Bastion is the real hell

[Flarelaine]

I agree. Bastion is death of the soul.

It's the death of the ego, actually, and Earth has major religions claiming that is a good thing.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I hope not, in general, from the WoW story, Death have been one of the aspect that i have found the most interesting, so i'm quite intriged by this expansion, thankfully if i remember correctly, Blizzard did mention that we will know more of the Emerald Dream and the Drust through the new Night elf like zone. ( i forgot the name), but sadly, in the end, there's a lot of stuff to be explored, and that alone makes me think that many will be left untouched T.T

I mean, the Shamanism part is really sort of damning. The quests we do, it seems like Orcish ancestors... well they don't permanently because blue humanoids, or skeltons or whatever else you can become. I'm sure they will get away with being ambiguous on things like this though. But it should follow that if a Tauren goes to this area, an Orc would as well.

[Omedon]

We saw similar themes with T’Paartos and the light. Haven’t read the thread, don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but yeah, the dark side of many of the “lawful good” entities in Warcraft has been heartless assimilation to the collective. I love it!

[Aucald]

I, personally, hope that we get some explanation for the afterlife we already know of:

-Emerald Dream (we know souls of some creatures do end up there)

-End up explaining the Drust story and their "afterlife"

-Connection of Hellheim and Halls of Valor (as far as i know, Hellheim is part of the Shadowlnads unlike Halls of Valor)

-Where do souls Orcs end up normally? as far as we know, contacting the elders (mainly shaman elders) was part of the Orchish community, so where do this soul end? same place as Draka? does not sound too... "shamanistic" to say the least

-Hakar where are you?!

-The Arakkocra and their ability to walk through the realm of the dead, where they do go through? the place they walk through seems to be full of horrors and questionable spirits, do they walk through the Maw?

- The Light and the Void, is their "afterlife" connected to the Shadowlands? or its completely separated like the Demons?

-Shadowlands connected through time and space? are WoD characters here?

The Ardenweald appears to be more or less a shadow of the Emerald Dream, with the official material describing it as the Emerald Dream in its "twilight," reflecting death instead of life. It's the prime destination for those souls who were in tune with the nature world, a place where Druids and Shaman might naturally be drawn. Some of the souls who find themselves there give up their anima to Wild Gods and other greater entities of the natural world so that they can be reborn once more, and others become part of the Ardenweald itself, or else dwell within it as the Night Fae. Unsure how the Drust are connected to the Ardenweald, but it's described as a deceptively dangerous place - so it's likely that Drust locales represent its darker natural aspects.

Helheim is likely a pocket dimension within the greater Shadowlands, as a few places we've seen (such as Bwonsamdi's temple-complex in Nazmir) appear to be or touch on. The Halls of Valor are an entirely artificial construct-realm, akin to the Elemental Planes, and so are not part of the Shadowlands proper.

Orcs are probably strewn about the Shadowlands in various locales. I don't think the realms really concentrate beings in the way a lot of people seem to be implying - they're more about ideals and personal ethics as opposed to racial credos and the like. Shamanic Orcs would likely be drawn to the Ardenweald, though some might also feel the pull of Bastion, or even Maldraxxus. Quite a few might be in Revendreth, in needed of rectification, and a few notable souls might be fuel for the Maw (e.g. Gul'dan, Gorefiend, and most of the Shadow Council).

No idea on Hakkar, but since he's been proved to be alive (to some degree) it's likely he is not in the Shadowlands.

As for the Arakkoa, the Shadowlands are infinite in scope, so their afterlife realm might be some completely different locale we've not yet seen.

The Light and the Void do seem to have some thematic connection to the Shadowlands, such as with the figures like the Archon and the Jailer seemed to adhere to the ethos of the Light and the Void respectively. This might be more a motif than a solid connection, though; a recurring riff in which Death echoes Life.

[Maxilian]

Silly you. No dead go to Emerald Dream. Those attuned to the dream go to Ardenweald when they die (like Cenarius) and they always did. We never personally saw any dead while in the Dream, not at all.

