Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Shakana]

I believe the reason Valeera's hair doesn't clip through her hood is because her hair and her hood (as well as her head) is one single 'entity', unlike it is for us, players, where 'head', 'hair' and 'helm' are three separate 'entities' on their own, which is what causes all the clipping.

Exactly. While us players have many mogs that don't fit good even when we enjoy some. Those NPC's are worked in detail.

[Ielenia]

Mechagnomes are the ancestor to gnomes from before the curse of flesh. You can see them running around in Ulduar, along with mecha-earthen and mecha-vrykul.

Junker gnomes are more recent gnomes that have began to use mechanical enhancements.

They actually have a distinct appearance and lore, which High/Blood elves do not. And the fel green eyes of the blood elves is not cannon.

Um... excuse me? Do you have a source for that claim?

[Obelisk Kai]

Is it? What about being the #2 contributor that's led to this point.

Meaningless, as this argument primarily exists as those who want this refuse to accept they've been answered. As shown by the number one contributor being a pro High Elfer, yourself. The moment it is accepted you've been answered and this topic is let go is the moment it will end. So far High Elves have been ruled out on several occasions and on several other occasions they've affirmed the importance of diverse, exclusive factions. They did that three or four times two weeks ago.

The bold is all that matters. This is all that matters for those who are excited to finally get Wildhammer Dwarves, or pick w/e human ethnicity, or be w/e kind of troll, or a non-bony undead.

No one's gonna care that they have stoneform and are experts in archaeology, or that Stormwind was originally based on europeans, or that darkspears are jungle trolls, or that they're not decomposing.

And if the rumor about dark skin Blood Elves is true too, not going to care what the reason was for having fair skin in the first place.

Leaving aside the debate over whether Void Elves will actually get high elf like customizations, this idea that it exists within the mind of the individual is patently flawed.

After all, why not do it now? What is stopping you from pretending, right now, that the Void Elf you play is a Silver Covenant High Elf? According to you, the lore origin of the Void Elves doesn't matter, the void based racials (including one that turns on void form entirely randomly), the void based voice, the void themed flirts and emotes don't matter and they are going to be same no matter what customizations Void Elves receive in future. So something IS stopping you now and it is something you believe matters, and it's the skin tone. For a group determined to argue that this is about lore it always for some reason seems to keep coming back to those fair skin tones for some reason.

Besides, I said before and I will say it again, the core reasons have a lot more latitude when it comes to representing sub-groups. All someone has to say for me to buy it is that they've a Wildhammer mother and a Bronzebeard father, and the apparent contradiction between the racials and the aesthetic is instantly resolved. Same for the Trolls, any Troll RP'er can write a tale of forbidden love between their darkspear parent and that forest or jungle troll paramour...or talk about the time they were stuck in Nazmir for years and had to blend in with the Blood Trolls to survive, and adopted the markings afterward. There is so much narrative room for these guys to explain why they are the way that they are. These even helps the vast majority of players, those who don't care, as there is a believable narrative underpinning these new options.

Void Elves CANNOT do that. Like Lightforged Draenei, they are the product of a discrete event that changed them. We know exactly where they came from. They cannot pretend to be anything other than a Void Elf. Sure, you might think that it is the perogative of the individual to decide what their character is, but each individual set the bounds on their character on the character creation screen. No Void Elf can ever pretend to be anything other than what they are, a Void Elf and anyone who tries, likely to be some of the more lore-invested people in the game, are going to have their 'fantasy' continually ruined by the constant reminder that they are in fact a Void Elf.

What you propose isn't going to work.

[Syegfryed]

well... i can't debate against blindness. Let's leave it that way, i am getting tired

you can't debate against lore fact, thats it. Because its stated their only difference is politcal

I can not what?

prove anything you said

[Grythletubs]

Lmao "I've been posting here non-stop daily that I don't like playable high elves for 2 years because I want to prove you wrong"

Dear lord someone get him some help.

High elves are already alliance, I welcome them as a playable race =)

[Ignaz]

you can't debate against lore fact, thats it. Because its stated their only difference is politcal

prove anything you said

whatever you say, dude

[FlubberPuddy]

Meaningless, as this argument primarily exists as those who want this refuse to accept they've been answered. As shown by the number one contributor being a pro High Elfer, yourself. The moment it is accepted you've been answered and this topic is let go is the moment it will end. So far High Elves have been ruled out on several occasions and on several other occasions they've affirmed the importance of diverse, exclusive factions. They did that three or four times two weeks ago.

There's a difference between someone contributing to make something be added to the game vs someone who constantly just looks for new ways to say "no" yet can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out.

See the thing is, whatever you're referring to as "refuse to accept what has been answered" isn't true at all. Otherwise mods would close this thread, just like if someone made a thread with any more shadowlands leaks it would get shut down because we know what entails the shadowlands and it's not anything like Sylvanas taking over Stormwind.

There's a difference between the two, and the developers haven't outright denied High Elves in some form happening on Alliance the way they deny those flying enthusiasts that wish to fly at the beginning of expansions and don't want Pathfinder.

Leaving aside the debate over whether Void Elves will actually get high elf like customizations, this idea that it exists within the mind of the individual is patently flawed.

