Shadowlands question - One Gul'Dan or two?

[Alex86el]

what an excellent question!
f*ck wod.

[KrayZ33]

The shadowlands transcend all realities and has an infinite amount of layers.
Draenor or Guldan is not the problem at all, no matter where he/they died. The concept itself is flawed.
It's basically the equivalent of the twisting nether for us - probably - no one knows.

[Nelaphim-EX]

It is Gul'dans all the way down.

[Eto Demerzel]

(Been gone for years, and just came back to the fandom. So hello all!)

So one thing the Shadowlands creates is the possibility of multiple incarnations of the same character, which I will dub the "Gul'dan problem"

With the multiverse existing, there will be alternate versions of multiple characters. So how does death work for them? Is it like the Burning Legion, where the Shadowlands are the same across all realities? On that point, this does make demon souls confusing. As in once you become a demon you exist across all realities as a singular being, but with there being a multiverse there is the chance that everyone becomes a demon at one point. So in that case, where is our demon Thrall? and demon Jania (or Dreadlord Jaina from HotS).

We could assume that there are many alternate shadowlands, the place is infinite and maybe it spawns multiple versions of the same base covenants depending on the number of universes. But in Gul'dans case, both his prime and alternate universe forms died within the prime universe (unlike Ner'zul who died on alternate Draenor).

So in the Maw (cause that is where he is going), would there be 2 of him or 1? Is the soul singular like a demon across all realities? With the multiple versions of a character unified across many universes (guess kind of a Quantum immortality situation). Or are there multiple Gul'dans with many in the Maw, and a couple with the Kyrian where he became an order worshiping light zealot? If there is one, then it does bring up the moral question of how much you deserve your fate. As there will be many universes of you as both a sinner and a saint, so would it mean your fate is based on the % of universes that you act like an arse?

Anyway, that is my main sticking point at the moment with the lore for me. However, I love the idea of 2 Gul'dans in the Maw arguing on why both their plans failed.

I have a theory that might solve it!

What if there is a single Shadowlands for all the realities... and.. when we die... we just become a single entity with all the souls of our multiverse versions... so we become a "flawless" being? To be fair, reincarnation is not promised in any wow religion, some entities might pull your soul back into your body before it has been "lost"... so, what if being "lost" means getting sorted out into the Shadowlands, merged with your other multiversed souls and then (maybe) get reincarnated into a different plane where all beings are living in peace, harmony and solitude? (aka Light's version of Heaven xD).

[Salty Schro]

You guys are missing the bigger picture. Gul'dan Twin council style fight in the inevitable Maw raid.

It maybe a mess of lore, but damn I want this as a raid fight.

[MatadorMedia]

If you listen to the Tomb of Sargeras audio stories - which are amazing, by the way - I seem to recall the AU Gul'Dan getting the memories of the Prime Gul'Dan. This makes me think they merged together. And since the Shadowlands, like the Emerald Dream, is tied to Prime Azeroth... there would be only one Gul'Dan, the AU one with the Prime's memories. That's just a theory.

[Kyphael]

Two Gul'dans, two individual souls, a quasi-shared set of memories (diverging from the point where WoD occurred for AU Gul'dan).

I guess it makes sense. We just accept alternate universes in Marvel and DC Comics. It just hasn't been fleshed out properly, at all, in Warcraft. That's why it's picked apart by the fan base. It's like the concept and idea was just dropped, and used to give us iconic Orc characters to begin with, but with no long-term payoff.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I guess it makes sense. We just accept alternate universes in Marvel and DC Comics. It just hasn't been fleshed out properly, at all, in Warcraft. That's why it's picked apart by the fan base. It's like the concept and idea was just dropped, and used to give us iconic Orc characters to begin with, but with no long-term payoff.

The fanbase doesn't let it even go anywhere its torn apart the second it touchs the surface. Rant aside, someone said that Blizzard clarified that the AU is collapsing on itself which on one hand I'm ok with cause Yrel being screwed over with whats going on. On the other hand it makes the Mag'har scenario kinda pointless since only part of the results of when Grommash goes into battle and...we don't know what happens to the rest of the Orcs there and the Lightbound Draenei faction. If the universe basically gets deleted....

