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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Ah but you forgot the two things it actually does do, and are really all that conservatives care about:

    1) Make liberals angry

    2) show “brown people” they’re not wanted.

    It’s entirely immaterial that the reason it makes liberals angry is because it’s a horrendously stupid waste of time and money, or that the aforementioned “brown people” could do any of the also aforementioned methods of circumnavigating the wall; what matters is that liberals are angry and immigrants are told to stay away.

    And for that result, no amount of taxpayer money is too great for the republicans to flush down the crapper.
    Do you really believe this..?

    What if I told you that reality tends to differ from the thirty second sound bites you are shown on television?

    Look most people want to do what they think is right. Some people don't think that making lives harder for the poor in order to have a strange boarder less country is worth it. There are other better ways to treat this problem but there is zero political will on either side to explore any option beyond the use of force.

    Ideally we would have such massive fines for companies caught hiring illegal immigrants that it would be utterly destructive for any business or corporation to do.

  2. #462
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by There and back again View Post
    Do you really believe this..?

    What if I told you that reality tends to differ from the thirty second sound bites you are shown on television?

    Look most people want to do what they think is right. Some people don't think that making lives harder for the poor in order to have a strange boarder less country is worth it. There are other better ways to treat this problem but there is zero political will on either side to explore any option beyond the use of force.

    Ideally we would have such massive fines for companies caught hiring illegal immigrants that it would be utterly destructive for any business or corporation to do.
    Regarding the bold; basically no one is arguing for open borders. It's a right-wing meme that doesn't have any real basis in actual policy.


  3. #463
    So, not only have they now illegally entered a nation with out permission, they also committed criminal damage?

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by dunhildas View Post
    So, not only have they now illegally entered a nation with out permission, they also committed criminal damage?
    Make them legal, problem solved.

    Freedom is awesome.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    While I haven't been to Japan, I have been to Spain, France, Italy, and Greece. None of them were hostile to me for having difficulties with the primary language there.
    I've been to Japan and while there were a lot of people that I couldn't communicate well with, pretty much everyone was kind and helpful despite my lack of grasp of the language. Worldwide, people are generally kind and welcoming of visitors.

    Of course, there's a big difference between visiting somewhere and not learning the local language and moving somewhere with the expectation that people will accommodate you. Moving somewhere and expecting a permanent version of the accommodation granted to visitors seems pretty awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    We're getting pretty far afield of the actual point of discussion here, people.

    That being... the abject failure of yet another one of Trump's promises. We should focus on that.
    Do we have any kind of numbers on border crossings? They probably exist somewhere (at least estimates), which seems like it'd be a lot more relevant than whether some individuals manage to cut through or climb over a "wall" or fence. On a small, local level, people purchase fencing knowing perfectly well that it's not actually all that hard to cut through or climb over chainlink on the basis that having a fence in place prevents some intrusions. Does that work on a motivated intruder? Probably not so much since bolt cutters aren't a very hard item to acquire. To know whether this particular fence is a failure or not, I'd want to know whether the number of crossings changed, not whether it's literally a physically impenetrable barrier.

    Of course, you're right that Trump essentially promised a physically impenetrable barrier.

  6. #466
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Migrants easily cut through Trump's wall with a $100 saw

    But yeah, totally worth stealing billions from the military to pay for this exercise in futility.
    $13 billion Gerald Ford class carrier can be sunk with a few $10,000 missiles, are you sure giving the military those billions is a good idea?
    Last edited by Yadryonych; 2019-11-16 at 06:29 PM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    $13 billion Gerald Ford class carrier can be sunk with a few $10,000 missiles, are you sure giving the military those billions is a good idea?
    Provided those missiles (which cost more than your quote) could somehow get through the air and missile defense escorts and fighter screen (unlikely), any modern US aircraft carrier could be pummeled and still sustain flight operations.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ier-being-sunk

    US carriers are extremely fast, and extremely heavily armored.

    Of course the best way to avoid that is just to send long range stealth aircraft and cruise missiles to destroy launchers before... you know... they launch, and keep the carrier far away and move it in later.

    So good luck, Russian. You'll need it.

  8. #468
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    So good luck, Russian. You'll need it.
    More like good like USian with finally getting it going. Keep trying your best
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...problems-66366

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    More like good like USian with finally getting it going. Keep trying your best
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...problems-66366
    https://www.naval-technology.com/new...-plant-issues/

    Fixed.

    First in class ship has first in class issues.