After all, why not do it now? What is stopping you from pretending, right now, that the Void Elf you play is a Silver Covenant High Elf? According to you, the lore origin of the Void Elves doesn't matter, the void based racials (including one that turns on void form entirely randomly), the void based voice, the void themed flirts and emotes don't matter and they are going to be same no matter what customizations Void Elves receive in future. So something IS stopping you now and it is something you believe matters, and it's the skin tone. For a group determined to argue that this is about lore it always for some reason seems to keep coming back to those fair skin tones for some reason.

SNIPPED lengthy example

What you propose isn't going to work.

As I said, because more people care about the aesthetics being there. As evidenced by the reveal of the new customizations coming to races and people aren't in an uproar over "omg we're not getting Wildhammer as an Allied Race " nor are people complaining that their desert looking troll comes from the jungle and will almost assuredly always be referenced as "we Darkspear" whenever their troll overlords speak to them. Almost no one (because I know there's always 1 person who will do anything possible) is going on a forum tirade that these new troll tribes aren't going to have specific racials or jokes or voice sounds because those things are vastly more minor than the aesthetic the model itself carries.

This is why I said before that we didn't have a huge uproar over Mag'har being from WoD vs Outland. Did it have some complainers? Yes, but nothing like how much shit Void Elves get nor how much people complain about Nightborne not looking like their NPC models for the playable model.

See everyone makes a little make-believe whenever they play their character, but there are certain features that are obviously more in your face than others. A Blood Elf getting blue eyes/hair will probably have people assuming it's a DK (just as current status quo), but a Blood Elf with dark brown skin is going to shatter any illusion about being a "fair-skinned elf" despite being described as such by Ion.

- - - Updated - - -

And with that new look of dark brown skin for a Blood Elf, it will enable people to RP however they wish to explain the new look, that is my point of differentiation.

The look enables the broader RP, the other way around as you’re trying to claim isn’t broad. Your way serves to explain the current status quo.

But all the new looks coming are serving to shake up the status quo, this has been my point the entire time and why I find your reasoning faulty.

As the overall customizations coming shake up the status quo (no more having undead that will have armor broken at certain parts to expose bones, having different ethnicities of humans, having different troll tribes rather than just a specific kind of jungle troll tribe, having different dwarf clans rather than just one).

Now you can always hearken back to believing “they will only do this with original races and not Allied Races” but it would just have me repeat my ‘being treated as second class’ commentary.

Not just that, but they haven’t mentioned any inkling of not shaking up the status quo for Allied Races. Ironically the only statement we’ve had regarding customization for an Allied Race was that it is possible they could get customization shaking up their status quo (Afrasiabi’s comment on possibility of High Elf skins coming to Void Elves). No mention though of your argument, “they will bring customization to these Allied Races that will reinforce their status quo looks.”

[protip]

I do believe that Allied races will get additional customization, but uncorrupted skin options for Void Elves come with these faction issues they keep bringing up. There may be a few high elves on the Alliance, but as long as Blizzard maintains the positions that playable races should be exclusive to their respective factions and that Blood Elves are not corrupted significantly by definition, I don't see why they would make that exception. High elves may have been requested for a very long time, but they're also the Horde's most popular race. If there is one race that would threaten faction balance, it is surely the most popular one. After all, that was why the Horde got high elves in the first place.

I don't mind ideas like half elf customizations for humans, or some options for night elf highborne who never left Kalimdor, for some examples. Those options would be supported by a unique position in the story to make them appear visually more similar to a high elf, without being identical to a Blood Elves. Uncorrupted Void Elves, however, are literally just Blood Elves on the Alliance that can't be paladins or demon hunters. In my opinion, we already have an uncorrupted high elf race, and I don't think the factions should be used as an excuse for duplicating races or for splitting the customization options a race has available into multiple otherwise identical races. Highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei are both unreasonably shallow as races, and I don't think that's the right direction for the game. Antlers or shiny tattoos should not cost $25 for a race change, let alone putting them on the opposite faction, like some suggest as a way to make high elves different from Blood Elves.

It's not even an issue of "Why should the Horde share?" it's an issue of "Why should the game have fewer overall options and factions that are less distinct?" I'd like to see people get some options that they feel comfortable rping high elves with, but copying Blood Elves over to the Alliance is not a good option, and neither is re-imagining the high elf model or customization options to arbitrarily make them physically different from Blood Elves. However, I know that many people in this thread are not willing to accept anything other than an "Alliance high elf," so I don't know how Blizzard could give those people what they want without sacrificing something that they consider more important.

TLDR: faction balance and exclusivity are important to WoW, at least for the devs' vision of the game, and it is more interesting to have distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options than a higher number of very similar races with fewer options for customization.

[FlubberPuddy]

With the way they’re implementing the new increased diversity of customization options I don’t see how they’re not “having distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options.”

The way they’re actually implementing these customizations that it’s likely we will get more unique races added in the future whereas the existing races will become more unique through their added extra customizations.

Faction identity is important and that means also honoring the identity of the races that are in each faction. This includes the High Elves which are still part of the Alliance since WoW Vanilla.

As somebody likes to remind everyone here, Void Elves even with High Elf customization would still have Void facials/voices/jokes etc and no access to a couple or so classes exclusive to Blood Elves (Paladins/Demonhunters).

