Sylvanas and her supposed brilliance.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Sylvanas is as intelligent as she is powerful. She is always one step above everyone else even when things don't go exactly as planned and that's because she always has a backup plan. She is the only one to get everything she wanted so far got gotten away with it. She caused way more damage than Garrosh beating him in his own game and still got away with it.

She knew N'zoth would wasted one way or another. She wanted Azshara to finish the Heroes but then kill N'zoth but that didn't happen. Backup plan 1 comes into play where the champions of Azeroth with the Heart of Azeroth would kill N'zoth and we did. Had we failed she'll still have yet another backup plan where she'll personally go kill N'zoth herself.

She knew Godfrey has a chance to betray her but she wasn't worried because she knew her servants will resurrect her in case it happens.

The war with the Worgen it doesn't matters if she wins or loses the campaign. Winning would be a plus but still the most important thing is the hungering darkness so she benefits no matter what.

Deathwing managed to destroy the world pillar completely and turn the planet into a wasteland. No problem all the deaths will fuel her partner and she'll kill Deathwing and his masters herself.

The Legion managed to win then no problem Argus would had wiped out most of reality empowering her master even more and she'll be unstoppable at that point. She'll kill the legion and probably even Sargeras with that much souls.

The war in Pandaria and Garrosh's True Horde. She was fine with it as every side gets casualties. Had we failed to stop Garrosh then no problem cause her backup plan would be her killing Garrosh herself.

Tricking the Alliance and Horde rebels to fight with her forsaken loyalist in Origimmar but Saurfang somehow made her expose herself. No problem because losing the Horde at this point doesn't matter anymore cause she has already gotten more souls.

There are many more examples and as you can all see, She has backup upon backup plans. She will outplay anyone that tries to mess with her. Everyone's been playing checkers but she's playing chess.

[Quaade]

You've pretty much hit it on the head OP. It really feels like Sylvanas got the same treatment that Garrosh got in Cata where he get characterised in two different styles (absolute warmonger and "There are standards to war") before they decided he would be the villain of the next expansion. Similarly Sylvanas was being written as genius mastermind who had plotted out a grand plan while also simultaneously having her own machinations subverted, sometimes whilst having been made aware of such subversion in advance, in addition to being invested in the future of her people at the same time as desiring all life to expire. They really need to corral their writers.

Garrosh was a surprisingly deep character, just a shame that it came later and was mostly only for people with the knowledge to see it. His two identities make sense when you see him as a whole. It makes no sense in the context of MoP and Cata and only serves to make the writers seem like bumbling idiots with no grasp on anything. The two Garrosh were reflections on who Grom was. The one with principles was the Garrosh that Thrall saw Grom as and has filled him with stories based on his hero-worship of him. The other is the Grom Garrosh was always told about, cruel, arrogant, warmongering, taking what he wanted. Garrosh was never given the chance to be Garrosh, his entire life he was seen as a reflection of good Grom and bad Grom. His daddy issue outburst in WoD was because of that. Thrall was the father figure Garrosh never had, unfortunately Thrall was a shit father figure and only saw Garrosh as a reflection of Grom the way he viewed and remembered Grom. Everyone pretty much saw him as a reflection of Grom Hellscream instead of as Garrosh Hellscream and in the end, Garrosh's personality became that of the bad Grom since it's easier to rule through fear.

Is this a "Garrosh did nothing wrong"? No, this is a reason for the wrong things Garrosh did.

[Yoshingo]

Everyone thinks Sylvanas has a thousand xanatos gambits planned when in reality she's just a second rate villain who often sabotages her own plans with her temper tantrums when people resist her villainy.

Far be it from me to point out people who think Sylvanas is playing 9D chess with a real life parallel but...

Also its funny people think Blizzard really planned all of Sylvanas' actions as far back as Cataclysm for this revelation. Anybody being realistic knows that, at best, this was starting to be developed around Legion. They've clearly just scapegoated all the bad things since Cataclysm that her fanboys have hated and decried as "out of character" as being part of some master plan all along relatively recently.

When even if you look back as recent as, say, War Crimes, this logic makes no sense considering she wanted to kill her own sister and resurrect her as a Forsaken. Which, had the lore of NOW was applied to back then, she'd be damning her own sister that she apparently still loved to the Maw. And we know she cared about her in that novel because we see her own opinions about her expressed privately.

[Life-Binder]

well she became one of the most powerful beings on Azeroth and is on her way to mastering death

seems pretty good to me
results speak for themselves

she is also very good at triggering ppl outside her game




wish they made a Sylvanas/death faction

[Florena]

Like all characters Sylvanas is 'smart' when she's written to be smart and dumb when the writers either want someone else to be smart or just can't manage writer her BEING smart.

