Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

That's right, even if I could argue that the average turned evil BE differ in the way it's portrayed : they seek more power to themselves when the ones in Quel'Lithien just tried to survive and fucked it up. But now that I think about it... why did they become Wretched ? After all, by the end of TBC, they should also benefit from the radiance of the restaured Sunwell and shouldn't have needed those artifacts to satiate their hunger for mana. Perhaps it happened during TBC ?

Yeah, it's kinda odd, since the Quel'lithien elves were visited by Lor'themar in a book after the Sunwell got reignited.

So no, it happened after TbC.

[Combatbutler]

That's right, even if I could argue that the average turned evil BE differ in the way it's portrayed : they seek more power to themselves when the ones in Quel'Lithien just tried to survive and fucked it up. But now that I think about it... why did they become Wretched ? After all, by the end of TBC, they should also benefit from the radiance of the restaured Sunwell and shouldn't have needed those artifacts to satiate their hunger for mana. Perhaps it happened during TBC ?
.

It happened afterwards, since Lor'themar himself went there to inform the sunwell was back again and that kael'thas had died. So in the end they meddled with powers beyond their control and became wretched, just like every other wretched.

[protip]

thanks

I am referring to the semantic use of the word physiological in an attempt to create a marked equality between two groups in a world where the physiological principles of any of the mortal races have not been established. and the biggest evidence you can see is that you didn't answer any of the questions I asked to you, because you can't get this information, since Blizzard didn't bother to establish any principle.

There's no reason to answer any of those questions, because they are based on a view of language that is not accurate. You're dodging my point by defaulting to an irrelevant technical definition. If I ask someone to pass the salt at dinner and he gives me a shaker full of blue powder labeled "Copper Sulfate," then he has failed to identify the correct definition of the word in context. Even if the definition of a salt has a technical definition in chemistry that would support his interpretation, he is definitely wrong.

This is where I disagree. as content creator; If I'm going to use a word to explain a fact to the players, I have to be sure that the technicality I will use makes sense. even more if is not from an area in which I am familiar with. that's where the plot holes come out.

The article that had a wrong title that had nothing to do with its content?

what?

if we refer to the concepts and principles they study and teach; Yes, they can do it. It is their job to teach and correct. It's as if I told you that fel magic is actually made from avocado juice. immediately the player community would correct my mistake.

This just sounds like denial to me, sorry. You know full well what that word means in its given context and refuse to accept its widely known meaning. The conclusion is even implied in the sentence itself. In order for two groups to be "physiologically the same race," then there must be physiological characteristics that vary between races, and those differences must not be present in the two groups that are being compared. If you choose to believe that physiology refers to an undefined set of characteristics with no relevance to the game, then you can choose to believe that there are no problems and that Blizzard hasn't clearly communicated that blood elves and high elves are the same race. You'll definitely be wrong, but at least I'll have some copper sulfate.

it doesn't have to become, it's already a story of fel corruption or physical transformation.

There is a very minor aspect of fel corruption to the story of the blood elves of Silvermoon, after the point that they became blood elves. The process of becoming a blood elf involves neither of those things.

I think VE already took that train.

This is another evidence of plot holes. If you mean the addiction that blood elves have was cured, then why do they still need the sunwell?
and even if that were the case, there are still the phenotypic and political differences (not to mention the cultural ones since they have not been explored)
Blizzard took the identity of BE, literally copied it, and put it in the alliance with the VE. VE are BE in culture, history and model; that makes the individuality of blood elves as a group null

It's not a plot hole at all, they are still addicted, but that addiction has no impact on their lives as they are now because the Sunwell has already solved that problem. It's the same situation as for the Alliance aligned high elves. The Sunwell has not ended their addiction, it has sated it indefinitely. The Reliquary is still looking for a permanent resolution to that addiction that does not rely on the Sunwell, but in any case, the issue of magical addiction is not important to the current circumstances of the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are members of the high elf race living in their ancestral homeland with their historic culture under the government that was established by the high elves long prior to the Scourge Invasion. If your concept of Blood Elf fantasy doesn't take that into account, you are ignoring almost the entirety of their history.