Are you sure, if i remember correctly, in the Stormrage book, we see many souls that end up there, and not only those that are sleeping, many of those that end up dying in their sleep, are still there, and do end up helping Varian and Malfurion fight in the Emerald Dream

Part of Ardenweald too actually.

Yeah, but that makes me wonder, is that place in Kultiras a gateway to the shadowlands? (where the Drust are)

Technically, Helheim is Helya's own creation that she created by using the same magic she used to create the Elemental Planes. Though perhaps it became attuned with Shadowlands later on through ways unknown.

Oh did not remember that.

The only dead Orc that matters is Draka, the ultimate Orc badass. So I doubt we will learn about that.

Hope not, that would be quite sad.

Given how he was wasted by not being included in a story evolving around a different blood-related deity of Zandalar, likely drinking himself to death in some dark corner of the world.

I do agree that it was weird not to have Hakkar even mentioned with whole Blood Troll debacle

If you expect Blizzard to remember that one I have a bridge in Tirisfal to sell you.

Sadly, i do expect this to be forgotten, though i don't think it needs much work, at least we know that the Arakkocra from WOD does not have this capacity anymore (They lose it at the end of their storyline in Spire of Arak), but we do have some of them in Outland who do seen to have this ability still

Blizzard already said that Old Gods (and likely other Void creatures) don't go to the Shadowlands when they die (the same applies to demons as well). Because why have one infinite afterlife with an infinite amount of subrealms when you can have multiple afterlifes! Totally does not undermine the premise of the one with infinite subrealms.

Yes, i do remember that the pointed out that with the Old Gods, but they have said since long ago, that the Old Gods are out of the cycle, so i'm not surprised by this, but what about those creatures that are connected to the void one way or the other, like the VEs or the Void Corrupted Broken

Space, yes. Time, unknown. There's a chance AU's like WoD are not even permanent.

Even if they are permanent or not, do the souls that die in the limit of time that the realm exist end up in the Shadowlands? in Legion we do see a Draneai soul that is from WOD in the Shadowlands through the DKs order hall campaign, though it can be possible that the Draneai we see is the version of our universe, but having in mind her quotes, is unlikely

[Flarelaine]

Depends where they end up, Devils that are created by normal means (went to the 9th hells as Larva) do not retain their memories and identity, but if a strong mortal (like a powerful wizard) makes a deal with a big devil, they may end up transformed into a Devil with their memories (if i remember correctly, the Demon lord of the 9th plane makes deals with promising adventurers to help her against the fight with demons, eventually, transforming them into devils when their time come without taking much from them -well i guess their freedom at the end)

That is true for generic D&D, but in Forgotten Realms everyone was supposed to go to their chosen deity's realm if they are found worthy or the City of Bones if they are not. Don't know if they changed that in newer editions.

[Maxilian]

That is true for generic D&D, but in Forgotten Realms everyone was supposed to go to their chosen deity's realm if they are found worthy or the City of Bones if they are not. Don't know if they changed that in newer editions.

I just know about 5E, and is as simple as: "You evil, then you go to Hell, depending the type of evil, a different type of hell, having a deal with a devil, will push you to that devils realm, etc...", funny enough i'm not that sure about good creatures, i have read way more into evil creatures and hell in general.

- - - Updated - - -

The Ardenweald appears to be more or less a shadow of the Emerald Dream, with the official material describing it as the Emerald Dream in its "twilight," reflecting death instead of life. It's the prime destination for those souls who were in tune with the nature world, a place where Druids and Shaman might naturally be drawn. Some of the souls who find themselves there give up their anima to Wild Gods and other greater entities of the natural world so that they can be reborn once more, and others become part of the Ardenweald itself, or else dwell within it as the Night Fae. Unsure how the Drust are connected to the Ardenweald, but it's described as a deceptively dangerous place - so it's likely that Drust locales represent its darker natural aspects.

As for the Arakkoa, the Shadowlands are infinite in scope, so their afterlife realm might be some completely different locale we've not yet seen.