Also I think it’s weird to talk about having unique options when the game itself have 3 different kinds of blue/purple Elves yet seemingly adding another fair skinned option of a related Thalassian seems to be the straw that breaks the camels back, that doesn’t make sense.

It seems like people are arguing that simply a fair skin thalassian should not be on Alliance despite the differences it would have akin to how Night Elves and Nightborne are both purple elves yet with different looks and animations and classes and racials.

Let’s recap:

1) The way they’re introducing new customizations is actually saving them from “taking up race slots” so someone saying High Elves would get in the way of another unique race has a defunct argument.

Ex: Wildhammer dwarves being added to Bronzebeards saves the race slot of having a Wildhammer on Alliance.

2) A Void Elf with High Elf customization doesn’t suddenly become a Blood Elf who can cast Arcane Torrent, be a Paladin, and ride around on Kodos and shit and go “FOR THE HORDE!”.

3) High Elves exist on the Alliance. Even Ion didn’t try to argue that they do not. Whether one considers them minor or major is a different issue. Chances are an Alliance player will always run into a High Elf on their faction at some point. Doubly so with the revamped portal room showcasing 3 High Elves there.

High Elves are unique in the sense that no other unplayable race is utilized to the degree that High Elves are for the Alliance. They tend to pop up with almost every expansion save for WoD with newer NPCs added here and there.

For a race that’s supposed to be in severe decline that’s not being represented as such.

———————————————————————-

But yeah that’s my spiel on it. And trying to say “if they look like Blood Elves they’ve become Blood Elves!” is frankly stupid as I point out that they would not carry the racials and class options of Blood Elves. It is not “making a duplicate race” in any sense.

Just like people are not going around saying, “omg so Blizzard added tattoos to dwarves this makes them just like the Dark Iron with tattoos I can’t believe we lost getting a unique race for this!?” Get your head into the game and be realistic and not hyperbolic.

[Varodoc]

I do believe that Allied races will get additional customization, but uncorrupted skin options for Void Elves come with these faction issues they keep bringing up.

There will probably be some elements (like darker eyelines) which still remind others that you are playing a Void elf. Besides their racial proc basically gives them Shadowform so in combat it'd be very difficult to mistake them for Blood elves.

[Ielenia]

2) A Void Elf with High Elf customization doesn’t suddenly become a Blood Elf who can cast Arcane Torrent, be a Paladin, and ride around on Kodos and shit and go “FOR THE HORDE!”.

If high elf skins come to the void elves, I can only wish that we also get some voice lines that reflect their high elf culture (jokes, flirt, etc), but that's me, and I know it'd likely never happen.

[FlubberPuddy]

If high elf skins come to the void elves, I can only wish that we also get some voice lines that reflect their high elf culture (jokes, flirt, etc), but that's me, and I know it'd likely never happen.

And I prefer a fully-fledged High Elf Allied Race, but yeah. What we have currently is clearly not enough (as this request exploded once VE released - as in playable), so hoping to get more High Elf fantasy on Alliance than what's currently there.

[Ielenia]

And I prefer a fully-fledged High Elf Allied Race, but yeah.

Same here. I would have much preferred to have an actual high elf race. I'd have been willing to accept Void Elves as the 'compromise' if Umbric and his group were high elf magisters from Dalaran, though, and not blood elves.

What we have currently is clearly not enough (as this request exploded once VE released - as in playable), so hoping to get more High Elf fantasy on Alliance than what's currently there.

Agreed.

[protip]

With the way they’re implementing the new increased diversity of customization options I don’t see how they’re not “having distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options.”

The way they’re actually implementing these customizations that it’s likely we will get more unique races added in the future whereas the existing races will become more unique through their added extra customizations.

Faction identity is important and that means also honoring the identity of the races that are in each faction. This includes the High Elves which are still part of the Alliance since WoW Vanilla.

As somebody likes to remind everyone here, Void Elves even with High Elf customization would still have Void facials/voices/jokes etc and no access to a couple or so classes exclusive to Blood Elves (Paladins/Demonhunters).

Also I think it’s weird to talk about having unique options when the game itself have 3 different kinds of blue/purple Elves yet seemingly adding another fair skinned option of a related Thalassian seems to be the straw that breaks the camels back, that doesn’t make sense.

It seems like people are arguing that simply a fair skin thalassian should not be on Alliance despite the differences it would have akin to how Night Elves and Nightborne are both purple elves yet with different looks and animations and classes and racials.

Let’s recap:

1) The way they’re introducing new customizations is actually saving them from “taking up race slots” so someone saying High Elves would get in the way of another unique race has a defunct argument.

Ex: Wildhammer dwarves being added to Bronzebeards saves the race slot of having a Wildhammer on Alliance.

2) A Void Elf with High Elf customization doesn’t suddenly become a Blood Elf who can cast Arcane Torrent, be a Paladin, and ride around on Kodos and shit and go “FOR THE HORDE!”.

3) High Elves exist on the Alliance. Even Ion didn’t try to argue that they do not. Whether one considers them minor or major is a different issue. Chances are an Alliance player will always run into a High Elf on their faction at some point. Doubly so with the revamped portal room showcasing 3 High Elves there.

High Elves are unique in the sense that no other unplayable race is utilized to the degree that High Elves are for the Alliance. They tend to pop up with almost every expansion save for WoD with newer NPCs added here and there.