[RichardRoe]

The Sylvanas writing has been super poor, especially the recent expansions, for sure. All this talk about having a brilliant plan and how everything would make sense in the end...
... Nope. Just serving death itself seemingly. How brilliant. So clever. Many wow.

It's not surprising the main reaction I saw to the Shadowlands trailer was "Aww common, not more Sylvanas, I'm so sick of her".
Well done, writers.

[Dellis0991]

Sylvanas is as intelligent as she is powerful. She is always one step above everyone else even when things don't go exactly as planned and that's because she always has a backup plan. She is the only one to get everything she wanted so far got gotten away with it. She caused way more damage than Garrosh beating him in his own game and still got away with it.

She knew N'zoth would wasted one way or another. She wanted Azshara to finish the Heroes but then kill N'zoth but that didn't happen. Backup plan 1 comes into play where the champions of Azeroth with the Heart of Azeroth would kill N'zoth and we did. Had we failed she'll still have yet another backup plan where she'll personally go kill N'zoth herself.

She knew Godfrey has a chance to betray her but she wasn't worried because she knew her servants will resurrect her in case it happens.

The war with the Worgen it doesn't matters if she wins or loses the campaign. Winning would be a plus but still the most important thing is the hungering darkness so she benefits no matter what.

Deathwing managed to destroy the world pillar completely and turn the planet into a wasteland. No problem all the deaths will fuel her partner and she'll kill Deathwing and his masters herself.

The Legion managed to win then no problem Argus would had wiped out most of reality empowering her master even more and she'll be unstoppable at that point. She'll kill the legion and probably even Sargeras with that much souls.

The war in Pandaria and Garrosh's True Horde. She was fine with it as every side gets casualties. Had we failed to stop Garrosh then no problem cause her backup plan would be her killing Garrosh herself.

Tricking the Alliance and Horde rebels to fight with her forsaken loyalist in Origimmar but Saurfang somehow made her expose herself. No problem because losing the Horde at this point doesn't matter anymore cause she has already gotten more souls.

There are many more examples and as you can all see, She has backup upon backup plans. She will outplay anyone that tries to mess with her. Everyone's been playing checkers but she's playing chess.

Chess?! She has literal plot armor. If she didn't have the jailer boosting her that bitch would've stayed dead after frog splashing off of icecrown.

[Quaade]

She knew N'zoth would wasted one way or another. She wanted Azshara to finish the Heroes but then kill N'zoth but that didn't happen. Backup plan 1 comes into play where the champions of Azeroth with the Heart of Azeroth would kill N'zoth and we did. Had we failed she'll still have yet another backup plan where she'll personally go kill N'zoth herself.

Except she never says that there's no reason for her to hold any information back as at this point as even lying and saying what you just said would make her look better. The way she presented it was straight, she made a deal with Azshara to leave her alone because Azshara was oh so trustworthy. Also if she's that powerful she has no need for an army, she could just go to any major city in turn and waste the place.

She knew Godfrey has a chance to betray her but she wasn't worried because she knew her servants will resurrect her in case it happens.

Yes, clearly, this also explains her throwing a fit over being killed, losing Val'kyrs to resurrect her and doing everything she could to obtain more Val'kyrs.

The war with the Worgen it doesn't matters if she wins or loses the campaign. Winning would be a plus but still the most important thing is the hungering darkness so she benefits no matter what.

Yeah, she never did what she did because Garrosh straight up told her to win at all costs even at the destruction of the Forsaken, so she chose to deploy the plague instead of getting a pyrrhic victory.

Deathwing managed to destroy the world pillar completely and turn the planet into a wasteland. No problem all the deaths will fuel her partner and she'll kill Deathwing and his masters herself.

Refer to your first argument.

The Legion managed to win then no problem Argus would had wiped out most of reality empowering her master even more and she'll be unstoppable at that point. She'll kill the legion and probably even Sargeras with that much souls.

Even allowing for that premise it would make no sense, there can be no death without life, so if Azeroth stopped existing so would the Shadowlands, Sylvanas gets her powers from there, so her source of powers would also vanish, which would make no difference as she would be dead with the destruction of Azeroth in the first place. Being able to survive and kill Sargeras that would make her stronger than all of the titans combined, this includes Sargeras, at the apex of their power. The titans created the root of all life in the known universe. The Shadowlands only cover Azeroth.

The war in Pandaria and Garrosh's True Horde. She was fine with it as every side gets casualties. Had we failed to stop Garrosh then no problem cause her backup plan would be her killing Garrosh herself.