WHy introduce it in the first place. I mean I would understand if there was a REASON for that(Like maybe the Void consumes it and thus it doesn't exist but that might hurt my brain).

[Aucald]

I guess it makes sense. We just accept alternate universes in Marvel and DC Comics. It just hasn't been fleshed out properly, at all, in Warcraft. That's why it's picked apart by the fan base. It's like the concept and idea was just dropped, and used to give us iconic Orc characters to begin with, but with no long-term payoff.

If you're interested in the various of time travel and/or alternate universe models it's kind of implied without being belabored, though the subtext is easy to miss due to the lack of any real exploration and that because it's very easy to (and actually already has) produce logistical errors in the storytelling that had to be hastily knitted shut. WoW uses the "many worlds" model of alternative causalities, where the timeline fractures at every decision point, with the alternative timelines only existing briefly before they dissolve into nothingness - the more key the decision, the more stable the AU timeline produced but all are ultimately destined to collapse save the true timeline we inhabit. Chronomantic magic, such as the kind used by Aman'thul or the Bronze Dragonflight, can effect such timelines and effectively harden them, or make them more durable and stable - such was the kind of powerful magic used to realize the WoD timeline for Draenor and make it exist to the point it could be visited and interacted with.

The WoD timeline will eventually collapse, though, dragging its entire universe (and possibly its metacosm) into oblivion, with only those entities who escape to the primary timeline being relics of it. It's possible those beings might also collapse with their timeline, being intrinsically tied to it, or they'll continue to exist within the primary timeline (the passage having realized them to a more permanent extent). Hard to say as we've not yet witnessed it. I'd say if we did encounter AU Gul'dan in the Shadowlands you'd probably have your answer there.

[Sneaksies]

(Been gone for years, and just came back to the fandom. So hello all!)

So one thing the Shadowlands creates is the possibility of multiple incarnations of the same character, which I will dub the "Gul'dan problem"

With the multiverse existing, there will be alternate versions of multiple characters. So how does death work for them? Is it like the Burning Legion, where the Shadowlands are the same across all realities? On that point, this does make demon souls confusing. As in once you become a demon you exist across all realities as a singular being, but with there being a multiverse there is the chance that everyone becomes a demon at one point. So in that case, where is our demon Thrall? and demon Jania (or Dreadlord Jaina from HotS).

We could assume that there are many alternate shadowlands, the place is infinite and maybe it spawns multiple versions of the same base covenants depending on the number of universes. But in Gul'dans case, both his prime and alternate universe forms died within the prime universe (unlike Ner'zul who died on alternate Draenor).

So in the Maw (cause that is where he is going), would there be 2 of him or 1? Is the soul singular like a demon across all realities? With the multiple versions of a character unified across many universes (guess kind of a Quantum immortality situation). Or are there multiple Gul'dans with many in the Maw, and a couple with the Kyrian where he became an order worshiping light zealot? If there is one, then it does bring up the moral question of how much you deserve your fate. As there will be many universes of you as both a sinner and a saint, so would it mean your fate is based on the % of universes that you act like an arse?

Anyway, that is my main sticking point at the moment with the lore for me. However, I love the idea of 2 Gul'dans in the Maw arguing on why both their plans failed.

wanna gul dan 1v1 in shadowlands

[Golden Yak]

I had the same question, but about Cho'Gall, so it's even more of a mindfuck.

[qwerty123456]

If Demons exist only once across all realities & timelines then Gul'dan should only exist once in the first place and we already got a lore plothole in WoD.

I mean, it would have been fine if Gul'dan was just a powerful Orc Warlock but not a demon. But that's when he was portrayed without all those spikes and skulls. But even more important, it's Illidan's story that implies Gul'dan to be a demon.

How? By consuming the skull of Gul'dan in Warcraft 3 Illidan becomes a demon with an immortal demon soul. Which by the way creates another lore plothole since now Illidan should only exist once across all timelines and realities, and yet we see pre-corrupted Illidan in the Well of Eternity dungeon in Cataclysm, that shouldn't be possible since Illidan is a demon now and only exists once.