For a race that’s supposed to be in severe decline that’s not being represented as such.

———————————————————————-

But yeah that’s my spiel on it. And trying to say “if they look like Blood Elves they’ve become Blood Elves!” is frankly stupid as I point out that they would not carry the racials and class options of Blood Elves. It is not “making a duplicate race” in any sense.

Just like people are not going around saying, “omg so Blizzard added tattoos to dwarves this makes them just like the Dark Iron with tattoos I can’t believe we lost getting a unique race for this!?” Get your head into the game and be realistic and not hyperbolic.

I don't think I'm being hyperbolic, and I haven't tried to make any of the arguments that you present. I simply view the issue as a situation where the faction system has taken priority over one specific request from a certain group of players. There are compromises that are possible by offering similar but ultimately different sources for blonde haired and pale skinned elves that have a longer or more exclusive history to base a distinct model on, and I would hope that would allow people to rp whatever they want to rp. I just don't think that reconceptualizing Blood Elves and Alliance high elves into visually distinct models does justice to their story, and I don't believe that Blizzard has any intention of introducing new races that are visually identical to existing ones.

The idea that Void Elves were the straw that broke the camel's back just doesn't make sense to me. Blizzard just reiterated that they view the faction system as a pillar of the Warcraft franchise. I don't even necessarily agree that that's the best direction for the game, but they've been pretty clear about their intentions on the topic. To be honest, I'd rather see cross faction play possible in some capacity, reasonably allowing blue eyed Blood Elves to be playable as Alliance characters and a scaling back of the faction system. To me, that is much better than having slightly different flavors of the same race separated by expensive race change fees. My concern is not for limiting what is available to the Alliance or the Horde, it is for increasing the total number of options, particularly those available to each race option through the barber shop. Since Blizzard also shot down the cross faction idea at this year's Blizzcon, so I maintain that the best option for both high elf fans and the game as a whole would be something like half elves or night elf highborne, to allow for similar features with a model that is not based on a Blood Elf.

There will probably be some elements (like darker eyelines) which still remind others that you are playing a Void elf. Besides their racial proc basically gives them Shadowform so in combat it'd be very difficult to mistake them for Blood elves.

Yeah, I agree that that's a possibility. I'm not sure how far they'd go in that direction, but anything showing some sign of corruption is probably on the table. That said, I think any developments in that direction will be limited on the basis that it will make them appear more like Blood Elves, rather than pushing the fantasy in the direction that makes Void Elves unlike any other race.

[Obelisk Kai]

There's a difference between someone contributing to make something be added to the game vs someone who constantly just looks for new ways to say "no" yet can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out.

See the thing is, whatever you're referring to as "refuse to accept what has been answered" isn't true at all. Otherwise mods would close this thread, just like if someone made a thread with any more shadowlands leaks it would get shut down because we know what entails the shadowlands and it's not anything like Sylvanas taking over Stormwind.

There's a difference between the two, and the developers haven't outright denied High Elves in some form happening on Alliance the way they deny those flying enthusiasts that wish to fly at the beginning of expansions and don't want Pathfinder.

Framing the pro-argument as a positive contribution while the anti-argument is 'just looking for new ways to say no' underlies the subtle attitudinal issue this debate triggers. I am sure that the pro High Elf community sees itself as a positive effort, determined to right a developer wrong and ensure that the classic line up of Alliance races is one day realised. In the service of that effort they form a community, they generate fan art, they submit feedback on the forums and they put up with a bunch of negative nay-sayers whose sole motive is to make them miserable and to enjoy that misery. Still, as the cause is virtuous, they will persist until their final success.

The problem with this viewpoint is that it's actually extremely limited. The pro High Elf community's grievance is borne from the same place so many aggrieved fandoms have been born from, that the franchise you are invested in has not developed along the ways you have wished and as such, it has somehow betrayed you. We see it in Star Trek, we see it in Star Wars, we see it everywhere and Warcraft is not immune with countless topics complaining about how Blizzard is deliberately making the game worse, which in many cases is the anger that the company in question isn't specifically addressing your particular pet grievance.

The story of the high elves of the Warcraft universe is that they left the Alliance, were almost wiped out by the Scourge (led by a former Alliance Prince), renamed themselves the Blood Elves, betrayed by an Alliance army who were actively trying to get them killed, permanently left the Alliance and eventually invited into the Horde. The pro High Elf grievance is that this is the accepted story of the franchise and not the version the pro High Elf community wants, which is that the real high elves are a tiny handful of malcontents who didn't go along with the vast majority of their people.

The pro High Elf community regularly rejects every answer given by Blizzard that goes against their version of Warcraft being recognized. From developer commentary that directly answered the request for high elves, to an emphasis on the importance of the faction system, to the creation of the Void Elves as a compromise, you are in fact told time and time again the answer on this matter and everyone outside the pro High Elf community seemingly can see what Blizzard is saying.

That they do not want to add high elves to the Alliance. That they value the distinctiveness between the factions more. That they are satisfied that a High Elf option exists in game. And that any pity or obligation they may have felt towards the Alliance was absolved with the addition of the Void Elves. They have listened to the far more vocal, far more numerous anti-pathfinding crowd for years now and they haven't budged. Just as pro High Elfers alone don't get to determine Void Elves aren't a compromise (when it's obvious that is their sole reason for even being added), so pro High Elfers alone don't get to say 'we've not been answered'. You've been answered far more often than was necessary on this topic.

