WoW is a subscription game - why employ scummy F2P tactics?

[Azerate]

None of the paid services provided in WoW are "scummy". People who tout this bullshit have probably never seen a mobile game with their eyes. The cash shop in wow literally has a couple vanity items that you can buy if you want to support Blizz with a couple more bucks over the sub. None of the are exceptionally beautiful, nor are they much more beautiful than many other rewards you can just get in the game. People making a big deal out of this are either trying to gain popularity by jumping on the 'mtx hate' bandwagon (influencers) or get riled up by said influencers (their fanboys).

The offer of stuff available for real life money is extremely limited in wow, and there's no signs that this will change any time soon.

[Mojo03]

I personally think the fact this game has such a high subscription fee is a joke, that is unjustified, especially in the day and age of competition providing services like PSnow and Xbox game pass for $10 a month with literally hundreds of games, many actually great. The fact I have to pay $15 a month to access a game I paid for already, for seemingly no valid reason other than they can charge it and people pay, is outrageous. The 3 "free" content patches provided in each expansion life cycle are jokingly far from worth the cost of admission. If you buy an expansion and want access to it for its entire lifespan you're shelling out $360 for a shiny, pretty, mediocre distraction.

With that being said, the MTX for stuff like skins and mounts don't really bother me and I don't blame them for including them to make extra money off of whales. The prices are a joke, but if your willing to pay it, then your probably a whale and don't care. Go ahead and ride your $25 mount, you just look like a fool.

What does bother me, is the MTX for game services, like changing your name and server transfers. If I want to switch servers and factions for a paladin for example, I'd have to pay $55, which is a dumpster fire of trash exploitation. Not only that, all it is, is essentially a copy and paste. It's not like it cost the company literally almost anything, for it to be accomplished.

The company has almost zero respect and gratitude for their users and sees them as little more than a wallet. They never offer discounts or perks for loyal users or any kind of reward for having been subscribed for certain amounts of time and much of their hardcore fan base is so brainwashed and emotionally invested in them that they not only give in to them, they often rabidly attack and defend their master against anyone who tries to help them see they are being exploited and treated poorly.

There is genuine juxtapositions with the relationship this company has with its users to seeing a friend with an abusive spouse. It's too bad more people don't see it.

[Beefhammer]

My issue with the 'vote with your wallet' though is that it is a complete fallacy Jell, because the 80:20 system they have in place is designed fundamentally to not be affected by that. Think of it this way, its estimated that we are currently at lowest ever sub numbers, in retail, would you suggest that that is partly atleast people voting with their wallets, whether through protest at bad practice, or mostly through not finding the game fun (which could be attributed to corporate obsession with metrics) that is what people are doing.

I'd it's impossible to tell. I would love to see a chart of subs from EQ from start to current or even EQ2 just to see how closely related the curves are. WoW is predictably following a standard product life cycle curve. Could Blizzard have done some things differently to keep some players longer? Sure. Could that have driven off as many as it saved? Quite possibly. I remember reading the talk about no flying prior to the WoD release. It was pretty well known that there would not be flying at the start, then it went from no flying at all to we haven't figured out how to implement it, then it was flying will be in at some point later. I remember almost every other person claiming they would not be buying WoD. Then low and behold, 10M subs at the start.

I mention that because , people quite for 100s of different reasons and it is impossible to claim design decisions are the culprit, that if they were not made that game would still have 12M players. Not today with MOBAs and Arean Shooters being free and a lot easier to get into. Not with mobile gaming and the other multitude of free options. Even if WoW went F2P and only had cosmetics as shop purchases, we still would have seen this decline. It is normal, natural, and happens to every single product that has ever hit the market.

[Beefhammer]

Its a shame for sure Mojo, unfortunately most are just not intelligent enough to see it, not many have critical thought, you are absolutely correct, paying $360 a year and still not getting all the content developed for the game, and people have the brains to then come out with statements about how everyone complaining are entitled babies who expect all content, and that paying extra in an optional store to 'support devs' is fine. Personally, I cannot possibly fathom in my logic why they cant see what their sub fee is for, I dont know what they think it pays for but its a sad sad state we have gotten to where Blizzard can get away with charging more and more for everything they do.