After the fact knowledge. Nothing in the game indicated this. She could possibly kill Garrosh. At least she could for certain kill the unpowered Garrosh, Garrosh with the Ysharjs upgrade would be a lot dicier. Again see point one. If she was that strong she would just lol every major city out of existence. They still exist so she has no such power. She can defeat the LK, Bolvar has less power and more principles than Arthas holding him back and even Arthas was unable to do that feat.

Tricking the Alliance and Horde rebels to fight with her forsaken loyalist in Origimmar but Saurfang somehow made her expose herself. No problem because losing the Horde at this point doesn't matter anymore cause she has already gotten more souls.

Sylvanas got knicked on the cheek and exposed herself out of REEE!! despite being a master schemer who was totally in control and cunningly controlled the situation. Your internal logic fails to match up with what's seen and Sylvanas' actions. And before that, she let her emotions drag her into the Mok'gara despite supposedly intelligent and one step ahead of everyone. An intelligent, cunning, master schemer would never let themself get baited that way.

There are many more examples and as you can all see, She has backup upon backup plans. She will outplay anyone that tries to mess with her. Everyone's been playing checkers but she's playing chess.

I would take this as satire, alas I've seen people stating similar arguments for real. Poe's Law is so heavily in effect at this point that it's impossible to tell satire from honest beliefs. I can point you in the direction of the Discworld novels. For an intelligent and cunning schemer who's several steps ahead of those who want to harm him, and often involved in the plots to harm him since they're easier to control that way, look up the character Havelock Vetinari. "I assure you, my motives are entirely transparent." The double meaning of that sentence allows you to tell exactly what you mean and the listener will interpret as they want and get caught unprepared. This is something Sylvanas has never pulled off and will likely never be able to.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Then how come she has made no cunning plans in the entire 15 years of the WoW franchise?

Cunning by outside of warcraft standards? No, cunning within the warcraft universe? Yes.

[Quaade]

Cunning by outside of warcraft standards? No, cunning within the warcraft universe? Yes.

Cunning within the Warcraft universe is never eating lead paint The bar is so incredibly low that selling your products to someone else than the promised buyer would be considered cunning. Katarina Prestor was more cunning than Sylvanas. Withhold payment to the stonemasons, watch them get so angry against SW and then provide them with the means to vent that anger against SW and creating a permanent threat she had no connection to. That's brilliant even outside WoW's incredibly low standards. Create an enemy you can send towards your supposed allies and at the same time do everything within your supposed allies to keep the enemy you created so enraged they would stop listening in the first place.

Nefarian was definitely the paint eater of those two as even during his downfall in BWL he was all "just as planned, you killed all my minions fighting your way here and now I'll finish you all off!" To which the player answered, "you've clearly gone mad." This is exactly what Sylvanas is doing except none of the story writers acknowledge that.

[Vakir]

Because it's not about being "perfect". It's about being above the common rules set for other charactes within the universe by getting OP powers in secret and playing 4D chess with deities, it's about her failing due to her "flaws" but magically winning anyway and really never suffer real consequences due to her mistakes or to her opponents' victories, it's about her being always two steps ahead of everyone else "in theory" even if she is just a nobody and is in no way more special than anyone else. Because she's the creator's pet basically.

Thank you. Talked about this in the 9.0 thread and tons of...exceptional individuals tripped over themselves trying to justify it including stating that her internal monologue and involvement in the Wrathgate wasn't a retcon.

P.S. People stating that she's smart by the standards of the writing, your bias and defense of the character is already noted from your history. Doing the equivalent of whataboutism in relation to universal bad writing doesn't absolve the character of being trash.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Cunning within the Warcraft universe is never eating lead paint The bar is so incredibly low that selling your products to someone else than the promised buyer would be considered cunning. Katarina Prestor was more cunning than Sylvanas. Withhold payment to the stonemasons, watch them get so angry against SW and then provide them with the means to vent that anger against SW and creating a permanent threat she had no connection to. That's brilliant even outside WoW's incredibly low standards. Create an enemy you can send towards your supposed allies and at the same time do everything within your supposed allies to keep the enemy you created so enraged they would stop listening in the first place.

Nefarian was definitely the paint eater of those two as even during his downfall in BWL he was all "just as planned, you killed all my minions fighting your way here and now I'll finish you all off!" To which the player answered, "you've clearly gone mad." This is exactly what Sylvanas is doing except none of the story writers acknowledge that.

That's the point I'm making, Blizz writers have made it clear they are incapable of writing true cunning or intelligence, especially in the MMO format.

