Why Classic is So Successful as an MMO

[Azerox]

When a year is passed i have something to say about Classic and beiing successful
At start there were 15 rl mates playing but atm there are only 2 left.

[Elias01]

So...if the best can do it so easily...what makes you think a decent team of all 60's with okay gear can't walk into BWL and have some success?

Classic needs grouping, but once you get a group almost everything is faceroll unless half your team is afk.

Yes but retail doesnt need grouping. You can easly finish game solo without talking to anyone which is exactly why classic is better mmo game.

[Kithelle]

Yes but retail doesnt need grouping. You can easly finish game solo without talking to anyone which is exactly why classic is better mmo game.

You can't do endgame other than LFR and maybe normal without a decent group...most of Classic endgame is faceroll except Naxx.

People like you are entirely hung up on the color of gear...so what you can get epics easy enough...they still don't compare to mythic.

You think getting epics to skip raid tiers is silly...I think being able to raid a tier in blues and perhaps even greens is silly. Both are silly...doesn't mean Classic is superior though.

[Kralljin]

But then when you move to BfA, suddenly you are not comparing "best gear in the game", oh no, now we are just talking normal raid gear.

It just shows how you fundamentally fail to see the argument i'm making.

Someone who's willing to play with other people in a non automatically assigned fashion (=LFR; Dungeon Finder) should have better gear than someone who avoids any sort of content that requires interaction with other people.

Lets just be totally honest here - if you are lvl 60, and a healer, you can have a completely empty friend list, no guild, and simply sit in chat and be invited to the hardest content in the game, clear it in an hour or two, and, depending on loot rules, have a shot at getting the best gear in the game.

I think you're the one with reading comprehension issues here.
Yet again, did i mention anything about difficulty in my post? Nope, nothing.

The key factor here is the social aspect, some people don't want to put up with that, despite the fact that WoW is an MMO.
I've never made any argument regarding the difficulty, the key difference here is you're not getting raid equivalent gear unless you put up with other people.

If you do that via pug, that's okay, i've already explained that pugs are simply the basis for organized raiding but it's not like you can just wait a few days and still get gear that is on par with gear from raids in classic.

Being able to pug content is totally fine in my view, but there is still a world of difference between the willingness to pug and simply getting gear from content that usually requires a group being able to earn on their own, it undermines the MMO aspect of the game.

Not at any point, i've made the argument "Classic requires a guild", it doesn't, but it still requires you being willing to play with other people and not treat this game as a singe player game where you occassionally run into other people.

What is the difference? One is so easy you can skip a tier...or you can just earn gear to skip a tier.

Skipping tiers isn't generally done unless you basically have a guild that feeds you all the gear you need.
I mean, if you're fine with sitting on some blue / green items for months until a given item drops and you get it, that's your call, or you go into the "older" tier and grab the upgrade there to replace it.

If you ask now "why do it if you don't need it for progress?", then you should also ask any guild the same question is currently farming EP, because any gear from there lands in the trashbin once the next Season is fully released.
Because you replace any gear from EP via M+ within days if you farm it.

[arkanon]

Yes but retail doesnt need grouping. You can easly finish game solo without talking to anyone which is exactly why classic is better mmo game.

This is absolutely 100% possible in classic, and you dont even need to be max level. You are so far off base you are not even on the field anymore. To suggest that you can get from 1-120 and then get geared enough to run current mythic raids, and then complete said mythic raid without speaking to anyone and doing it all "solo" is the absolute highest degree of bullshit ever.

On the flip side, this is absolutely achievable in classic due to the sub lfr difficulty of all content, communication is not needed.

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It just shows how you fundamentally fail to see the argument i'm making.

Someone who's willing to play with other people in a non automatically assigned fashion (=LFR; Dungeon Finder) should have better gear than someone who avoids any sort of content that requires interaction with other people.

And they absolutely, 100% without a doubt do. You do understand that right? That a player with a large friend list and part of a dedicated Mythic raid guild will have better gear without question than some random solo guy.....you MUST understand that, surely?

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I think you're the one with reading comprehension issues here.
Yet again, did i mention anything about difficulty in my post? Nope, nothing.

The key factor here is the social aspect, some people don't want to put up with that, despite the fact that WoW is an MMO.
I've never made any argument regarding the difficulty, the key difference here is you're not getting raid equivalent gear unless you put up with other people.

.

And you continue to fail to realize something - if you only play solo, you WILL NOT have gear even remotely close to that of a mythic raider, heroic raider, or even a normal raider.

You make it sound like you hit 120, and even though you are ilvl 290, WQ automatically drop 440+ ilvl gear - this is completely false, and seems to be the core of your argument.

