Arthas has to be in the Shadowlands

[Tyrannica]

Leave it to fanboys to act like a guy who made a deal with the devil and killed his best friends and family is a good guy

Illidan sacraficed his own people quite a lot, even before he took up the skull of gul'dan and he did so in stopping the burning legion. how is that different, to what arthas did in case with the scourge threat?

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Arthas' character has definitely had some ups and downs post-WC3, but I think it's abundantly clear, is *IS* the most popular character. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot to *NOT* include him. And honestly, I would take the opportunity to do something important with him (and/or Ner'zhul).

Part of me wonders if his death is what "broke death". Perhaps he and Ner'zhul's bond was stronger than we realized, that Ner'zhul was able to feed Arthas' soul some of his necromantic powers? I'd have guessed "The Jailor" actually was Ner'zhul, if the devs hadn't been so adamant about him being a brand-new character.

Either way, they definitely *HAVE* to do something with Arthas. Part of me worries they're going to have Sylvanas "kill" his spirit, just as another "look how cool Sylvanas is!" moment. I'd personally be more interested in seeing Arthas, after years of constant torment in the Maw, actually have grown as a character. Now completely powerless, his spirit essentially coming to terms with his actions, providing some kind of closure with some other characters.

Yes, blizz certainly should have done something with Arthas. Would have replaced sylvanas with Kel'thuzad in the cinematic, suddenly everything would make sense, too.

Why put the same character in cinematics .......i don't have anything against sylvanas, but she was used 2 times in a row now, in the intro cinematic of 2 expansions.

I do not see the reasioning for that and not use Kel'thuzad, who is the strongest scourge lore character right after the LK and quite immortal, with incredible knowledge.

[khalltusk]

Illidan sacraficed his own people quite a lot, even before he took up the skull of gul'dan and he did so in stopping the burning legion. how is that different, to what arthas did in case with the scourge threat?

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Yes, blizz certainly should have done something with Arthas. Would have replaced sylvanas with Kel'thuzad in the cinematic, suddenly everything would make sense, too.

Why put the same character in cinematics .......i don't have anything against sylvanas, but she was used 2 times in a row now, in the intro cinematic of 2 expansions.

I do not see the reasioning for that and not use Kel'thuzad, who is the strongest scourge lore character right after the LK and quite immortal, with incredible knowledge.

She has been on the expansion cinematic in 3 expansions. In Legion she was a small part of it, but she was there. :P

That said I want them to show Arthas, hell I want to see if we can get him out of there and bring back his old self! It won't happen but I can dream.

[Tyrannica]

She has been on the expansion cinematic in 3 expansions. In Legion she was a small part of it, but she was there. :P

That said I want them to show Arthas, hell I want to see if we can get him out of there and bring back his old self! It won't happen but I can dream.

oh right, 3 in a row now...i did know about legion but got the count messed up.

This is really ridiculous....

would have used Kel to either try to get into the shadowlands to free arthas if he is still a loyalist to him and kinda his best buddy he ever had, or he is jus trying to draw the powers of the maw for himself to the become the new upper LK. Would fit him well, as a true Lich.

Well, anything is better than another boring sylvanas story.......and i remember her beeing very annoying allready back in WC3, everywhere she shows up...

[huth]

Uther, Jaina, Muradin etc did not see the greater picture, Arthas did.

Which is why he fell hook, line and sinker for the whole ploy to get him to take up Frostmourne.

I hate when people try to justfy Uther's and Jaina's mistakes in ignoring the scourge threat and blame it all on Arthas, who had the right intensions, before taking up that sword.

Not going "oh yeah, let's do that" when somebody asks you to wipe out a major city while you don't actually know the full details of what's going on is not a "mistake". That's normal behaviour.

[Tyrannica]

Which is why he fell hook, line and sinker for the whole ploy to get him to take up Frostmourne.



Not going "oh yeah, let's do that" when somebody asks you to wipe out a major city while you don't actually know the full details of what's going on is not a "mistake". That's normal behaviour.

Its quite normal behaviour, if you are the crown prince, and those people are your people.

[khalltusk]

oh right, 3 in a row now...i did know about legion but got the count messed up.

This is really ridiculous....

would have used Kel to either try to get into the shadowlands to free arthas if he is still a loyalist to him and kinda his best buddy he ever had, or he is jus trying to draw the powers of the maw for himself to the become the new upper LK. Would fit him well, as a true Lich.

Well, anything is better than another boring sylvanas story.......and i remember her beeing very annoying allready back in WC3, everywhere she shows up...

Kels new story will be interesting, well I hope it is. As for Arthas, I would really like to see him and also get an idea of what his mind set is now. In my mind at the end of Wrath as he is about to die he asks his father if it is "over". So I was hoping he was somewhat free from that power and what had changed him all these years.

I know about the old heart quest line but perhaps even with that a small bit of him remained in the lich king and became free upon his death. So I am hoping he knows of what he did and wants to change or repent. I doubt we will get that. Kael will be interesting in where he is now, as he allied with the legion in BC before his 1st death. We then killed him a 2nd time in the sun well patch. So I wonder what he is thinking these days.