Thank you. Talked about this in the 9.0 thread and tons of...exceptional individuals tripped over themselves trying to justify it including stating that her internal monologue and involvement in the Wrathgate wasn't a retcon.

P.S. People stating that she's smart by the standards of the writing, your bias and defense of the character is already noted from your history. Doing the equivalent of whataboutism in relation to universal bad writing doesn't absolve the character of being trash.

Whats your point here, Sylvanas is a trash character in a narrative full of trash characters?

[Super Dickmann]

P.S. People stating that she's smart by the standards of the writing, your bias and defense of the character is already noted from your history. Doing the equivalent of whataboutism in relation to universal bad writing doesn't absolve the character of being trash.

Whataboutism is a meme argument. Nothing exists irrespective of context, characters in fiction included. To say that Sylvanas is a retard while foregoing to mention that she's in a setting where the general barometer is extremely low is like criticizing the one-eyed guy for lacking depth perception in a home for the blind.

There's a reason I haven't actually contested OP's claims and that's because, while the specifics example he uses are iffy, re: Wrathgate and Stormheim in particular, his general conclusion is correct, as is the way he relates it to the rest of the setting.

[dojichan]

There are multiple types of planners;
The common one(both in life and in lore) that people think of when they think of a good planner...is someone who creates a nearly flawless plan and follows through with it; This is what people "THINK" sylvannas is and why they make fun of her for playing "5d chess".

The other type is someone who comes up with many possible plans and adjusts them based on the situation. In other words, always has a plan and always has a backup to it. This is a less common one and the one sylvannas exhibits. This type of planner also always weighs Risk/Reward.

This is why when she loses her temper all her plans don't collapse.
This also explains most of the things you talked about.
Wrathgate-
There is evidence that she knew about it in first places:
Thus she knew- Either
it would kill him or it would oust the traitors for her. In either case it was a win win(You may notice that most undead troops in symantec were in a safe position to minimize her losses)
Risk- Low to her troops/people Reward- High

Godfrey
Low risk/ high reward(again)- Even when he turned on her, she didn't lose much except a meaningless keep. If her plan had worked, it would have been her first genocide of an enemy(high reward). And she did use it to kill and weaken both the gilnaius and the alliance.

Andorhal
Plans: Scourage crush enemy(She is protected and alliance take huge hit), Scourage force alliance to retreat(She is protected and alliance take huge hit), Alliance win(Val'kyr push alliance out; She is protected and alliance take some hit.) The later panned out AND gave her info that Koltira could not be trusted.

Warchief
Her surprise was about pacing. She had started to make plans to get in good graces but these plans had not happened yet. The current Warchief still hated her and she knew it. This was a long term goal (And someone besides her accomplished it)

Burnin of Teldrassil
Her brilliant distraction and tactics let the city get taken. Yes her rage ruined her plans but she still had backup plans to get out and already had undercity prepared just in case.(Not lore wise undercity attack happened very very quickly)

Trusting Azshara -
The only things she trusted azshara to do were things azshara wanted to do in the first place. It was less about trust and more about using someones goals. This is contrary to working with Anduin who did not share her goals and has allies who do not share her goals.

The reason people see her as dumb and over pushes is because they expect a mastermind like sherlock and instead get a planner. She doesn't create the best long term plans but she has dozens of them. This is the reason she was a thorn in LK side in WC3 and why she was the only one to slow down his plans(She loses only because of her uncontrolled anger aka her weakness she has always had)

[Vakir]

Whats your point here, Sylvanas is a trash character in a narrative full of trash characters?

Nah, it's that you, Dickmann, and a few others already have a reputation for being the personal Sylvanas defense force. Now that the writing has shown itself to be especially unkind to her by past standards, the narrative is now "yeah, Sylvanas is bad, but isn't everyone? Maybe worse? Haha, high five, fellow lorefans. :^)"

It's transparent. Just say "why yes, she does suck" and be done with it. Otherwise it's the rough equivalent of whataboutism for fictional characters.

Whataboutism is a meme argument. Nothing exists irrespective of context, characters in fiction included. To say that Sylvanas is a retard while foregoing to mention that she's in a setting where the general barometer is extremely low is like criticizing the one-eyed guy for lacking depth perception in a home for the blind

But she isn't one eyed. She is just as blind while also being propped up by the creative director as having 87 functioning eyes.

Read your signature dude. Just stop. We see this.

[Super Dickmann]

But she isn't one eyed. She is just as blind while also being propped up by the creative director as having 87 functioning eyes.

Read your signature dude. Just stop. We see this.