    When was the last time Russia built any substantial ocean going ship by the way?

    Were you born yet?

  10. #470
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    When was the last time Russia built any substantial ocean going ship by the way?
    No it was decided that building a one-way cruise ship of mass suicide is better to stay a usa privilege, so we amass these babies instead

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    No it was decided that building a one-way cruise ship of mass suicide is better to stay a usa privilege, so we amass these babies instead
    Another decade, another Russian Super Weapon of Doom. I can't Bulava what I'm reading. You must think we're Su-47ckers. Seriously, this gimmick you Russians have done since the 1990s makes a boring SATAN-IIrday even more Borei-ng. What's the Armata with just accepting your Status-6 as middle rank power?

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    We should stop going off topic.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2019-11-16 at 09:38 PM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I like how close together these are. This really speaks volumes to the continued competence of the people doing engineering tasks here. These are immensely technical systems, speaking from personal experience these sorts of systems are challenging to build, maintain, and upgrade. If someone's argument hinges on "ha, something went wrong!", they probably have an axe to grind rather than a serious argument.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I like how close together these are. This really speaks volumes to the continued competence of the people doing engineering tasks here. These are immensely technical systems, speaking from personal experience these sorts of systems are challenging to build, maintain, and upgrade. If someone's argument hinges on "ha, something went wrong!", they probably have an axe to grind rather than a serious argument.
    So this is an important thimg you noted to the military, to infrastructure in general and even to the border.

    The USS Gerald R Ford class and Littoral Combat Ships (Independence and Freedom Classes), along with the F-35, are the first fully integrated combat vehicles/vessels. I don't think laymen at large understand the sigificance of that (I'm sure you do, so pardon my forthcoming elaboration for the benefit of others).

    In Star Trek, the crew of the Enterprise being able to ask (1) a main computer that was (2) the central operating machine for the entire ship about (3) the status of any ship subsystem and (4) dynamically allocate resources within the ship, was a hilariously futuristic, but extremely subtle part of Star Trek's futurism until very recently. "Reroute emergency power from fusion reactors 1 and 2 to the turbo lifts", "how many people are in deck 14 section 3?". So much of Star Trek's ship-centric technobabble spoken by people looking at computer screens or talking to the computer represents the assumption of a vehicle as fully integrated as an organism.

    When you twist your ankle, you know it. You feel pain. You will then adjust how you move to compensate to minimize the pain. Up until now, military platforms didn't do that. Doing that requires a vehicle or vessel network of sensors, and a computer designed to have, for lack of a better term, a "sense of self". Many ships and aircraft have had computers. But they'd have the independent computers for independent functions. There were highly integrated ships, like Aegis Destroyers. But they weren't fully integrated, with one computer that basically ran the subsystems of ships the way Windows runs its subsystems and apps.

    Even the concept of a ship computer or aircraft computer with an API is revolution. The F-35 is the first aircraft with a legitimate plug-and-play API. Integrating new missiles on F-15s and F-16s, and even F-22 is a major ordeal. It's a major programming / implementation program every time. Adding new weapons to the F-35 is basically like making a more sophisticated version of a WoW Mod.

    In military technology circles, broadly speaking, this is informally called software-driven driven design. It replaces the modular bolt-on or completely integrated but independent subsystems of previous generations.

    To extend the Star Trek reference, the main computer on every starfleet vessel was pretty much the same. Same voice. Same interface (LCARS). Same basic computer ran everything from a 90 year old Miranda class in the late 24th century to a state of the art Sovereign-class. Sure the computers had more power and more capabilities, but it was basically the difference between two Windows computers, or an iPhone 6S and an Iphone 11 Pro. That is not true in the US Military (or any other), that has has no fleet-wide "Ship Operating System" or modular "Ship Main Computer". or Aircraft centric "fighter OS". That is something that is emerging over time through the Ford class and others, and in aircraft, through the F-35. The upcoming B-21 raider, for example, will be highly derived from the F-35 in terms of internal systems.

    This fully integrated, software driven approach is mirrored in cars, which have started to do the same in the last few years, most of all in Tesla. And it previews what should be the focus of urban upgrades when we finally get off our ass and do infrastructure building. "Smart Cities", a software driven approach to cities with a city-wide OS that runs it, is a tantalizing idea. Same with the border (another reason why a wall of concrete is so stupid). A border of sensors that tied into a computer network with a comprehensive "sense of self" would be cheaper to develop, build, maintain and more effective.