P.S. As for the mods not closing this thread despite the topic almost certainly being done, whilst I can't presume to speak for the mods I would assume that a single thread to contain it is preferable to having five or six on the go at once.

As I said, because more people care about the aesthetics being there. As evidenced by the reveal of the new customizations coming to races and people aren't in an uproar over "omg we're not getting Wildhammer as an Allied Race " nor are people complaining that their desert looking troll comes from the jungle and will almost assuredly always be referenced as "we Darkspear" whenever their troll overlords speak to them. Almost no one (because I know there's always 1 person who will do anything possible) is going on a forum tirade that these new troll tribes aren't going to have specific racials or jokes or voice sounds because those things are vastly more minor than the aesthetic the model itself carries.

This is why I said before that we didn't have a huge uproar over Mag'har being from WoD vs Outland. Did it have some complainers? Yes, but nothing like how much shit Void Elves get nor how much people complain about Nightborne not looking like their NPC models for the playable model.

See everyone makes a little make-believe whenever they play their character, but there are certain features that are obviously more in your face than others. A Blood Elf getting blue eyes/hair will probably have people assuming it's a DK (just as current status quo), but a Blood Elf with dark brown skin is going to shatter any illusion about being a "fair-skinned elf" despite being described as such by Ion.

- - - Updated - - -

And with that new look of dark brown skin for a Blood Elf, it will enable people to RP however they wish to explain the new look, that is my point of differentiation.

The look enables the broader RP, the other way around as you’re trying to claim isn’t broad. Your way serves to explain the current status quo.

But all the new looks coming are serving to shake up the status quo, this has been my point the entire time and why I find your reasoning faulty.

As the overall customizations coming shake up the status quo (no more having undead that will have armor broken at certain parts to expose bones, having different ethnicities of humans, having different troll tribes rather than just a specific kind of jungle troll tribe, having different dwarf clans rather than just one).

Now you can always hearken back to believing “they will only do this with original races and not Allied Races” but it would just have me repeat my ‘being treated as second class’ commentary.

Not just that, but they haven’t mentioned any inkling of not shaking up the status quo for Allied Races. Ironically the only statement we’ve had regarding customization for an Allied Race was that it is possible they could get customization shaking up their status quo (Afrasiabi’s comment on possibility of High Elf skins coming to Void Elves). No mention though of your argument, “they will bring customization to these Allied Races that will reinforce their status quo looks.”

Once again, your reasoning does not make sense and is overly reliant on Afrasiabi's quote. I am not sure how often we have to go over this but a.) it wasn't a promise and b.) he spent far longer talking about forum etiquette. They created Void Elves specifically not to infringe on the thematic and aethetic integrity of the Blood Elves. Much as Ion mused openly about High Elves in 2014 before he and the rest sat down and thought things through (leading to Void Elves), so Afrasiabi's off hand comment only means the possibility exists, just as the possibility of high elves was opened up in 2014 for a brief moment until we learned otherwise. It is likelier that the same considerations which led them to create Void Elves, rather than High Elves, will still be brought up when Void Elves get their customization pass and that the result will likely be the same, that Void Elves will be kept distinct from Blood Elves, that they will remain their own thing.

I also believe there is enough feedback on the official forums to show that the skin types you are agitating for for Void Elves wouldn't be enough for the hardcore pro High Elf community, precisely for the reasons I have raised. That the specific origin and racials of Void Elves render it impossible to pretend to be anything other than Void Elf. Anyone who plays cannot and never will be able to pretend they were never transformed by the Void. Roleplaying only works when the background selected for your character is believable. You can roleplay your Void Elf any way you want, so long as you keep the one fixed point that all Void Elves share, that they were transformed by the void, now have a connection to the void and wield void energies. Even IF Void Elves get acceptable skin tones, roleplaying as a High Elf will not work because they won't be a traditional High Elf. They will always be a Void Elf and roleplaying can only exist in the parameters set by being a Void Elf. You could roleplay as a Silver Covenant member who went through the process of transformation, but you can't roleplay as one who never did.

[Shakana]

There's a difference between someone contributing to make something be added to the game vs someone who constantly just looks for new ways to say "no" yet can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out.

I'm going to put the hood on myself on this one: (i recommend you to read all if you're going to read, because i'm not just saying one little thing that is extended)

I don't even mind High elves. My actual question comes to: Why you come here daily? Try find something to convince blizzard? Because you say this "can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out", while blizzard literally replies you with void elves in the game, and you're still here everyday, and can't stay away. You say no, no, no. You keep trying and trying. (I'm saying "you" in general).

Those people come here and points out this, as i did, and what we get is someone thinking we want this thread to die out. When in reality, we are just like "i think you're wasting your time". We are not here to make the thread die. It won't die, as everyone knows a mega thread with so much pages won't ever just die like that, as people will keep to bring this up. I don't think anyone believes this thread will die anytime soon, if it didn't with void elves, won't surely die now.

All i want to say is i think everyone can be here regardless, discussing what they want and think, just like you are.