Yes, that's what we call an informed attribute. It's what most of the narrative is made out of, the equivalent of how we're told Daelin is evil, but he's actually right. Your gotcha here is moot, since not only is my position transparent, but much like most crowing about whataboutism it's a way to cover for not wanting context pointed out.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nah, it's that you, Dickmann, and a few others already have a reputation for being the personal Sylvanas defense force. Now that the writing has shown itself to be especially unkind to her by past standards, the narrative is now "yeah, Sylvanas is bad, but isn't everyone? Maybe worse? Haha, high five, fellow lorefans. :^)"

It's transparent. Just say "why yes, she does suck" and be done with it. Otherwise it's the rough equivalent of whataboutism for fictional characters.



But she isn't one eyed. She is just as blind while also being propped up by the creative director as having 87 functioning eyes.

Read your signature dude. Just stop. We see this.

Ah, nothing like the "Admit I'm right!!!!!1" argument to really get the facts flowing. The Writing has always been lack luster, but it hadn't yet reached the "actually their inner monologue was wrong and we just retconned it" bad.

You'll be hard pressed to somehow get someone to simultaneously say the writing doesn't suck and that the blatant shoehorned plot they heaved on Sylvanas is proof that she's always been a bad character without them being someone like you with a obvious bias against the character.

Saying people are wrong and accusing them of whataboutism by using whataboutism is a bold strategy though.

[Vakir]

Yes, that's what we call an informed attribute. It's what most of the narrative is made out of, the equivalent of how we're told Daelin is evil, but he's actually right. Your gotcha here is moot, since not only is my position transparent, but much like most crowing about whataboutism it's a way to cover for not wanting context pointed out.

What context? No context justifies implying the character is somehow better or that they're marginally more intelligent when they aren't.

All WoW characters are dumb, but you're dreaming if you don't see that they are made more dumb at the expense of a creator's pet that also consistently manages to evade consequences despite any rational progression of events.

I don't think anyone contests the fucking subzero temperature take that is "WoW writing is pretty bad," it's the lack of acknowledgement that Sylvanas isn't just an example of this poor writing, but the worst one. Just admit it. We are well beyond the veil of "hooman potenshul" woes now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

What context? No context justifies implying the character is somehow better or that they're marginally more intelligent when they aren't.

All WoW characters are dumb, but you're dreaming if you don't see that they are made more dumb at the expense of a creator's pet that also consistently manages to evade consequences despite any rational progression of events.

I don't think anyone contests the fucking subzero temperature take that is "WoW writing is pretty bad," it's the lack of acknowledgement that Sylvanas isn't just an example of this poor writing, but the worst one. Just admit it. We are well beyond the veil of "hooman potenshul" woes now.

That's the beautiful part about opinions though, not everyone needs to subscribe to yours.

In good faith I can't say Sylvanas exemplifies the worst of WoW's writing next to Saurfang's honor adventure, Baine's entire existence, the Handling of Calia or Tyrande being portrayed as unstable for not wanting peace and so on.


Just admit it doesn't magically strengthen your argument by the way, if anything it makes it look desperate.

[Super Dickmann]

What context? No context justifies implying the character is somehow better or that they're marginally more intelligent when they aren't.

All WoW characters are dumb, but you're dreaming if you don't see that they are made more dumb at the expense of a creator's pet that also consistently manages to evade consequences despite any rational progression of events.

I don't think anyone contests the fucking subzero temperature take that is "WoW writing is pretty bad," it's the lack of acknowledgement that Sylvanas isn't just an example of this poor writing, but the worst one. Just admit it. We are well beyond the veil of "hooman potenshul" woes now.

Compared to "let's not bring gasmasks to the city where gas is made", "let's not win the war and saves lives because our enemies will be sad after we just invaded their city", "let's plant my people in the desert out of racial guilt", etc. etc., yes Sylvanas is slightly more intelligent on average, and about the same if we're talking BFA exclusively.

I mean, you pretty much describe Anduin with that second line. He, not Sylvanas, is the worst example of WoW's godawful writing by far, and it's around his general line of characterization that the story has bent over backwards in the past expansion, not Sylvanas. Sylvanas is a one-dimensional baddie because only this sort of character could possibly oppose protagonists who are purely good and objectively correct. There's a reason one character is a schizophrenic strawman and the other has his every decision validated, never faces hardship and ends with every character the audience is meant to like agreeing to him on every point. The writing doesn't let genocide off the hook and employ the Nuremberg defense to service Sylvanas, but to validate the 'peace at all costs, we're all the same really, no one has any contradictory interests or goals' position of her opposition and by extension, the writing staff.