    But then again, I shouldn't be surprised Trump and his supporters want a big concrete monument to White Supremacy. After all, this is the guy who within 3 months of becoming president starts tweeting and saying "we're going to build STEAM for our carriers" or something like that.

    Donald Trump's navy would just be full of American made steel battleships.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I've been to Japan and while there were a lot of people that I couldn't communicate well with, pretty much everyone was kind and helpful despite my lack of grasp of the language. Worldwide, people are generally kind and welcoming of visitors.

    Of course, there's a big difference between visiting somewhere and not learning the local language and moving somewhere with the expectation that people will accommodate you. Moving somewhere and expecting a permanent version of the accommodation granted to visitors seems pretty awful.
    Eh, there's a lot of foreigners in South Korea who can't speak Korean and have no intention of learning the language, speaking English to everyone. People will just ignore them if they don't know English or can't be bothered to speak English or do like some places do here, ban foreigners from even entering the establishment.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2019-11-17 at 05:20 PM.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If you want to build a good border wall, one needs to use the Berlin Wall model, including armed guards and land mines. Anything else is just a minor hindrance.
    Funny you mention that. It still had like a 5% failure rate and was only 96 miles. Let's be real our border is what 2000 or so miles? It won't work since every inch of it can't be manned all the time.

  16. #476
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenlo View Post
    Funny you mention that. It still had like a 5% failure rate and was only 96 miles. Let's be real our border is what 2000 or so miles? It won't work since every inch of it can't be manned all the time.
    The number of successful crossings of the Wall in 1980-88 was 10% of when it first went up. If the same number of successful crossings per mile of wall, less than 7000 per year would get over it. That would still constitute a significant success.

    Plus, as I pointed out many times, I only stated what level of wall would be needed to actually secure the border, not that I was advocating it.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    $13 billion Gerald Ford class carrier can be sunk with a few $10,000 missiles, are you sure giving the military those billions is a good idea?
    My favourite hot take so far lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Of course, there's a big difference between visiting somewhere and not learning the local language and moving somewhere with the expectation that people will accommodate you. Moving somewhere and expecting a permanent version of the accommodation granted to visitors seems pretty awful.
    How's your Cherokee coming along? Sioux? Navajo perhaps?

    It's funny really, it's always US people bitching about people not learning the language, when the US is one of the most linguistically homogeneous countries on Earth. Most countries in the Old World deal with multilingual populations as a matter of course. It's monolingual Anglophone countries that are the weird outliers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    That would be ridiculous. Not having an official language makes more sense here since this is the "melting pot."
    The problem is when you work in an establishment where everything is advertised in English, the items are only listed in English etc and the workers only speak Spanish.

    Then there is a major barrier.
    If there's a significant Spanish-speaking population in that area, why haven't the locals learned Spanish in schools? Seems like a failure of education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    When was the last time Russia built any substantial ocean going ship by the way?
    The rusted hulk of a Kuznetsov-class carrier the Chinese swindled them out of, that is now the pride of the Chinese navy? Lel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The number of successful crossings of the Wall in 1980-88 was 10% of when it first went up. If the same number of successful crossings per mile of wall, less than 7000 per year would get over it. That would still constitute a significant success.

    Plus, as I pointed out many times, I only stated what level of wall would be needed to actually secure the border, not that I was advocating it.
    Fair enough. The point I was trying to make and probably failing was even with the Berlin Wall there was still a 5-10% failure rate. Given that 100 miles isn't a huge amount to patrol.
    There is no way a border wall would come close to only having a 10% failure rate it's just too much to cover and walls alone arent a huge problem for people to get over

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There are people who don't want to bother learning the local language
    In fact the problem is pretty much the opposite - the US is far behind the rest of the world in learning a language other than English. Something like 75-95% of the population is English-only.

    You literally speak the least threatened language on Earth, in one of the linguistically least diverse regions. So this kind of bitching just comes across as bigotry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    How's your Cherokee coming along? Sioux? Navajo perhaps?

    It's funny really, it's always US people bitching about people not learning the language, when the US is one of the most linguistically homogeneous countries on Earth. Most countries in the Old World deal with multilingual populations as a matter of course. It's monolingual Anglophone countries that are the weird outliers.
    I don't think I'm ever going to quite be able to grasp how folks on your side of this issue think that the lesson modern Americans should take from the Native American experience with the European influx into the Americas is that no one should have any concerns about newcomers with different cultures.

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