Anyway, back to Gul'dan. If Illidan consuming the skull of Gul'dan makes him a demon then that means Gul'dan should have been a demon as well. Or does Illidan become a demon by consuming the skull of a mortal Orc? That would be weird. So demon makes more sense. So why are there multiple versions of Gul'dan then? Something doesn't add up.

And if Gul'dan is a demon then Illidan shouldn't have been able to kill him so easily in the Nighthold cinematic, except when Gul'dan was severely weakened by us. But then Illidan would just be killstealing and his smug attitude would be misplaced since he doesn't deserve credit then.

All in all a gigantic lore clusterf*ck if you ask me.

Gul'dan should be a demon and exists only once. That makes the most sense. Or Blizzard should go back and retcon Warcraft 3 that Illidan does something different to become a demon instead of consuming the skull of Gul'dan.

They said only one demon version of you exists. There can be a million versions of Velen but only one demon version(although with how much he is hated by Kil'jaeden I doubt any demon version of him exists unless its being perma tortured somewhere). I assume any versions of you that become a demon merge in the twisting nether adding to its power.

[Neklord]

Only characters that died in Azeroth will be in the Shadowlands, so no Twisting nether, no Argus, no alternative universe.

[rayvio]

the easiest solution is that every reality has a Shadowlands and that everyone from that reality is tied to that Shadowlands regardless of which reality they died in

of course the easiest (and by far most sensible) solution to the Burning Legion thing would've been any possibility that didn't involve there only being one of them spanning all possible mirror universes because that was a special kind of stupid. so no guarantees on Blizz doing the smart thing here

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Lorewise there could be as many Gul'dans as well as any other characters within the Shadowlands since there are many realities and the realm covers them all. But we'll probably only see 2 in the game. They would either be fighting each other or working together to defend themselves against the other nasty inmates of the Maw. We might even have a chance to pull them back to our reality for future stories.

[Riistov]

Double the Gul'dan, double the fun!

[Aucald]

I had the same question, but about Cho'Gall, so it's even more of a mindfuck.

Cho'gall dies in AU Draenor, so he would either go to the AU metacosm's Shadowlands (and dissolve into non-being when the time line does) or perhaps make his way the Void if the Void Lords wanted him. The open question here being as to whether the greater metacosm of WoW (e.g. the Shadowlands, the Light, the Void, the Twisting Nether) are transcendent above the multiverse, or if each timeline contains its own discrete metacosm.

[Golden Yak]

Cho'gall dies in AU Draenor, so he would either go to the AU metacosm's Shadowlands (and dissolve into non-being when the time line does) or perhaps make his way the Void if the Void Lords wanted him. The open question here being as to whether the greater metacosm of WoW (e.g. the Shadowlands, the Light, the Void, the Twisting Nether) are transcendent above the multiverse, or if each timeline contains its own discrete metacosm.

Also, what happens when a guy with two heads dies.

Like, does each head have its own soul? Was Gall finally all 'see you later, I'm my own head now!' and took off without Cho? Or was there one soul with two minds?

[Aucald]

Also, what happens when a guy with two heads dies.

Like, does each head have its own soul? Was Gall finally all 'see you later, I'm my own head now!' and took off without Cho? Or was there one soul with two minds?

I've always assumed that two-headed Ogres only had one soul, they just had two aspects of sentience that essentially shared that soul or comprised it. Cho and Gall were the twin aspects of a single entity, inseparable to the degree that apart they wouldn't be a whole entity. Human beings actually echo this kind of duality with the two hemispheres of their brain, but two-headed Ogres kind of take it to the Nth degree.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Also, what happens when a guy with two heads dies.

Like, does each head have its own soul? Was Gall finally all 'see you later, I'm my own head now!' and took off without Cho? Or was there one soul with two minds?

I think he'll still have 2 heads. Cho died with 2 heads so it makes sense he'll still have two heads in the afterlife. I wanna see see both Cho'ghall interact with each other. AU Cho became really powerful without mutating and even made Gul'dan look weak. Our Cho had to mutate to become strong. Wonder whose stronger between them.