This being said, i come here and i say what i think. I gave too ideas how to introduce them. Changing even the way they look, just like Nozdormu. I also thought about High Elves being introduced in a way, that they would forgive the blood elves, but still join alliance. Even more now we are more or less in terms of "peace", they can have a change of heart.


As long as i don't get divided people with blue eyes on blood elves customization, and arguing, i'm ok with it. I just really hope you get what you want, but not on the cost of people arguing.

For void elves to have high elf customization, they would need to have also blood elves, because they are made of both. And that would be a problem between factions story-wise, means they would need to add aswell void elves as blood elves.

Or just hope for blizzard to do it once and for all, and add them with different features. Just like nightborne, they don't look too night elvish. They have their original appearance. And body stance. Just got the emotes sounds, and the same dance, and skeleton.

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP

This whole portion ignores that there are High Elves that exist as part of the Alliance today. Who have had more screen time than any other unplayable NPC race that is associated with one of the two greater factions (Alliance or Horde).

Saying the High Elf story is continued to Blood Elves and solely ending there while ignoring the High Elves on Alliance, as well as the Void Elves now on Alliance (who carry all of Blood Elf lore along with High Elf lore) just shows your bias and non-objectivity while trying to act as if the pro High Elf side are the only ones being biased.

Also, nobody is quitting the game over not getting playable High Elves, so this isn't anywhere near Star Trek or Star Wars or WoW people talking about how Blizzard is driving the game into the ground. Are there some hyperbolists on the pro High Elf side? Sure. But by and large they are the minority.

Just as I'm sure you could find >1 people that love and appreciate and agree with every single decision that Blizzard or any other company has made or makes. Focusing on the existence of those few, while ignoring the greater majority isn't how game development works. As we see repeatedly with the development of WoW, its additions are based on what is the majority liked. Do Blizzard sometimes go too far? Yes, absolutely, but they also bring it back relatively quickly as well.

The bottom line though is that they base it all from player feedback that is the majority. Hence why you see a very scant few complaining about "going back to class identity" when they enjoyed spec identity. But we know that class identity is what was most asked for to be brought back.

And concerning High Elves, what is and will continue to show more is that there's a specific fantasy that exists on the Alliance as of even this current expansion which there's a large amount of people for. This High Elf community is the largest compared to other race requests, and I already made the arguments that Blizzard tends to go by majority feedback. It will look more and more frank when the only big thing being asked for race customization wise is High Elves.

P.S. As for the mods not closing this thread despite the topic almost certainly being done, whilst I can't presume to speak for the mods I would assume that a single thread to contain it is preferable to having five or six on the go at once.

Like I said, no one's going to make a thread with blatantly false information that's been confirmed false and expect it to be open. The number of threads on a specific topic doesn't matter, it is that there hasn't been a definite answer given that High Elves on Alliance are never going to happen.

Once again, your reasoning does not make sense and is overly reliant on Afrasiabi's quote. I am not sure how often we have to go over this but a.) it wasn't a promise and b.) he spent far longer talking about forum etiquette.

I think you should re-watch that question and its answer. He did not "spend far longer on forum etiquette" during the response to the Void Elf question. Prior to the Void Elf question there was another question that was asking about forum feedback which is where he spent a long time talking about the forum etiquette.

But his High Elf skin answer to Void Elves question was literally 3 short points 1) It's possible 2) Don't give up hope 3) Be respectful about it during posting. The long discussion of forum etiquette occurs almost 5 mins before the Void Elf High Elf skin question and then immediately after Afrasiabi's 3 main part reponse they dive into asking about Heritage armor unlocks.

And the "be respectful forum post" bit is certainly because there's a lot of toxicity coming from both sides on this topic. No one side is innocent, both are toxic about it. Blood Elf players have some imo pretty shitty/lame reasons for trying to lock out customization options from the Alliance players and Void Elf players and have had to put up with way more troll responses/comments than other Allied Race threads have had to, which in turn makes people suspect if they're actually trying to have a discussion with merits or just here to shit on people's parade. We can see that multiple times within this own thread, where there's often new accounts/passerby who just leave a troll-y comment and get flagged or banned for it more often from the anti-side. From the pro-side there is some bans/flags too but it's more due to people having lost patience to deal with trolls. Something that's perfectly acceptable and why I more often am preaching to just ignore people not looking to have an actual discussion.

Trying to "out-troll" one another doesn't achieve anything. And just causes headaches for forum moderators, which is most likely why Alex made that comment, cuz he understands the specific vitriol that comes with the High Elf topic compared to others. Like look at the recent datamine of Blood Elf DK eye change and people who came in here to troll "lol there's your high elves" and how rightly they were dealt with.

You do not see the same level thing occurring with those who wanted Vulpera or San'layn or Ogres or Gilbins. But for some reason there's a lot more trolls for the High Elf topic and thus there's a lot more people who take the bait.

- - - Updated - - -

SNIP

I think you're grouping too many people together. This thread has many different kinds of individuals and groups. There are:

1) People that want High Elves on Alliance
2) People that want High Elves through Void Elf skins
3) People that don't want either of the above
4) People that are trolls to the topic
5) People that say their piece and never come back (like yes for High Elves or no for High Elves)
6) People having conversations/debates with each other
7) People who have other ways to get a sort of High Elf (like Half Elf) that isn't 1) or 2)

Also, not many people come here daily, sometimes the thread doesn't have anyone talking in it for days or weeks or months. It's just when something related to it picks up, I think one of the more recent ones was seeing the High Elf ballistas at the end of the War Campaign in 8.2.5. Before that this thread wasn't getting much activity.

