What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[rohoz]

Are you sure? I mean I recall in Legion people in my guild were hardly ever doing M+ and they still complained that any drop is useless because they had to have tier sets and their bis legendaries so there's no room for more.
Why are we even splitting this in 2? I don't think the raiders and M+ players are all that separate.

And raiders have been moaning since forever about tier sets. They changed LFR to not drop tier gear so they wouldn't have to farm that as well. And still a lower ilvl piece from normal or hc was better if it got you the tier set than a Mythic piece. Making this like it's a new thing in regards to BfA is bullshit. We didn't even have M+ when tier sets were seen as an issue.

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It's cool that you think so. But I think your average player does not have issues at all with getting a high ilvl piece. I think they feel lucky. That's not "general community". MMO-champ itself does not reflect the general community. Do you think your average player spends time in forums?
Do you honestly think someone who doesn't read outside sources and gets from a quest a 450 piece will be "oh damn this is so bad, this should be fixed"? Yes, the whole community feels like "why would I get rewarded better gear than expected, this will surely be an issue for me"?
And yeah, having a few people who can't think for themselves and promote how annoying it is for them that they get gear form other sources because there is no point in raiding hc are just deluded. People who ONLY raid hc wouldn't keep on raiding heroic anyway after a few kills just because there's gear that they could still benefit from. Sure, there are a few cases, but you need at least 10 people to keep going and you wouldn't have that in most hc-only guilds.

What kept people going in X difficulty, it was X+1 difficulty. And if there isn't one, you keep going for some 100% mount or for gear because you're top end and need it for next tier. Seriously. Why are we pretending the WHOLE community is sad because they get better loot?

Yeah you literally couldn't do M+ at any competitive level without tier and/or raid trinkets. ToS onwards for sure.

[Kralljin]

Are you sure? I mean I recall in Legion people in my guild were hardly ever doing M+ and they still complained that any drop is useless because they had to have tier sets and their bis legendaries so there's no room for more.

Pretty sure, because even now some M+ players are complaining that Mythic gear is out of their reach without titanforging.

And raiders have been moaning since forever about tier sets.

I don't recall any major complaints.

They changed LFR to not drop tier gear so they wouldn't have to farm that as well.

LFR was pretty much a non issue there as it has worked under PL for a long time now.
In order to actually acquire the proper piece you had to be rather lucky, it was far more likely to get the piece you're still missing from normal / heroic.
After all, only the 4pc was generally worth to drop a lot of Ilvl, which meant that you already had 3 pieces and you'd only have "two chances".
Also, LFR was even staggered later on, so during the first week, all of LFR (and thus, its tier sets) wasn't even an option for more organized raiding groups.

Whereas with M+, you either did raid and got the set bonuses or you didn't and they remained out of your reach forever.

Matter of fact, the only time i did LFR for set bonuses was DS, where you could easily trade pieces and had those insanely powerful bonuses for Tanks.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Honestly, I think it just needs to get easier over time again like it used to.
As a GM since Wrath, I have to say these raids have contained some extremely difficult bosses, and there is nothing that sucks more than struggling to keep 20 every week all while being out recruited due to progression.

Really a catch 22 if you ask me.

[dcc626]

to not be in a shit dying game would be a first good step.

next step would be to get rid of the shitty posters who complain about it on the forums

[Outofmana]

Back to only having one difficulty, which obviously would be easier than now, no "WA required" fights anymore like M azshara progress.

[rohoz]

Honestly, I think it just needs to get easier over time again like it used to.
As a GM since Wrath, I have to say these raids have contained some extremely difficult bosses, and there is nothing that sucks more than struggling to keep 20 every week all while being out recruited due to progression.

Really a catch 22 if you ask me.

it does.
There are nerfs that always happen, and people get more and more geared, thus also nerfing the raid.

With the last Azshara nerf even mid tier guilds can get CE this tier. Still 2 months to go.

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Back to only having one difficulty, which obviously would be easier than now, no "WA required" fights anymore like M azshara progress.

hard pass, go play classic for that.

[Ange]

I don't recall any major complaints.

