Sylvanas and her supposed brilliance.

[VinceVega]

Chess?! She has literal plot armor. If she didn't have the jailer boosting her that bitch would've stayed dead after frog splashing off of icecrown.

Well yes... that is the whole point... everything she did since then is because of exactly the reason you gave. That is not plot armor that is just power. With your reasoning every character in game that has some kind of power has plot armor.

[Vakir]

I mean, you pretty much describe Anduin with that second line. He, not Sylvanas, is the worst example of WoW's godawful writing by far, and it's around his general line of characterization that the story has bent over backwards in the past expansion, not Sylvanas. Sylvanas is a one-dimensional baddie because only this sort of character could possibly oppose protagonists who are purely good and objectively correct. There's a reason one character is a schizophrenic strawman and the other has his every decision validated, never faces hardship and ends with every character the audience is meant to like agreeing to him on every point. The writing doesn't let genocide off the hook and employ the Nuremberg defense to service Sylvanas, but to validate the 'peace at all costs, we're all the same really, no one has any contradictory interests or goals' position of her opposition and by extension, the writing staff.

Aren't they identical issues on the opposite ends of the spectrum? Logic warps to vindicate Anduin's sanctimony driven by the morality of the writers with some additional political elements of their ethos delivered with the subtlety of a sledgehammer to my throat (i.e. "non-toxic masculinity").

Sylvanas by contrast sure seems to represent a weird carte blanche against reason to look super-cool and devious despite it being both unearned and tiresome, not to mention at the expense of everything being in service to her every finger in the pot of the story with no TRUE setbacks or consequence to this point.

In other words, you can have a Mary Sue and a Villain Sue existing at the same time. She still sucks hard.

You'll be hard pressed to somehow get someone to simultaneously say the writing doesn't suck and that the blatant shoehorned plot they heaved on Sylvanas is proof that she's always been a bad character without them being someone like you with a obvious bias against the character.

The obvious bias by...pointing out known bias in favor of the same character. Seriously, how many threads HAVEN'T you been in with the same tired rhetoric? Are we supposed to ignore that?

Seriously, "but shes still clever by the metric of other idiots!" isn't just the most faint praise imaginable, it adds nothing to the conversation beyond softening the sting. That's why I'm pointing it out, how can someone still think this without being entirely deluded?

[Eggroll]

I mean, you pretty much describe Anduin with that second line. He, not Sylvanas, is the worst example of WoW's godawful writing by far, and it's around his general line of characterization that the story has bent over backwards in the past expansion, not Sylvanas.

How's that Anduin shirt coming?

[Mojo03]

Story is a tool to drive and give a reason for new gameplay, not meant to actually be a real story. This is why nothing ever makes sense.

Problem solved.

[tripleh]

If Sylvannas is working for the jailer/her new boss. Then who is bwonsomdi's boss that he speaks of that isn't happy with Sylvannas??? Since she is causing imbalance. Is the devs/writers gonna ignore that and just press on with there current story? Are we ever gonna know who this entity is? Voljin gonna play a part? Maybe find out who raised his spirit? There leaving alot of things open that probably never get addressed.

[Vakir]

How's that Anduin shirt coming?

The context for that bet is particularly funny in light of this conversation. Sylvanas' power of warping surpassed even his expectations of her limits that he was that confident about to that extent to make such a bet...and even now we're still walking back the severity.

[Super Dickmann]

How's that Anduin shirt coming?

Delaryn went to hook up with Calia while other dark rangers went with Sylvanas. I'd call that a successful prediction. Just ask @tenebra

Aren't they identical issues on the opposite ends of the spectrum? Logic warps to vindicate Anduin's sanctimony driven by the morality of the writers with some additional political elements of their ethos delivered with the subtlety of a sledgehammer to my throat (i.e. "non-toxic masculinity").

Sylvanas by contrast sure seems to represent a weird carte blanche against reason to look super-cool and devious despite it being both unearned and tiresome, not to mention at the expense of everything being in service to her every finger in the pot of the story with no TRUE setbacks or consequence to this point.

In other words, you can have a Mary Sue and a Villain Sue existing at the same time. She still sucks hard.

By the end point of your reply we enter into the same conclusion, we just have a different diagnosis of the core of the problem. And the reason why I can't buy that Sylvanas is the core of the issue is because the story, that is BFA, jury's still out on Shadowlands, is not actually about her. The genocide and Nuremberg defense stuff are not done to elevate her, she doesn't even feature all that much. They serve the message. What she is is a narrative device in order to propel other stories forward which carry the message along, and that message is forgiveness of all, acceptance of everyone, 'non-toxic masculinity' and what have you. The narrative heft and focus is behind the message, not behind her. That's why Anduin, as the representative of the message, not so much as a character, is the core of the problem. In BFA, Sylvanas, like everyone else, bent to the needs of the message, not vice versa. That's why she exits stage left prior to the actual end, having served her purpose, while the message reaches its crescendo.

Given all the retcons in Shadowlands, and the general focus on her, Shadowlands might be the kind of narrative you're talking about, and much like BFA, it's come with its own different Sylvanas, whereas the message is nowhere to be seen.

[Yoshingo]

Ah, but you didn't catch on yet... Sylvanas will actually be the hero of the story in the longterm.
She isn't trying to hurt the Horde, she is trying to make the Horde stronger. Saurfang was being a bitch though, he personally betrayed her, so he had to go.