[huth]

Its quite normal behaviour, if you are the crown prince, and those people are your people.

Uther pointed out that this is in fact not the case in that very situation. Arthas is the crown prince... i.e. not the king, and not Uther's boss. In fact, as his senior in the Silver Hand, Uther was the higher ranking one.

[BeepBoo]

All these people justifying Arthas's impatient behavior. No one believed him about the scourge, so instead of attempting to provide good proof, he just decides to throw a hissy fit, attempt to abuse his power and position to force people to help him (even though they don't understand) and ultimately does it on his own.

During the mission itself, people get turned into undead, so it's not like you even get to purge them before they change.

He should have just let the entire place go to hell without turning Uther and Jaina away, and been like "SEE, I WAS RIGHT" then killed everything.

Ultimately every choice and action he makes boils down to the same pushy impatient asshole stuff where he just HAS to have his way instead of attempting to show WHY he needs to do something to anyone else, which just shows he's an entitled prick who thinks his own crusades are the most important thing in the room. Hint: even if they are actually the most important thing in the room, you still need to convince everyone about it first.

[Reydan]

All these people justifying Arthas's impatient behavior. No one believed him about the scourge, so instead of attempting to provide good proof, he just decides to throw a hissy fit, attempt to abuse his power and position to force people to help him (even though they don't understand) and ultimately does it on his own.

During the mission itself, people get turned into undead, so it's not like you even get to purge them before they change.

He should have just let the entire place go to hell without turning Uther and Jaina away, and been like "SEE, I WAS RIGHT" then killed everything.

Ultimately every choice and action he makes boils down to the same pushy impatient asshole stuff where he just HAS to have his way instead of attempting to show WHY he needs to do something to anyone else, which just shows he's an entitled prick who thinks his own crusades are the most important thing in the room. Hint: even if they are actually the most important thing in the room, you still need to convince everyone about it first.

If they waited then Mal'ganis or the Lich King had control over a huge army of ghouls which they couldn't let happen, to be precise around 25.000 people lived in Stratholme. It's the second most populous city in Lordaeron. And as a bonus the plague would've spread further easily.

Mal'ganis or the Lich King can't control someone who is only infected with the plague or during the transition phase.

[huth]

If they waited then Mal'ganis or the Lich King had control over a huge army of ghouls which they couldn't let happen, to be precise around 25.000 people lived in Stratholme. It's the second most populous city in Lordaeron. And as a bonus the plague would've spread further easily.

Mal'ganis or the Lich King can't control someone who is only infected with the plague or during the transition phase.

And they wouldn't have had Arthas to lead them, ressurect Kel'thuzad or summon Archimonde.

[BeepBoo]

Mal'ganis or the Lich King can't control someone who is only infected with the plague or during the transition phase.

Like I said, plenty of people get changed during the event, despite your best efforts as the player. All he had to do was not be a complete asshole about the situation "NO WE NEED TO KILL THEM ALL NOW HURR DURR!"

He could have just asked Uther to come in and wait a few minutes to see one of the guaranteed transformations, then he would have had the entire backing of everyone with him. No need to wait for the entire city to turn.

And they wouldn't have had Arthas to lead them, ressurect Kel'thuzad or summon Archimonde.

Also this.

[sam86]

None of the events justifies hiring mercenary to murder his men, Arthas had his men killed just because his father ordered them to retreat, and no it is not treason when someone in higher authority, in this case his father, orders it. So there is no greater good or anything that justify having the soldiers killed just because they were being recalled home.

his father ordered that under false information from uther, Uther strongly believed he knew everything while he he knows nothing about the horror of the scourge
Uther only fight with scourge prior to his death was saving Arthas from his end in a city after Arthas lost most his troops and was fighting with pitchforks and building wooden walls, Arthas was fighting with anything in that fight that he recruited even the elders (if i remember right from the novel), and Uther just come with massive army of knights, wtf pwn the scourge, and blame Arthas for failing in his 'role'
Uther was arrogant, he doesn't believe he makes a mistake, and he did, a lot
If Arthas did return it was end of humanity, that part is zero question from what we saw (unless blizz sh8tcon it, again), sadly humanity did end because in his desperation he lost his self and sanity and soul and became a LK slave with Frostmourne

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He could have just asked Uther to come in and wait a few minutes to see one of the guaranteed transformations, then he would have had the entire backing of everyone with him. No need to wait for the entire city to turn.

that would result in death of both Uther and Arthas, and Jaina and everyone at spot if u waited for transform of the city
And Arthas role as LK b8tch could easily been replaced with anyone, Arthas was a tool in LK hand, best tool but in end just a tool, Arthas only delayed the inevitable

[munkeyinorbit]

But he still got played to take up frostmourne, he did not know all the details about its curse and needed desperately to stop Mal'Ganis.

He is not the bad guy people want make him out to be, he made some hard decisions, because of the circumstances and pressure he had.

Kel'thuzad, on the other side.....

It is irrelevent how hard a decision is. If you keep making evil decisions than you are evil. Making good decisions when they are hard makes a good person. If we refer to the Culling, the hard decision would have been to wait until the people had turned and dealt with it then. Culling was the easy decision.