Nobody is talking about giving BE a new model

No, you're talking about shifting their heritage out from under them, which has significant impact to how they are perceived. If they are in Silvermoon surrounded by statues that look different from them, they will appear out of place, which is not the case at all. They are the same elves that were living in Quel'thalas before they became blood elves, and they have gone to great lengths to maintain their way of life. Many of their eyes changed color for a time, but we are seeing with gold eyes that this can happen fairly easily. If priests and paladins can have gold eyes by now, what of arcane mages? What about 10 years from now? The fel taint has told its story, and the Blood Elves are now truly the legitimate continuation of High Elf society. Their model needs to communicate that.

[Ignaz]

There's no reason to answer any of those questions, because they are based on a view of language that is not accurate.

Why is it not accurate?

You're dodging my point by defaulting to an irrelevant technical definition.

What point? From the beginning of our discussion, you have been defending the fact that they use technicalities incorrectly

This just sounds like denial to me, sorry. You know full well what that word means in its given context and refuse to accept its widely known meaning.

If you refer to the avocado example, it is a reference with an absurd tone to demonstrate the absurdity of the controversy.
It is possible that I know what is fel magic or not and that is the point. I'm using wow technicality without knowing its meaning (in the example)

The conclusion is even implied in the sentence itself. In order for two groups to be "physiologically the same race," then there must be physiological characteristics that vary between races

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

There is a very minor aspect of fel corruption to the story of the blood elves of Silvermoon, after the point that they became blood elves. The process of becoming a blood elf involves neither of those things.

you mean the process of taking the name of the blood elf, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about phenotypical (whether you consider them minimal or not) and psychological changes they suffered after the corruption caused by the interaction with fel magic.

It's not a plot hole at all, they are still addicted, but that addiction has no impact on their lives as they are now because the Sunwell has already solved that problem

.
what?
Now, let me try to understand your logic. I am addicted to drug X and that is my problem. I go to the sunwell clinic and psychiatrists with therapy help me cure my addiction. Then I go to my home and continue using the drug X. So I solved the problem of being addicted but I'm still addicted? And, how would my addiction not impact my life?

No, you're talking about shifting their heritage out from under them, which has significant impact to how they are perceived. If they are in Silvermoon surrounded by statues that look different from them, they will appear out of place, which is not the case at all.

man. nobody wants to change name, culture, model or the history of blood elves. Their changes occurred even before being playable.

[Katchii]

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

1) Only if the offspring is able to procreate. There are examples of hybrids created from completely different races in real life, the offspring are just sterile.

2) You really can't take real world biology and science and try to apply it to a high fantasy setting. The same rules don't apply, mainly because the creators can just "MAGIC" their way out of it or just say that's not how it works, so it's pointless trying to argue why a real world application of biology calls into question something that's happening inside of a video game fantasy setting.

[protip]

Why is it not accurate?

What point? From the beginning of our discussion, you have been defending the fact that they use technicalities incorrectly

It's not a technicality. It's literally the definition of the word outside of the specific technical context that you are trying to enforce on it. Taking it in the context it was presented, there is no reason to view the statement in the way that you are.

If you refer to the avocado example, it is a reference with an absurd tone to demonstrate the absurdity of the controversy.
It is possible that I know what is fel magic or not and that is the point. I'm using wow technicality without knowing its meaning (in the example)

there should be, but facts like humans and HE can procreate hybrids put them in doubt.

You've said this many times, and it is not relevant. The creators of the game have given an explicit statement (many, many times) about the relationship between blood elves and high elves. Even if you argue that being physiologically the same race is inconclusive, the same article refers to blood elves and high elves directly as "members of the same race." There is no controversy here - they are the same race.

you mean the process of taking the name of the blood elf, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about phenotypical (whether you consider them minimal or not) and psychological changes they suffered after the corruption caused by the interaction with fel magic.

The process of becoming a blood elf is the process of using mana tap, which is not fel magic. In the Illidan questline, he sacrifices his mages in the same way, and the magic is clearly arcane, just as the Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent abilities have always been arcane. The wretched are not overwhelmed by fel magic, but by an overindulgence in arcane magic. There are also wretched that indulge in fel magic, and they have a different appearance. You are making this up.

what?
Now, let me try to understand your logic. I am addicted to drug X and that is my problem. I go to the sunwell clinic and psychiatrists with therapy help me cure my addiction. Then I go to my home and continue using the drug X. So I solved the problem of being addicted but I'm still addicted? And, how would my addiction not impact my life?