[Obelisk Kai]

This whole portion ignores that there are High Elves that exist as part of the Alliance today. Who have had more screen time than any other unplayable NPC race that is associated with one of the two greater factions (Alliance or Horde).

There is no way of saying without being blunt.

Nobody beyond the pro High Elf community cares about that. It is an irrelevant factor. Not only did Blizzard make Void Elves rather than give the Alliance High Elves, they even sourced those Void Elves from former Blood Elves. All Blizzard cared about is there is a traditional High Elf option available in the Blood Elves, they regard that as forming a part of the faction distinctiveness of the Horde, and they threw the Alliance a bone with a race that is pretty close to what they wanted but not exactly.

But all that stuff about them being part of the Alliance? The creation of Void Elves tells you all you need to know about that. So yes, it ignores those High Elven exiles aligned to the Alliance. Seemingly everyone else is, I just don't want to feel left out.

Saying the High Elf story is continued to Blood Elves and solely ending there while ignoring the High Elves on Alliance, as well as the Void Elves now on Alliance (who carry all of Blood Elf lore along with High Elf lore) just shows your bias and non-objectivity while trying to act as if the pro High Elf side are the only ones being biased.

Call it bias if you wish, but it is just the game maintaining the status quo. There was a far more visible Void Elf presence within BFA than you like to admit, and the fact I have seen people getting excited over the addition of one or two high elf npcs at a given time is a sign of desperation. Void Elves ARE the High Elves of the Alliance. Void Elves ARE the future of the High Elves within the Alliance. Part of the reason I have dropped the term Alliance High Elves in favour of High Elf exiles is that Alliance High Elf is also a synonym for Void Elves, as unlike the Dalaran dwelling high elf exiles, the Void Elves are unquestionably a part of the Alliance.

Also, nobody is quitting the game over not getting playable High Elves, so this isn't anywhere near Star Trek or Star Wars or WoW people talking about how Blizzard is driving the game into the ground. Are there some hyperbolists on the pro High Elf side? Sure. But by and large they are the minority.


Just as I'm sure you could find >1 people that love and appreciate and agree with every single decision that Blizzard or any other company has made or makes. Focusing on the existence of those few, while ignoring the greater majority isn't how game development works. As we see repeatedly with the development of WoW, its additions are based on what is the majority liked. Do Blizzard sometimes go too far? Yes, absolutely, but they also bring it back relatively quickly as well.

The bottom line though is that they base it all from player feedback that is the majority. Hence why you see a very scant few complaining about "going back to class identity" when they enjoyed spec identity. But we know that class identity is what was most asked for to be brought back.

Several people over the course of this debate have said they have quit the game because High Elves weren't announced for the Alliance. But that isn't the point, you don't invalidate a comparison by attempting to make them match exactly. The point is that the complaint of the pro High Elfer community is that Warcraft has unfolded in a way contrary to the way they wished it would and they have been very vocal in trying to argue it should go in a way more to their liking, which is a similar approach taken by some commentators within other fandoms who are unhappy at how their favourite franchise has developed or unfolded.

TAnd concerning High Elves, what is and will continue to show more is that there's a specific fantasy that exists on the Alliance as of even this current expansion which there's a large amount of people for. This High Elf community is the largest compared to other race requests, and I already made the arguments that Blizzard tends to go by majority feedback. It will look more and more frank when the only big thing being asked for race customization wise is High Elves.

On the specific point of High Elf exiles within the Alliance, particular emphasis has been placed on the importance of keeping the factions separate and of course, keeping the factions distinct. High Elven exiles are ignored because making them playable violates the design goal of keeping the factions distinct. Every avenue towards that outcome has been methodically shut down as this debate has progressed. Will they be a core race? No they will not. That's what the vocal high elf fan base wanted, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Will they be an allied race? No they will not. That was what the vocal High Elf fan base switched to once they became aware of the concept, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Now we reach the absolute dregs, a customization option for Void Elves. This is probably what a lot of pro High Elfers would like, the ability to look like a Blood Elf, but what you cannot do is pretend to be a High Elf if that happens. You will always be a Void Elf.

Like I said, no one's going to make a thread with blatantly false information that's been confirmed false and expect it to be open. The number of threads on a specific topic doesn't matter, it is that there hasn't been a definite answer given that High Elves on Alliance are never going to happen.

If you can't interpret the two occasions they were publicly ruled out within the past two years and the multiple occasions they've reaffirmed the importance of the faction system AND that racial diversity is an integral part of that faction system then I think you are allowing your hope for a definitive statement to overrule your common sense.

I think you should re-watch that question and its answer. He did not "spend far longer on forum etiquette" during the response to the Void Elf question. Prior to the Void Elf question there was another question that was asking about forum feedback which is where he spent a long time talking about the forum etiquette.