You are desperately trying to keep "difficulty" and "gear quality" out of the discussion, because you know that as soon as those two KEY FACTORS are introduced, your entire argument falls flat on its face. If you want to compare classic with retail, you must compare like for like.

[Stormspellz]

It screws people over for playing solo.

You cannot do instances, level effectively, raid or pvp consistently solo.

Newer games today cater to allowing people to play solo as an option, but even that isn't available in wow.

Yes, some classes can play solo, but they are the exception and cannot get raid loot if they spend all day ganking in iron forge while stealthed.\

What is wow's philosophy today?

"You can raid solo in shadowlands."

I would say two main factors, a living world and community with a strong seasoning of nostalgia

[relaxok]

I also managed to solo most of the dungeons and bosses until level 50 or so as a Rogue.

That’s the dumbest internet lie I’ve heard in a while (if you mean at-level)

[arkanon]

Not at any point, i've made the argument "Classic requires a guild", it doesn't, but it still requires you being willing to play with other people and not treat this game as a singe player game where you occassionally run into other people.

And like myself and others are saying, so does Retail, and it always has.

[Kithelle]

It just shows how you fundamentally fail to see the argument i'm making.

Someone who's willing to play with other people in a non automatically assigned fashion (=LFR; Dungeon Finder) should have better gear than someone who avoids any sort of content that requires interaction with other people.



I think you're the one with reading comprehension issues here.
Yet again, did i mention anything about difficulty in my post? Nope, nothing.

The key factor here is the social aspect, some people don't want to put up with that, despite the fact that WoW is an MMO.
I've never made any argument regarding the difficulty, the key difference here is you're not getting raid equivalent gear unless you put up with other people.

If you do that via pug, that's okay, i've already explained that pugs are simply the basis for organized raiding but it's not like you can just wait a few days and still get gear that is on par with gear from raids in classic.

Being able to pug content is totally fine in my view, but there is still a world of difference between the willingness to pug and simply getting gear from content that usually requires a group being able to earn on their own, it undermines the MMO aspect of the game.

Not at any point, i've made the argument "Classic requires a guild", it doesn't, but it still requires you being willing to play with other people and not treat this game as a singe player game where you occassionally run into other people.



Skipping tiers isn't generally done unless you basically have a guild that feeds you all the gear you need.
I mean, if you're fine with sitting on some blue / green items for months until a given item drops and you get it, that's your call, or you go into the "older" tier and grab the upgrade there to replace it.

If you ask now "why do it if you don't need it for progress?", then you should also ask any guild the same question is currently farming EP, because any gear from there lands in the trashbin once the next Season is fully released.
Because you replace any gear from EP via M+ within days if you farm it.

Vanilla wasn't particularly hard...you had people getting gear to make things easy. Back then there wasn't half a dozen sites telling you the best builds and rotations...the best raid comp. Back in Vanilla it was basically..."We need this many tanks and healers" and the rest was often filled with the people you could get to make it to 40 unless you were a dedicated guild.

Classic is even easier now that we know everything...I don't care if they were the 0.01% they completely facerolled the raids with more than half the team below 60 and severely undergeared. I'm not saying anyone can do that but no matter how much you deny it the content doesn't have any complexity...you can probably get a 40 man of 60's with greens and blues and complete MC/Onyxia.

We really have no idea how easy BWL may or may not be till it is released. But right now you can't say even the top 0.01% of WoW are doing mythic raids in greens/blues.

Both Classic and Retail have problems, problem with Classic players is some of them like to pretend Classic is flawless while Retail is a mess. Some of them have to lie about Classic to make it sound more like it is...like the myth that Classic is hard that to this day people try and claim.

[ClassicIsTerrible]

Nostalgia boner is the only reason it's successful. It's objectively the worst version of WoW from class design, class balance, badly itemized gear, raid/dungeon design. It's the worst version of the game.

[sam86]

u can lvl effective, in fact it is most effective to lvl solo unless u decide to lvl as prot or healer since lvl 1 (u know, u can lvl as dps and just respect at 60?)
but generally i agree, a mmo game shouldn't forget the MMO part of it

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Nostalgia boner is the only reason it's successful. It's objectively the worst version of WoW from class design, class balance, badly itemized gear, raid/dungeon design. It's the worst version of the game.

worst version ? did u forget selfie patch, or heck the rng lottery we have now called BFA ?

[munkeyinorbit]

You can get some, but certainly nothing approaching a real set, I agree.

Just because some random LFR/WQ hero only has ~10 ilvls lower than a good player thanks to luck doesn't mean that is actually "good gear." They probably have half the damage potential of someone geared correctly.