As you said, zero gratitude to their users, we are wallets, nothing more, and its pure greed. I understand businesses only care about money and we all accept that, but its absolutely maddening to see consumers defend those who are screwing them.

You only pay $156-180 a month. I don't see how am getting screwed. You all use to day pets and mounts are not content. But now they are?The fee I used to pay and the one my wife pays got us access to all the zones, classes, races, dungeons, raids, BGs, and every thing else we wanted to do in game nothing was prohibited. I didn't have to spend one cent more to do anything in the game. If I wanted a different collection of pixels to ride around on, it was totally optional, I was not forced to make any purchase outside of my sub. My wife has had no problems doing Pet battle tournaments or Pet Battle PvP without those and have beaten many players with. So I guess I'm not smart enough to understand how spending money on something I enjoy and getting tons of enjoyment out of it is considered screwing me over.

[jellmoo]

My issue with the 'vote with your wallet' though is that it is a complete fallacy Jell, because the 80:20 system they have in place is designed fundamentally to not be affected by that. Think of it this way, its estimated that we are currently at lowest ever sub numbers, in retail, would you suggest that that is partly atleast people voting with their wallets, whether through protest at bad practice, or mostly through not finding the game fun (which could be attributed to corporate obsession with metrics) that is what people are doing.

The thing is, I've worked in 4 different studios or publishers over 15 years, and know a lot of people in the industry, and haven't encountered any company where 80/20 was applied like that. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I don't think it's as prevalent in North American companies the way you describe.

In the case of WoW, I really don't think it's going to apply like that simply because they place a massive value on a recurring subscription. It's a constant source of revenue that they will absolutely want to keep flowing. This is why they've done things like stop reporting sub numbers, adding timed exclusive items for people who sub for long periods of time, and are now releasing things like Classic as stopgaps for when numbers traditionally drop. I think that they really want that subscription to be constant. Even with paid services and cosmetics, that sub fee is their bread and butter.

Now, does one person affect them? Of course not. This is true of every game and every publisher. One person voting with their wallet doesn't amount to much. It's a stance of principle more than anything else. But this is also the fine line they walk. They know that cash shop[s of any kind will upset a segment of their gaming demo. They're counting on balancing what they offer in the shop between people who are upset by it as it exists, and though that aren't upset in its current form but would be if the added more P2W items. So while voting with your wallet may not have a direct impact, the noise you create can help steer the company away from taking a more aggressive step in the MTX they offer.

[Beefhammer]

Its a shame for sure Mojo, unfortunately most are just not intelligent enough to see it, not many have critical thought, you are absolutely correct, paying $360 a year and still not getting all the content developed for the game, and people have the brains to then come out with statements about how everyone complaining are entitled babies who expect all content, and that paying extra in an optional store to 'support devs' is fine. Personally, I cannot possibly fathom in my logic why they cant see what their sub fee is for, I dont know what they think it pays for but its a sad sad state we have gotten to where Blizzard can get away with charging more and more for everything they do.

As you said, zero gratitude to their users, we are wallets, nothing more, and its pure greed. I understand businesses only care about money and we all accept that, but its absolutely maddening to see consumers defend those who are screwing them.

- - - Updated - - -



No I understand how the metrics work Beef and how the corporate entity looks at their profits and why they do what they do, its just not friendly to the vast majority.

Remember, if you have 10 million subs, and under the 80:20 rule we can estimate that 2 million of those are incredibly susceptible to microtransactions, then those 2 million buying $20-30 mounts, $15 pets, if you are making say $500 per expansion of cosmetics, that are being purchased each by those 2 million players, then those 2 million players are making them more than all the other 8 million combined. They focus everything on that 2 million and dont care if it drives the other 8 million to quitting.

Of course WoW will experience a decline but its horrible to see a company start to use these tactics more and more.

I understand the Pareto Principle, and like stated by jellmoo they rely much more on their monthly sub revenue than the cash shop. If WoW were a F2P game I could see your point.

[Garymorilix]

Yeah of course you do, because if you did, then you wouldnt be making totally fucking incorrect statements, and arguing against the 80:20 rule which you obviously didnt learn.

Bernie rallies hahaha, im a conservative voter from the UK thanks. Guess that makes me a commie does it.