But his High Elf skin answer to Void Elves question was literally 3 short points 1) It's possible 2) Don't give up hope 3) Be respectful about it during posting. The long discussion of forum etiquette occurs almost 5 mins before the Void Elf High Elf skin question and then immediately after Afrasiabi's 3 main part reponse they dive into asking about Heritage armor unlocks.

And the "be respectful forum post" bit is certainly because there's a lot of toxicity coming from both sides on this topic. No one side is innocent, both are toxic about it. Blood Elf players have some imo pretty shitty/lame reasons for trying to lock out customization options from the Alliance players and Void Elf players and have had to put up with way more troll responses/comments than other Allied Race threads have had to, which in turn makes people suspect if they're actually trying to have a discussion with merits or just here to shit on people's parade. We can see that multiple times within this own thread, where there's often new accounts/passerby who just leave a troll-y comment and get flagged or banned for it more often from the anti-side. From the pro-side there is some bans/flags too but it's more due to people having lost patience to deal with trolls. Something that's perfectly acceptable and why I more often am preaching to just ignore people not looking to have an actual discussion.

The timestamps helpfully listed in the comments of that video show that he spent 26 seconds on the question and answer. The question began at 24:18, the answer began at 24:33, his response is 'there's always a chance', completed by 24:34 (3 seconds), don't give up hope which was completed by 24:36 (2 seconds)and the remaining four seconds given over to being respectful about making posts.

After re-watching it and parsing simply to respond you, I find there is even less here than I recalled. This is incredibly flimsy ground to pin your hopes on.

And the 'shitty reasons' are our desire that our chosen race is treated with as much respect as any other race in the game, and that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race rather than attempting to get High Elves through the back door. Some players respect Blizzard's design and narrative choices and if the only way to play a traditional high elf is on the Horde, then that is where you should come to play a traditional high elf.

Trying to "out-troll" one another doesn't achieve anything. And just causes headaches for forum moderators, which is most likely why Alex made that comment, cuz he understands the specific vitriol that comes with the High Elf topic compared to others. Like look at the recent datamine of Blood Elf DK eye change and people who came in here to troll "lol there's your high elves" and how rightly they were dealt with.

Blood Elf Death Knights ARE High Elves as Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes and I would reckon the chances are fairly good that they will, that will be an interesting day in this topic.

You do not see the same level thing occurring with those who wanted Vulpera or San'layn or Ogres or Gilbins. But for some reason there's a lot more trolls for the High Elf topic and thus there's a lot more people who take the bait.

If you are mystified as to why this particular request generates this much hostility then you clearly aren't paying attention. You are attempting to duplicate a core race of the Horde faction so you can play that race without having to be Horde. And I don't really think you should respond to this with a list of all the ways you think the High Elf exiles as different. As I said at the very beginning, your perception as to how they are different is at odds with the miniscule level of differentiation there actually is. The best I've heard rustled up is the blue eyes and there's an extremely good chance Blood Elves will be getting that option.

[Ignaz]

I do believe that Allied races will get additional customization, but uncorrupted skin options for Void Elves come with these faction issues they keep bringing up. There may be a few high elves on the Alliance, but as long as Blizzard maintains the positions that playable races should be exclusive to their respective factions and that Blood Elves are not corrupted significantly by definition, I don't see why they would make that exception. High elves may have been requested for a very long time, but they're also the Horde's most popular race. If there is one race that would threaten faction balance, it is surely the most popular one. After all, that was why the Horde got high elves in the first place.

I don't mind ideas like half elf customizations for humans, or some options for night elf highborne who never left Kalimdor, for some examples. Those options would be supported by a unique position in the story to make them appear visually more similar to a high elf, without being identical to a Blood Elves. Uncorrupted Void Elves, however, are literally just Blood Elves on the Alliance that can't be paladins or demon hunters. In my opinion, we already have an uncorrupted high elf race, and I don't think the factions should be used as an excuse for duplicating races or for splitting the customization options a race has available into multiple otherwise identical races. Highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei are both unreasonably shallow as races, and I don't think that's the right direction for the game. Antlers or shiny tattoos should not cost $25 for a race change, let alone putting them on the opposite faction, like some suggest as a way to make high elves different from Blood Elves.

It's not even an issue of "Why should the Horde share?" it's an issue of "Why should the game have fewer overall options and factions that are less distinct?" I'd like to see people get some options that they feel comfortable rping high elves with, but copying Blood Elves over to the Alliance is not a good option, and neither is re-imagining the high elf model or customization options to arbitrarily make them physically different from Blood Elves. However, I know that many people in this thread are not willing to accept anything other than an "Alliance high elf," so I don't know how Blizzard could give those people what they want without sacrificing something that they consider more important.

In my opinion, faction identity was destroyed at the exact moment allied races were announced. Everything that made '' unique '' a large part of the races was no longer. And what violated that identity more was the integration of Void Elves and Nightborne Elves

TLDR: faction balance and exclusivity are important to WoW, at least for the devs' vision of the game, and it is more interesting to have distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options than a higher number of very similar races with fewer options for customization.

or you could have both

[Ielenia]

TLDR: faction balance and exclusivity are important to WoW, at least for the devs' vision of the game, and it is more interesting to have distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options than a higher number of very similar races with fewer options for customization.

I think this ship was put in the water with the pandaren, and then set to sail with the allied races. Now races don't have to be 'unique' or independent from the existing races to be viable.