Wrong.
Ilvl for ilvl there is not a lot of difference for most specs regardless of stats. Saying that raid gear is twice as good as non raid gear is laughable especially when there are 3 to 4 items that are 425 that are bis for almost all dps. You don't even have to be lucky. Mythic raiders know this. Lfr people know this. BFA has turned the gearing process into a joke. You can get comparable or better than heroic raid gear solo. You can get some bis gear solo. Maybe op is right. It's not the only reason imo, but what is the point of raiding if you've cleared it once and finding people to do content is a huge struggle? Normal is too easy and heroic just brings bads looking for a carry.

Before you say "mYtHiC Is aLl thAT mAtTeRs", mythic in this context means nothing. This is about success and when you get your most participated modes dying, there is a problem. There is a significant portion of the community that likes to raid but they have been driven away by unfun classes, lack of pugs that can handle the content and gearing paths that are too easy.

[Lollis]

I recently cleared 4/8 EP M and was honestly surprised at just how simple it was. I think Radiance with two Stormwraiths was the only "oh shit" moment I had. The games difficulty increase has gone down very far.

Translation: I recently got carried by people who have done this content multiple times over the past couple of months, people who most likely are full 445+ already.

Try Ashvane or Sivara with multiple people who don't know wtf to do, especially if they have bad gear. Hell, try Behemoth with people who don't know wtf to do.

[Shaqthefat]

I recently cleared 4/8 EP M and was honestly surprised at just how simple it was. I think Radiance with two Stormwraiths was the only "oh shit" moment I had. The games difficulty increase has gone down very far.

You're delusional if you think Classic WoW raiding is more difficult than modern WoW raiding.

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Translation: I recently got carried by people who have done this content multiple times over the past couple of months, people who most likely are full 445+ already.

Try Ashvane or Sivara with multiple people who don't know wtf to do, especially if they have bad gear. Hell, try Behemoth with people who don't know wtf to do.

Yeah he was clearly carried. No one who has progressed mythic EP actually thinks Radiance is an "oh shit" boss.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yep thats why 80% of all classic realms have quque times and when i long into retail high populated realm there is like 5 people in OG and 12 in Dazalor.

Why would people be in the capitals? You can do everything out in the world. Why sit there afk in a capital when you could be out there doing something? Want to raid? Do WQ while your looking for a raid. Doing a m+? Do some herb farming while you fill the group. This obsession with people in a capital is a vanilla thing.

[Shaqthefat]

Difference is that this is done only by 0,01% of playerbase while most casuals players hasnt yet stept into mc or even killed first boss.

Fake statistic

[Kralljin]

And they absolutely, 100% without a doubt do. You do understand that right? That a player with a large friend list and part of a dedicated Mythic raid guild will have better gear without question than some random solo guy.....you MUST understand that, surely?

And where did i put that into question?
Please quote me where i said that.

or even a normal raider.

You're getting pretty equivalent gear.
Because Emissaries award 415 und Benthic items go up to 425.

So yeah, most certainly possible, especially if you take the actual powerlevel of the bentic items into account.

You make it sound like you hit 120, and even though you are ilvl 290, WQ automatically drop 440+ ilvl gear

No, i'm not.
You are just reading that into my posts for some reason

I especially reference Emissaries and Normal mode for a reason.
If i would have meant that, i would have said that.

Vanilla wasn't particularly hard...you had people getting gear to make things easy.

And where did i say the opposite?
Can you please read my posts and reply to what i'm actually saying?

Because i am asking you now the same question: Where did i say that Classic is harder on a mechanical level?

It's just like you flew over my post, said "oh this guy defends classic, better get out the same old arguments that worked the other time!" despite them not making a lick of sense here.

[arkanon]

You're getting pretty equivalent gear.
Because Emissaries award 415 und Benthic items go up to 425.

NOt when you are ilvl 290 they dont.

[Kralljin]

NOt when you are ilvl 290 they dont.

WQ's drop a shit ton of gear onto your head, you get them to that Ilvl within days.
I managed to do that on an alt during Season 2, where Benthic gear wasn't even a thing.

[Barzotti]

You're getting pretty equivalent gear.
Because Emissaries award 415 und Benthic items go up to 425.

So yeah, most certainly possible, especially if you take the actual powerlevel of the bentic items into account.

You have to be at least 408 ilvl to unlock 415 ilvl emissaries rewards (it's a bit time consuming to reach this ilvl while playing solo without getting carried in M+/raids). And Normal gear is a joke regardless; a piss easy M+5 rewards equivalent gear. While it's incredibly easy to get items, you're showered in shit items.

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WQ's drop a shit ton of gear onto your head, you get them to that Ilvl within days.
I managed to do that on an alt during Season 2, where Benthic gear wasn't even a thing.

They drop a shit ton of gear but their ilvl is close and relative to your current ilvl. If you ding level 120 the WQs will award something like 320 ilvl items.