So you slept whole legion with the "WORLD TOUR RAIDS" people HAD TO do for bis-raid gear (TF tier sets from OLD TIERS).

Either you are trolling or you skipped legion completly.

[Kralljin]

So you slept whole legion with the "WORLD TOUR RAIDS" people HAD TO do for bis-raid gear (TF tier sets from OLD TIERS).

People did that primarily for Legendaries, not Set bonuses.
And that is btw. not an issue of tier sets but of Titanforging.

If you use that excuse, then basically no items should be interesting / good anymore because anything was able to Titanforge.

[Ange]

People did that primarily for Legendaries, not Set bonuses.
And that is btw. not an issue of tier sets but of Titanforging.

If you use that excuse, then basically no items should be interesting / good anymore because anything was able to Titanforge.

Old tier sets blocked item slots way before WF/TF was in the game. Blizzard moved the "interesting / good" to azerite and essence combos and will just try another variant with the faction talents. Basicly the whole new expansion main theme is a growing tier-set-bonus replacement with more than just 1 variant for each spec.

In the classic forums people would call it "TierSet+".

[Majaflar]

IMO the biggest blow to mythic raiding has been due to M+
Bosses are overtuned. They are overtuned simply because Blizzard wants a "decent" race for World First, not a simple "Oh you've entered the instance first, congraaaaats" type of race.
Guilds like Method grinded and grinded and grinded in M+ for hours and hours and ultimately enter the mythic raid with far more gear (and choices) than ever in the history of the game. And Blizzard's response? Overtuning fights. Which leads to something else after that. To a barrage of nerfs to the boss fights so that the "pleb" mythic guilds actually have a shot at the boss.
The softcore mythic raiding guilds raiding 2-3 raids per week feel as if they are banging their heads against a concrete wall

The boss you (as non hardcore top 100 mythic raider) end up killing in the end of the tier is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT boss fight what the others faced.

So... Long story short
You can keep the RNG (with warforging / titanforging / sockets) but just bring "bad RNG prevention" mechanics

• The ability to add SOCKETS (they are doing it for next patch!)
• Add currency which will be used to UPGRADE gear pieces, adding +5 ilvl each time. If you have a mythic piece it takes less currency to upgrade cause less upgrades to reach "cap" but if its a gear piece from LFR then it will be a lot harder (exponential growth harder)

Doing it like this will only bring back the positive things in the wow history like... BIS LISTS! CAN WE HAVE THAT BACK?

[Kralljin]

Old tier sets blocked item slots way before WF/TF was in the game.

Okay, where's the problem?
They're BiS items, they are by definition blocking slots, yet i fail to see why this is fundamentally a bad thing unless you want to turn your gearing system into a crazed RNG fiesta.

Blizzard moved the "interesting / good" to azerite

Yeah, Azerite armor, presumably one of the most hated aspects of BfA.

essence combos and will just try another variant with the faction talents.

You know why they're bad?
Because of their generalized effect, they have to be good for everybody, no attachment to any existing class mechanic.
That's why they're worse than set bonuses.

Set bonuses interacted with your class, sometimes they created different playstyles, sometimes synergized with a given talent.
That's why people liked them.

[kaminaris]

Okay, where's the problem?
They're BiS items, they are by definition blocking slots, yet i fail to see why this is fundamentally a bad thing unless you want to turn your gearing system into a crazed RNG fiesta.

2 reasons:

Inaccessible for non raider - yes this is fucking gigantic issue as majority of wow players are not raiders
3 weeks and done, you effectively had minus 4 or ever minus 6 gear slots.

Yeah, Azerite armor, presumably one of the most hated aspects of BfA.

No, it is actually one of the BEST if not the best aspect of BfA.

Accessible for everyone, somewhat customizable, has vendor.

You know why they're bad?
Because of their generalized effect, they have to be good for everybody, no attachment to any existing class mechanic.
That's why they're worse than set bonuses.

Set bonuses interacted with your class, sometimes they created different playstyles, sometimes synergized with a given talent.
That's why people liked them.

Tier sets in 90% didn't do shit. Literally boring flat damage increases.