No what your fucking brain cant understand is that its got nothing to do with whether its fucking optional or not, why dont you fucking understand, ill say this for the last fucking time in the fucking hope you have it in you to understand.

THE REASON YOU PAY $15 A MONTH, IS TO PAY FOR DEVELOPMENT OF CONTENT, WHICH THEY ARE THEN SELLING SEPERATELY.

If you cant fucking understand why in a game that you pay $200 a year for, that you shouldnt be entitled to everything the devs are making being placed in game then this convesation is fucking over, take your imaginary business diploma and shove it up your ass because apparently its fucking worthless lol.


Thats some 10/10 stupid logic right there, saying this proves you right, when it literally dosent, because thats not how Netflix operates, Netflix purchase rights for everything from third parties for fixed terms, and then you get it under your sub fee, literally proves you have 0 understanding of business.

What 80:20 rule. I don't care about your rules. I argue against the notion that the in-game shop is in any way harmful. Which it isn't.

If you are not a whale, why the fuck do you care? If you don't smoke cigarettes, why do you care how much they cost? If you don't drink beer, why do you care how much they cost? If you don't buy gluten free rip-offs, why do you care what they cost?

I don't like a lot of things. Like many people. But I won't fckin barrage others for liking it with my moral highground cuz I think I'm their protector.
Know your place in the world.

You pay 15$ to have access to the gameplay. You can play the game, right? It's not like you need a sub for every single char, right? It's not like you need to pay 2$ every time you zone into a raid instance, right?
Those would be predatory tactics. Like the exact thing mobile games do.

Releasing a mount that sells for X for no impact or benefit, especially since these mounts are mostly charity driven, has literally no effect on the game. None.
Do you think skins in Moba games are predatory? Those are the exact same concept.
Do you think skins in shooters are predatory? Same shit.

The playerbase can manage demand. If you could actually buy gear for real money you would see people agree that it's beyond the line. Mounts tho? Don't even come near it. Grow up.
You are not entitled for anything. Paying 200$ is your decision in the first place. You know what you get for it. Man the fuck up and either admit to it or quit.

For someone who worked in the movie industry you have zero concept about showrunning.
HBO is a direct competitor to Netflix. GoT is one of their most profitable shows. Do you think they would just license it for shits and giggles?
Why do you think is that that Marvel can't make a solo Hulk movie? Mmmm? Ever thought of that?

The amount of money you're making should allow you to buy yourself that Flying ship or Feathery Lion whatever mount and shut up already.

[qwerty123456]

I've spent less on wow in 15 years than any one of the dozen or so F2P games I have played and many I have only played a year or two. And what sub game doesn't have microtransations?

And eventually wow is going to lose enough subs that it cant sustain itself. With the cash shop shit it will help it last longer.

[rhorle]

Essentially, most of their revenue comes from the people that cant quit because of the way their psychology is. So im discussing how greedy and terrible Blizzard is because they are fundamentally using a greedy and terrible tactic to make revenue.

Most of their revenue comes from subscriptions and box sales. They are not using a greedy and terrible tactic to make revenue. Blizzard would certainly care if they lost 80% of box and subscription revenue. 1 month and $60 box sale is 225 million for 3 million players. Cash Shop and other revenue generating items will not be making up for 180 million in lost revenue.

People protesting by not playing will certainly send a message to Blizzard. Because losing out on 80% of revenue stream will send a message to any business. Its funny that you think a company wouldn't care. Because they could easily try to keep that 80% while still capitalizing on whales for even more revenue.

Voting with your wallet has nothing to do with a 80/20 rule. It has everything to do with the amount of people that do it. If a dozen or so people do it then it isn't that significant. If 80% do it then it is a significant thing. The problem is that most of the time is the vocal minority that claims X is bad. It isn't significant enough to make a large impact on the way Blizzard does business because it isn't a statistically significant number.

[Big Thanks]

Most of their revenue comes from subscriptions and box sales. They are not using a greedy and terrible tactic to make revenue. Blizzard would certainly care if they lost 80% of box and subscription revenue. 1 month and $60 box sale is 225 million for 3 million players. Cash Shop and other revenue generating items will not be making up for 180 million in lost revenue.

People protesting by not playing will certainly send a message to Blizzard. Because losing out on 80% of revenue stream will send a message to any business. Its funny that you think a company wouldn't care. Because they could easily try to keep that 80% while still capitalizing on whales for even more revenue.