But... the connection between the Emerald Dream and the Ardenweald is kind of weird, i mean... in both are places where souls of natural spirits end up, i mean... we know that in the Emerald Dream, there's an afterlife from winged creatures created by Aviana (G'hanir), but it seems that Aviana herself end up in Anderweald everytime she dies, so does she pull the souls of winged creature through the Shadowlands to the Emerald Dream? or is G'hanir between both zones, making an option of afterlife the Arbiter can send you to?

Note: In general, it is said, that the spirits of animals end up in the Emerald Dream (the only detail of sentient beings ending up in the Emerald Dream as their afterlife is Aviana's three)

Note2: Previous lore pointed out that the Green Dragons and Wilds Gods end up here after they die, but it looks like that's not true anymore, with the info we have of Ardenweald (maybe after they are reformed in the Shadowlands, they are send back to the Emerald Dream, and through there they can come back to the living world -we do have a couple of portals from the living world to the Emerald dream, so its plausible to say that they do this cause its an easier way to transfer from one place to the other)

[Irian]

I'm sure this will be the new Horde circlejerk topic if the last 12 pages are any indication, but saying those are "blue humans" is a little disingenuous. Blood elves look more like humans than those things do.

Those are more like blue vrykul or titanic watchers, if anything.

[Lochton]

So during this preview we learn a lot about how Bastion as an afterlife operates.

When a soul is sent there it loses it’s form.
That form is then reshaped into a Kyrian.
The memories of the old soul are torn out. Family, friends, enemies, trauma. Everything that made them who they are is forgotten.
They become a fully fledged Kyrian, their old mind and body gone forever. The Kyrians basically destroy the souls and identities of mortals in order to reproduce.

Case in point, we see a Tauren who has 'ascended' to become a Blue Human.



We then 'help' him by banishing the memories of his comrades in arms, friends and family. Essentially turning him into a blank slate, destroying all that he was and condemning him to an afterlife as somebody he isn't.

Now this would make a fascinating dystopian afterlife. But that's not how it's portrayed. This is portrayed in an entirely positive light and the player is -forced- to help the Kyrians defile the souls of those unfortunate enough to be sent to Bastion. The Kyrians even admit that they'd do the same to the player if their physical form wasn't keeping them tethered to who they really are, and the player character just seems to be fine with that?

This is during the leveling experience, so it's not even covenant-exclusive stuff.

What the fuck Blizzard?

You do know that that is meant to be an honor? The other zones has something alike but since a certain event, there is no more going there.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Funny thing. At this point, you can argue Sylvanas is definitively trying to improve all afterlife.

Because you either get into totalitarian heaven, turned into manure, turned into zombies and duel for zombies, tortured by sado-masochist vampires, or tortured by god knows what... now this is hell, not Thros.

[Kyphael]

Depends on what you get to do in heaven. If you just sit on a cloud, it's probably gonna get boring. If you get to fuck all day, I think I'd give it a go. Of course there is no heaven or hell.

If I get to do that all day sans body but still feel the same pleasures, well then hell yeah, that sounds like heaven, but the concept and intricacies are far and few in between.

[Gaidax]

I feel like Blizzard is painting themselves into a corner with this one. These are all good questions.

They already addressed this. Shadowlands we see is not all the potential afterlifes there is. Different entities or groups have their own afterlifes and even for denizens of Azeroth what we get is not all the options.

[Aucald]

But... the connection between the Emerald Dream and the Ardenweald is kind of weird, i mean... in both are places where souls of natural spirits end up, i mean... we know that in the Emerald Dream, there's an afterlife from winged creatures created by Aviana (G'hanir), but it seems that Aviana herself end up in Anderweald everytime she dies, so does she pull the souls of winged creature through the Shadowlands to the Emerald Dream? or is G'hanir between both zones, making an option of afterlife the Arbiter can send you to?