[Kralljin]

3 weeks and done, you effectively had minus 4 or ever minus 6 gear slots.

In a world where Titanforging doesn't exist, that's virtually true for any BiS piece.

No, it is actually one of the BEST if not the best aspect of BfA.

Feel free to go back to the release of BfA and repeat that one.
Let me remind you, there are flaw(s) within that system which Blizzard flat out admitted, ones they cannot fix because how the system was built.

Tier sets in 90% didn't do shit. Literally boring flat damage increases.

[kaminaris]

In a world where Titanforging doesn't exist, that's virtually true for any BiS piece.

No, tier sets were far more powerful than normal gear. That is the difference.

Feel free to go back to the release of BfA and repeat that one.
Let me remind you, there are flaw(s) within that system which Blizzard flat out admitted, ones they cannot fix because how the system was built.

Compared to absolute garbage tier sets, azerite has virtually no flaws.



Btw, I did look at statistics. I know exactly how much I needed to change the code of previous tiers, almost zero.

[Majaflar]

Honestly, I think it just needs to get easier over time again like it used to.
As a GM since Wrath, I have to say these raids have contained some extremely difficult bosses, and there is nothing that sucks more than struggling to keep 20 every week all while being out recruited due to progression.

Really a catch 22 if you ask me.

Idd

raids used to get easier cause of gear but right now they are tuned for higher ilvl due to people gearing up outside of raids

[Galerius]

I'd like to see more cosmetic rewards, also no piles and piles of recolored mounts but quality designed ones.

[Rhaxus]

It needs mythic mode for 10 man groups as my personal incentive to even try to get invested again

[Firedemon]

The experience, the best gear, a unique mount (more of than not), a title (generally) are not enough?
Or do you believe that adding 5 more mounts per raid, 10 transmog sets and 20 pets will magically make people have more time available to dedicate to raids?

[Echeyakee]

Don't think raids or rewards are a problem. Blizz has been downplaying the idea of guilds and groups for years now, and that is the main issue. The social aspect is gone and players are conditioned to instant grouping with people they will never meet again, so joining a guild and working around a shared schedule is just alien to many people at this point.

And M+ did not help, as it's a lot less work and time investment to get a group and do a dungeon, and there are no lockouts, so you can do it whenever and with anyone. Also you are pretty much guaranteed loot that is as good if not better.

So raiding became more of a high investment and uncertain return option with a bunch of restrictions and inconveniences.

I think what we need is a revamp of the guild system. And in needs to address several points:

• There should be a a barrier to creating a guild. At this point it's really just a matter of signatures, but it should be more involved. And not just a high price to create one, it has to involve effort. For example you can start a guild, but you need to do a bunch of quests and tasks together to get it "official", like setting up your base and getting the infrastructure in place. So that people are invested. And it should not be just some material donations or some shit, that could be done by one person with enough gold and willingness to visit AH.
• There needs to be a reason to join a guild, a tangible advantage. Yeah, we have perks, but they were nerfed so many times they are pretty meaningless for the most part. In BDO guilds make a lot of money on daily basis but also give a lot of it back to the members in wages and salaries (one is daily the other is based on your contribution to guild quests).
• We also need a proper way to recruit members and find guilds, that does not involve shouting in trade chat. I once tried to find my guild using the in-game tool on a new char, I gave up after about hour and a half of scrolling.
• There should be guild activities and a reason for both guild and it's members to care about them. Tangible rewards and need for cooperation, not just world quests and do X dungeons in a guild group.
• Guilds need bigger presence in the world, more than just <Taste good in your mouth> under your name.
• There should be things for GM and officers to do that affect the guild, and a reason to have officers and specific jobs for them, beyond "you can recruit and kick people".

Basically guild system needs to be a proper part of the game, not a tacked on system that's been mostly left alone for 15 years. You get people together and invested in what they are doing and who are they doing it with, they will naturally gravitate to activities they can do together. Not the other way around.

[Sansnom]

So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

The fact that you suggest there needs to be an appealing carrot for people to chase seems to imply there is a problem with raiding already. They are there for the loot. Not for the raid itself.