This is an absurd argument.

You can claim that, with some pretzel logic, that Sylvanas might be trying to stop death or some other craziness that only works because we don't yet know what the end game of Shadowlands is yet. But the idea that she "isn't trying to hurt the Horde" while she's actively, and solely, responsible for leading thousands of them to their deaths ON PURPOSE is just ridiculous.

[Darth-Piekus]

This is such an absurd argument.

You can claim that, with some pretzel logic, that Sylvanas might be trying to stop death or some other craziness that only works because we don't yet know what the end game of Shadowlands is yet. But the idea that she "isn't trying to hurt the Horde" while she's actively, and solely, responsible for leading thousands of them to their deaths ON PURPOSE is just ridiculous.

Isn't releasing the Scourge against Azeroth gonna hurt the Horde after all?

[Yoshingo]

Isn't releasing the Scourge against Azeroth gonna hurt the Horde after all?

No she's secretly helping the Horde, duh. Its all part of her master 9D chess plan.

[TigTone]

We should make a list of which race has caused Azeroth the most damage.

*cough* elves *cough*

[Darth-Piekus]

It's not an argument, it's a premise.

Trust me. Just as I was right about entire BfA being part of her masterplan, I'm pretty sure I'm right about her redeeming herself as well and or coming out on top after all this. This would just stay true to her WC3:TFT character traits.

Unless she is able to bring back all the dead and replant Teldrassil I dont know how she can be reedeemed. The Alliance and the Horde has beaten every single entity apart from Sargeras and they don't need any kind of Sylvannas redemption to beat any villain.

[Weatherwax]

Sylvanas is a raging moron, but her opposition would be rejected from the shortbus for being too retarded so she comes across as a world class intellect in comparison.

I have to agree with this.

And it all happens because the writing is atrocious. Like, an emo fifth grader could do better.

I find it hilarious btw, because it's not as if Blizzard had any actual issue, like integrating the player characters into the story or anything. No, WoW has a lore and a story where the player character doesn't even exist, it's got a linear narrative that doesn't depend on anything but what the writers want to put in, just like any simple series of YA books.

And still they fail completely at it - even when they have real-time audience feedback, and a very forgiving audience that gives them amazingly constructive criticism.

I'm not kidding. I wish my readers gave me the sort of professional, intelligent, technically focused feedback Blizzard gets on their writing. Sure, most of what shills see is "writing sucks," but because they don't really care about anything but shilling they don't see the amount of thoughtful, well-written, on-point feedback they get.0

I've myself seen many people explain the technical issues with the writing and how to fix it more times I care to count in posts on several media, from the official forums to elaborate magazine articles written by professional authors.

Blizzard simply ignores everything, even when - as is the case with BfA - the writing is cited as one reason for people who have and are still dropping the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless she is able to bring back all the dead and replant Teldrassil I dont know how she can be reedeemed. The Alliance and the Horde has beaten every single entity apart from Sargeras and they don't need any kind of Sylvannas redemption to beat any villain.

Sorry, but Rochana is right. Sylvanas will get a Kerrigan ending and everyone will be working for her at the end of Shadowlands. Remember what Ion said and the writing team has reinforced: the expansions have no ties to one another. Nothing that happened in one expansion matters to the next one, because they're all individual independent packages (that is, for example, why there was no tie-in from Legion to BfA whatsoever). Hence, Teldrassil won't even be referenced anywhere.

[Dellis0991]

Well yes... that is the whole point... everything she did since then is because of exactly the reason you gave. That is not plot armor that is just power. With your reasoning every character in game that has some kind of power has plot armor.

Ok I see my misgiving but even after the fact she isn't a great tactician... either that or blizz writers really fumble badly in game to make her so.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Unless she is able to bring back all the dead and replant Teldrassil I dont know how she can be reedeemed. The Alliance and the Horde has beaten every single entity apart from Sargeras and they don't need any kind of Sylvannas redemption to beat any villain.

If BFA taught you anything it’s that you don’t need to pay for your actions. Sylvanas doesn’t need redemption to be a hero.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

There is no doubt in my mind that Sylvanas is one of if not the smartest and wisest character in the lore.

[tripleh]

Sylvannas is just one character that I wish they would finally get rid of. Write her out or something, just tired of her being in the spotlight. It's no different then how Blizzard carried Guldan from Warlords over into Legion. We already know that shes not gonna rejoin the horde. Hints from Lilian Voss and others talking about the person that would be the next forsaken leader is already in play. Honestly just sick of Sylvannas at this point.

[ls-]

A character can only be as brilliant and smart as its writer.

[Golden Yak]

Sylvanas' brilliance will be revealed.

She is intending to destroy the Jailer and free the afterlife from his corruption. All her efforts to increase the body-count throughout Legion and BFA, including her plans to have all of the heroes attacking Azshara slain, was to A) increase her own strength since she too draws power from the Maw and B) seed the afterlife with powerful agents to eventually fight against the Jailer.

So see, Sylvanas is actually on our side, and is also super-smart and pretty.

[Friendlyimmolation]

A character can only be as brilliant and smart as its writer.

What we see is basically the end of the Dothraki 2, electric boogaloo