[Potatowizard]

And Arthas role as LK b8tch could easily been replaced with anyone

Well, no.

1) He needed someone corruptible.

2) Only a divine being could wear the helm of domination -- and live.

Believe it or not. There weren't a lot of corruptible Paladins / Divine beings around.

[huth]

Well, no.

1) He needed someone corruptible.

2) Only a divine being could wear the helm of domination -- and live.

Believe it or not. There weren't a lot of corruptible Paladins / Divine beings around.

Wasn't it even said somewhere that Arthas was basically the only viable candidate available?

[BeepBoo]

that would result in death of both Uther and Arthas, and Jaina and everyone at spot if u waited for transform of the city
And Arthas role as LK b8tch could easily been replaced with anyone, Arthas was a tool in LK hand, best tool but in end just a tool, Arthas only delayed the inevitable

Dude... you're not hearing me...

IN the flipping WC3 mission, people get turned to undead... period... You cannot prevent 100% of it. In addition, Malganis is there actively doing corrupting. So as soon as uther would have seen one of those incidents, he would have been all "by the LIGHT, SMITE THEE!"

All Arthas had to do was invite uther to come into the city with him and say "hey dawg, I think this is likely to happen... I'm not gonna go outright murdering people before I'm sure of this, but I want to be ready *IF* this stuff starts to go down." Uther would have been fine with that.

He didn't. He tried to convince Uther without any proof that they needed to murder everyone before anything even happened, and then attempted to use his dick head appeal to authority to force Uther when Uther was like "Nah son, I don't believe you... and you want me to murder tons of people on just faith in you... not gonna happen."

Which is perfectly reasonable. Assume that it was even possible to kill everyone in the WC3 mission and that Malganis wasn't there. If you kill everyone without a single one of them turning, do you actually know FOR SURE that you didn't just outright murder 25k people? No, you just have faith that some brat ass prince knew what he was talking about and didn't lie to you. I couldn't personally commit such an act on faith alone, even if it was the person I trusted the most in life.

[Potatowizard]

Dude... you're not hearing me...

IN the flipping WC3 mission, people get turned to undead... period... You cannot prevent 100% of it. In addition, Malganis is there actively doing corrupting. So as soon as uther would have seen one of those incidents, he would have been all "by the LIGHT, SMITE THEE!"

All Arthas had to do was invite uther to come into the city with him and say "hey dawg, I think this is likely to happen... I'm not gonna go outright murdering people before I'm sure of this, but I want to be ready *IF* this stuff starts to go down." Uther would have been fine with that.

He didn't. He tried to convince Uther without any proof that they needed to murder everyone before anything even happened, and then attempted to use his dick head appeal to authority to force Uther when Uther was like "Nah son, I don't believe you... and you want me to murder tons of people on just faith in you... not gonna happen."

Which is perfectly reasonable. Assume that it was even possible to kill everyone in the WC3 mission and that Malganis wasn't there. If you kill everyone without a single one of them turning, do you actually know FOR SURE that you didn't just outright murder 25k people? No, you just have faith that some brat ass prince knew what he was talking about and didn't lie to you. I couldn't personally commit such an act on faith alone, even if it was the person I trusted the most in life.

I think you're missing the whole point of Arthas' arc. He told Uther to purge the city. He wasn't going to show him proof. He wanted obedience. He knew what was going on. And yes, a rational person would walk in there and be show him. "LOOK! These people are going to turn into a MASSIVE undead army."

Arthas was a "my way or you die" type of a guy.

[BeepBoo]

Arthas was a "my way or you die" type of a guy.

Oh I completely understand and get that. That's why I'm not some Arthasshole apologist like so many of these other people in the thread.

"Waaah arthas wasn't treated fairly and was abandoned by those he loved" bullshit.
"Waah arthas did nothing wrong and was just dealt a bad hand" bullshit.

Arthas was Arthasshole. He could have been the chosen one of right. He succumbed to his own flaws and was the chosen one of wrong instead. Not due to circumstance, but due to his character and his bad choices that had ways of solving them someone without his ego would have seen.

[Reydan]

And they wouldn't have had Arthas to lead them, ressurect Kel'thuzad or summon Archimonde.

No then they would've Mal'ganis to lead them and probably later the Legion to invade Azeroth.

[Nefastus]

You don't get thrown in the Maw for having done bad things in life. You get thrown in there for being considered irredeemable and a threat to the Shadowlands.

Saurfang killed innocents and children, but he wasn't proud of it.

What is irredeemable is very subjetive really. Saurfang killing children is still abominable, being proud of it or not. But still thanks for telling me more about the maw, didn't know those details.

An odd thing that people isn't discussing here is that Arthas and the other undead doesn't have souls anymore so how does it work? If Frostmourne consumed his soul, did it get released the moment it was broken? If thats the case, can his soul be responsible for what he done post acquiring Frostmourne? In the very first dialogue in the undead campaign he says how he feels no shame, no pity, etc and the dreadlord says its because Frostmourne ate his soul. What about all the other undead, such as dks and forsaken in general?