The high elves were (and are) also addicted to magic. This does not separate them from the high elves in any way. They were addicted to magic before the destruction of the Sunwell, so things are back to business as usual. They were high elves before, and without the need to mana tap, they are effectively high elves once again.

man. nobody wants to change name, culture, model or the history of blood elves. Their changes occurred even before being playable.

In your imagination, perhaps these changes exist. Perhaps you feel that the handful of customization options not available to players are indicative of some sort of physical transformation. However, existing canon lore specifically contradicts that idea, and the fact that blood elves look and act like high elves is and has been an integral part of their identity from their introduction to the game.

[Ignaz]

1) Only if the offspring is able to procreate. There are examples of hybrids created from completely different races in real life, the offspring are just sterile.

Races of the same species, remember that here we are taking Blizzard's definition of race; which encompasses the definitions of species and race at the same time.

2) You really can't take real world biology and science and try to apply it to a high fantasy setting. The same rules don't apply, mainly because the creators can just "MAGIC" their way out of it or just say that's not how it works, so it's pointless trying to argue why a real world application of biology calls into question something that's happening inside of a video game fantasy setting.

what you say is true, but I am referring to the technicality they use to describe, not their reality.

[Black Goat]

I honestly don't know what you are on about but one can feel the rage put on these words, I suggest you to calm down and write another response less filled with vitriol.

But you do know what I'm on about. You're feigning ignorance.

All Blood Elves are capable of having golden eyes, not just Lightbearers, as a result of the Sunwell being cleansed/infused. You denied that was possible. So yes, you did deny it. And no, I haven't misinterpreted anything. The information is quite easy to understand for most people.

[Katchii]

Races of the same species, remember that here we are taking Blizzard's definition of race; which encompasses the definitions of species and race at the same time.

I don't think I've even heard the term species used in WoW, so I'm curious to know where this is coming from. The only term I've ever heard it context of th race discussion is "race."

what you say is true, but I am referring to the technicality they use to describe, not their reality.

Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

[Ignaz]

You've said this many times, and it is not relevant. The creators of the game have given an explicit statement (many, many times) about the relationship between blood elves and high elves. Even if you argue that being physiologically the same race is inconclusive, the same article refers to blood elves and high elves directly as "members of the same race." There is no controversy here - they are the same race.

I get your point. I understand that those who wrote the article refer to both groups as members of the same race, but I see two problems here:
- They use a technicality that leaves a hole full of incoherence
- Under the standards of the same company that created the game, minimal phenotypic and psychological changes are necessary to consider a race distinct from another (allied races)

The process of becoming a blood elf is the process of using mana tap which is not fel magic.

so we are talking about a phenotypic change that exists in lore

In the Illidan questline, he sacrifices his mages in the same way, and the magic is clearly arcane, just as the Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent abilities have always been arcane. The wretched are not overwhelmed by fel magic, but by an overindulgence in arcane magic. There are also wretched that indulge in fel magic, and they have a different appearance. You are making this up.

So, if there is no interaction with fel magic; how do you explain the phenotypic changes they suffered? (e.g. green eyes)

The high elves were (and are) also addicted to magic. This does not separate them from the high elves in any way. They were addicted to magic before the destruction of the Sunwell, so things are back to business as usual. They were high elves before, and without the need to mana tap, they are effectively high elves once again.

The sunwell cured corruption, not mutation. They are two phenotypically different groups
And if you cure the addition it is because you stop being addicted. It is inconsistent to be addicted and not be at the same time

In your imagination, perhaps these changes exist. Perhaps you feel that the handful of customization options not available to players are indicative of some sort of physical transformation. However, existing canon lore specifically contradicts that idea, and the fact that blood elves look and act like high elves is and has been an integral part of their identity from their introduction to the game.

My imagination? the differences are there to see them. and if BE and HE acted in the same way, from the beginning BE would not have exiled anyone

- - - Updated - - -

Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

No matter how fantastic the game is, it has to have a certain relationship with the real world, so that the player can identify with the content. That relationship is expressed in their stories and explanations. If they use some technicality, they have to be aware of its meaning, because that is the string that keeps the player's mind tied to the content

[Katchii]

No matter how fantastic the game is, it has to have a certain relationship with the real world, so that the player can identify with the content. That relationship is expressed in their stories and explanations. If they use some technicality, they have to be aware of its meaning, because that is the string that keeps the player's mind tied to the content

I disagree with the idea that the game has to be based in reality or have some relationship to the real world for the player to identify with the content. Some things within the world being similar to what's in the real world helps, but there's no reason the two have to be directly related.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think most players even care about how scientifically accurate the world is, just so long as what logic the game uses is consistent and makes sense within the context of the world. And that logic does not have to be consistent with real world science.