Note: In general, it is said, that the spirits of animals end up in the Emerald Dream (the only detail of sentient beings ending up in the Emerald Dream as their afterlife is Aviana's three)

Note2: Previous lore pointed out that the Green Dragons and Wilds Gods end up here after they die, but it looks like that's not true anymore, with the info we have of Ardenweald (maybe after they are reformed in the Shadowlands, they are send back to the Emerald Dream, and through there they can come back to the living world -we do have a couple of portals from the living world to the Emerald dream, so its plausible to say that they do this cause its an easier way to transfer from one place to the other)

The Ardenweald may well prove to be an extrusion of the Emerald Dream into the Shadowlands, or vice-versa - the Emerald Dream may exist within the Shadowlands, and actually be part of what might otherwise be called the greater Ardenweald. Either way I'll think we'll find them intrinsically connected, with traverse possible between them. The spirits we've seen appear in the Emerald Dream upon its restoration such as Elerethe Renferal, Cenarius, Elothir, and others might actually be in the Ardenweald, but able to appear in the Emerald Dream because they share a conceptual space, to some degree, and vice-versa.

[Maxilian]

Funny thing. At this point, you can argue Sylvanas is definitively trying to improve all afterlife.

Because you either get into totalitarian heaven, turned into manure, turned into zombies and duel for zombies, tortured by sado-masochist vampires, or tortured by god knows what... now this is hell, not Thros.

To be fair, there are more afterlifes, and maybe not all are as bad, i mean... we know about the great three where Aviana send winged creatures, and it does sound like a nice paradise, sadly... none of the playable races are winged creatures, so... we have no luck.

In the end, i think this is the whole point of the expansion, though i'm unsure how this may be solved without making a big chance to the whole universe of Warcraft

[MrSaggins]

Helya would agree but it’s all a question of consent

[Nitex]

Sounds legit. When we die we no longer use a brain... so how would we have memories?

[Maxilian]

The Ardenweald may well prove to be an extrusion of the Emerald Dream into the Shadowlands, or vice-versa - the Emerald Dream may exist within the Shadowlands, and actually be part of what might otherwise be called the greater Ardenweald. Either way I'll think we'll find them intrinsically connected, with traverse possible between them. The spirits we've seen appear in the Emerald Dream upon its restoration such as Elerethe Renferal, Cenarius, Elothir, and others might actually be in the Ardenweald, but able to appear in the Emerald Dream because they share a conceptual space, to some degree, and vice-versa.

This sound like the best answer so far.

Though it just make me wonder if the Old Gods have some connection to the Shadowlands (i know that naturally they do not), cause they (mainly N'zoth) have a big connection to the Emerald Nightmare

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds legit. When we die we no longer use a brain... so how would we have memories?

Under this logic, we won't be sentient beings in the Afterlife, and, having in mind what we have seen, this is not the case (at least not always)

[Aucald]

Though it just make me wonder if the Old Gods have some connection to the Shadowlands (i know that naturally they do not), cause they (mainly N'zoth) have a big connection to the Emerald Nightmare

My current working theory is that N'Zoth, or the Void Lords themselves, are somehow responsible for the broken state of Death. I think the Jailer is working with the Void Lords, or at their behest, to break the machinery of Life and Death itself and throw the physical universe into absolute chaos.

[Maxilian]

My current working theory is that N'Zoth, or the Void Lords themselves, are somehow responsible for the broken state of Death. I think the Jailer is working with the Void Lords, or at their behest, to break the machinery of Life and Death itself and throw the physical universe into absolute chaos.

So basically trying to do the exact opposite that Sargeras wanted to do? Instead of completely destroying life, with eternal death -Argus-, they plan to destroy death with eternal life?

It does make things easier to corrupt that way, but it also seems... weird (but... i doubt that N'zoth was the last raid of the expansion for no reason at all)

Note: Though i think their reason to do stuff depends how souls work, do new souls exist? or are we all just old souls with no memories of our past? i imagine that not, cause it would mean that is possible to eventually run out of souls, as we see with the forsworn, they are corrupted souls, and, right now, it is said that when we kill them, we destroy those souls.

But if the new souls are created in the Shadowlands with anima, braking the machine of death does help the Old Gods, as it makes sure that Azeroth will, eventually, run out of defenders, making it an easy target for the Old Gods in the future.

[Inukashi]

Well it's heaven for me. I quite enjoy all the salty tears and the agony people get when they see this and start to repeat their mantra "Bane is a human"-still not funny joke, for the 1000th time.