in the palm of his hand while she thought that she was winning and on top of the situation.

She wouldn't, because the responsible writer, of these franchises would then make her the schemer she is supposed to be. Then again Gargoyles pretty much already has a sylvanas in it,called demona, she even reees just as often and screws herself over.

[TheFirstOnes]

"But but but...it's all within her mAsTeR PLaN"

Give me a fucking break.