Regardless of what words and context you're trying to project onto this world and it's science...it's not science that is governing how this world works it's the imagination and decisions of the creators. There are no hard and fast scientific/ biological rules that govern what happens within the World of Warcraft.

[Aldo Hawk]

But you do know what I'm on about. You're feigning ignorance.

All Blood Elves are capable of having golden eyes, not just Lightbearers, as a result of the Sunwell being cleansed/infused. You denied that was possible. So yes, you did deny it. And no, I haven't misinterpreted anything. The information is quite easy to understand for most people.

Goddamn dude seriously I am still trying to get what are you on about. Aside from pure vitriol from your part of course.

I NEVER denied Blood elves are capable of doing that. What happens is that you are pushing your interpretation of it over the provided explanation and I am not gonna even try to bother with it because there is no point whatsoever, do you get that? Do you at least get that?

The explanation is: Blood elf light worshipers get golden eyes, and for playable characters they didn't placed obstacles for non light worshiping classes, and they might even give golden eyes to some characters that aren't priests or paladins. The whole thing with playable characters is for the player to make it's own thing. For example, a rogue that worships the light but isn't a priest or a paladin.

The fact that we have only seen Blood elf priest and paladin NPCs with golden eyes is a big hint at it.

Easy to understand, easy to grasp, easy to not twist into out of the scheme with personal interpretations.

[Ignaz]

I disagree with the idea that the game has to be based in reality or have some relationship to the real world for the player to identify with the content. Some things within the world being similar to what's in the real world helps, but there's no reason the two have to be directly related.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think most players even care about how scientifically accurate the world is, just so long as what logic the game uses is consistent and makes sense within the context of the world. And that logic does not have to be consistent with real world science.

Although we think differently, I respect your point of view.

Regardless of what words and context you're trying to project onto this world and it's science...it's not science that is governing how this world works it's the imagination and decisions of the creators. There are no hard and fast scientific/ biological rules that govern what happens within the World of Warcraft.

I agree with what you say here. But my goal is not to integrate science as absolute principles in a fantastic world.
My argument is based on the semantic use of words related to these sciences to explain an important point such as differentiation between races (one of the pillars of the franchise). Even more because of the controversy caused by the HE request.

[Aldo Hawk]

I don't think I've even heard the term species used in WoW, so I'm curious to know where this is coming from. The only term I've ever heard it context of th race discussion is "race."



Again, the only term I've heard is "race" not species. Taking the description and then applying a real world term to that description and implying all of the real world implications of what that term is won't work here either due to the high fantasy setting and real world rules don't apply.

Of course the word species has not been used like that, and when it was used in the Warcraft movie it felt kind of out of place.

What I am taking from Ignaz's posts is that he is actually saying that the very word can't be treated that seriously, and not only the word 'species' but also the word 'race' itself that is the one that is much more used and that has a very wild meaning inside Warcraft that you will not find in a dictionary.

[Black Goat]

The explanation is: Blood elf light worshipers get golden eyes, and for playable characters they didn't placed obstacles for non light worshiping classes, and they might even give golden eyes to some characters that aren't priests or paladins. The whole thing with playable characters is for the player to make it's own thing. For example, a rogue that worships the light but isn't a priest or a paladin.

The fact that we have only seen Blood elf priest and paladin NPCs with golden eyes is a big hint at it.

Easy to understand, easy to grasp, easy to not twist into out of the scheme with personal interpretations.

The entire bolded part is your interpretation of it, and not the facts. All Blood Elves, both in lore and in gameplay, can have golden eyes. Not just Lightbearers (priest and paladins).

If you're not here to discuss interpretations, you just provided yours. And it's wrong. I keep providing the facts, not my personal interpretation. Do you understand what a fact is? Do you understand that I'm not emotional, but you are? I'm speaking plainly and very matter of fact to you, and your frustration is quite evident.

[Katchii]

Although we think differently, I respect your point of view.

Fair enough.

I agree with what you say here. But my goal is not to integrate science as absolute principles in a fantastic world.
My argument is based on the semantic use of words related to these sciences to explain an important point such as differentiation between races (one of the pillars of the franchise). Even more because of the controversy caused by the HE request.

Point being, the science your applying to describe the difference between races is meaningless in this context. If the creators say they're the same, they're the same. If the creators say they're different, they're different. That's all that needs to be said. No semantic argument about what the word actually means in context of real world science is going to change how it actually works within the World of Warcraft.

[Ignaz]

Point being, the science your applying to describe the difference between races is meaningless in this context.

I don't see them meaningless. The ''science'' that I am applying are just basic terms. I mean the phenotypic change for example: a change that can be seen (visually changes, however the change is).

If the creators say they're the same, they're the same. If the creators say they're different, they're different. That's all that needs to be said. No semantic argument about what the word actually means in context of real world science is going to change how it actually works within the World of Warcraft.

But semantics can open a gap of opportunities in the story. That is the point I want to reach and at the same time, the fun part of the controversy.

[Katchii]

I don't see them meaningless. The ''science'' that I am applying are just basic terms. I mean the phenotypic change for example: a change that can be seen (visually changes, however the change is).

You're still taking a real world, scientific term with all of it's context and scientific application and applying it to a fantasy world in a video game. True, the word phenotype is just the outward physical appearance of something, but it's much easier to just say "eye color" without bringing science into it...because that's how Blizzard describes it.

But semantics can open a gap of opportunities in the story. That is the point I want to reach and at the same time, the fun part of the controversy.

Trying to apply real world scientific terms to a high fantasy video game doesn't open gaps of opportunity for the story anywhere but in your head, though, because that science and all it implies doesn't exist within the World of Warcraft. The creators of the game have flat out stated that High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. Discussing phenotypic differences between them and what that might imply genetically and whether or not they're really the same is a fruitless argument, because no matter what you say, what argument you come up with using real world scientific terms and semantics regarding their usage within the game, the creators have already decided and stated, multiple times, that they're the same.

The main piece of the discussion that's still up for debate is whether having Alliance aligned High Elves as a playable race will ever happen. Cultural identity is still somewhat up in the air, but that's separate from the race discussion.

[Aldo Hawk]

The entire bolded part is your interpretation of it, and not the facts.

That is not my interpretation, that is exactly what Steve Danuser said.

Exactly that, I have not thought for anything else, you can open the two tweets and compare.

My god.

All Blood Elves, both in lore and in gameplay, can have golden eyes. Not just Lightbearers (priest and paladins).

That's not something you have to discuss with me, if not with the developers, since that's the interpretation you have gave to it and have been explained to not be the case.

If you're not here to discuss interpretations, you just provided yours.

I literally, literally, just explained exactly what Steve Danuser said. What I said is not outside what Steve Danuser said by any given mean.

And it's wrong. I keep providing the facts, not my personal interpretation.

You are literally airing conclusions that do not match with what has been explained, you have taken the information I provided and ended up with something that was not stated.

Do you understand what a fact is?

Quite obviously, since I have been the one providing an official source of information about the given matter and I am not trying to impose my view on it.

Do you understand that I'm not emotional, but you are?

Are you sure? This smells like projection.

I'm speaking plainly and very matter of fact to you, and your frustration is quite evident.

This one stinks like projection, totally.

I am gonna ignore you from now on unless you change that attitude, I am not here to feed attitudes like this with interactions, good luck with that.

[Paraka]

But they're still tauren. Highmountain tauren differ from the Kalimdor tauren a little in culture (their love for flying) and in their physical appearance (the blessing from Cenarius). If Blizzard, in a new expansion, created a new continent in which lived a group of high elves, with no physical distinction from the high elves from the EK, and still the same culture, they'd be high elves, wouldn't they?

So you're using an example of another race that is just enough distinctly different to be a different race to justify making a different race of High Elves that are still the same as High Elves? So how are they introduced unless they're brand new Elves? You got the little change from Void Elves and felt slighted.

Your example actually works better to justify Void Elves the same way Tauren and HMT differ. Literally one can use that example on Blood and High Elf differentiation if it wasn't only because the politics (and that BE were not introduced as a new race actively in WoW).

Let's humor this and they added some kind of... Bone Elf, they have paler skins, but many also have peach hues, like the overlap of the Taurens. Now they have similar culture, so say they revere that all things die, as opposed to nurturing wilderness. Now add an option to them that's unhidable, say they have bone horns on their head, similar to how HMT have antlers. Now you can low-key create a High Elf, but is it... Really a High Elf with such minor differences but enough that separates them?