Voting with your wallet has nothing to do with a 80/20 rule. It has everything to do with the amount of people that do it. If a dozen or so people do it then it isn't that significant. If 80% do it then it is a significant thing. The problem is that most of the time is the vocal minority that claims X is bad. It isn't significant enough to make a large impact on the way Blizzard does business because it isn't a statistically significant number.

Both the current RaF and past/present false scarcity tactics are pretty scummy IMO.
Blizzard can pretend to have no idea what we are even talking about...but i 100% believe NO ONE is that naive. Specially not Blizzard.

RaF is the most shameless thing on the entire universe.

[McNeil]

This is a good example of why microtransactions are here to stay:

[Big Thanks]

So...what do you guys think of the coincidence of this thread hitting 18 pages and 357 foaming from the mouth replies and Blizzard puts out again a sale on cosmetics and shit that is accumulating views and foam from the mouth replies?

Just kinda like last years I think...it all feels so familiar.

- - - Updated - - -



Honest question. In what universe and world or bubble do you live? Really? Have you ever made the effort at looking into the RL around you, because here I thought maybe Nestlé claiming water is not a human right and should be controlled by corporations who buy water rights in countries and control the price who gets to use it was the most scummy thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzaV8tg6hno

But yeah...100 dollars on a cosmetic pixel item in a game that everyone can just safely walk away from takes the crown in your opinion. My priority is to try and never buy from Nestlé again instead.

The world of Warcraft universe. Better?

Well...at least only whales get hurt on this process. This and/or people with mental illness and addiction to WoW collectables

[Beefhammer]

Only?

You used to get all content in the game under that fee, did you forget that?

- - - Updated - - -



What? Loot boxes are a perfect example of 80:20 rule, Blizzard, EA, they all use them, Google Wilson loot boxes.

- - - Updated - - -



Kid you are talking absolute shit absolute the industry and defaulting to the shut up argument. You say you have a business diploma yet you dont even know what the 80:20 rule is, get out of here.

What content am I missing?

[jellmoo]

What? Loot boxes are a perfect example of 80:20 rule, Blizzard, EA, they all use them, Google Wilson loot boxes.

Except what you're describing is a specific situation related to free to play games that is generally mobile specific. It's featured in titles where the price of entry is zero. It basically dictates that the value of non-paying customers in unimportant when compared to ones that pay. In most cases when it comes to the titles we're talking about here, that situation doesn't exist. There is a real price of entry for most of these games. The general practice for WoW, for example would preclude the application of it as Blizzard places value on buying expansions and subscriptions. Most AAA titles as well as they have a price of entry, which the company places value on. They want you to buy the game.

Where this rule can be applied is on F2P games, but you have to look carefully at them. Titles like Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends, Apex Legends and the like. I don't think any of these fall under that "rule" simply because the companies seem to care about the longevity of the title. They know that if they just cater to whales, they will lose their customers fast.

[Beefhammer]

Except what you're describing is a specific situation related to free to play games that is generally mobile specific. It's featured in titles where the price of entry is zero. It basically dictates that the value of non-paying customers in unimportant when compared to ones that pay. In most cases when it comes to the titles we're talking about here, that situation doesn't exist. There is a real price of entry for most of these games. The general practice for WoW, for example would preclude the application of it as Blizzard places value on buying expansions and subscriptions. Most AAA titles as well as they have a price of entry, which the company places value on. They want you to buy the game.

Where this rule can be applied is on F2P games, but you have to look carefully at them. Titles like Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends, Apex Legends and the like. I don't think any of these fall under that "rule" simply because the companies seem to care about the longevity of the title. They know that if they just cater to whales, they will lose their customers fast.

As I have stated before, all these cosmetics are account shared as well, which I believe precludes predatory scheming. Since each item is only required to be purchased once so you can have it on 50+ characters. There is no incentive to have these items as well, unlike the predatory items seen in most F2P games. Nothing is time gated that can be avoided simply by buying an item. You get nothing if ingame value faster by making a purchase. Sure others may feel left out or insecure because of a mount or pet, but that doesn't make the shop, or even a sale, or even an artificial supply cut that was announced a year in advance, predatory.


I'll eat crow if 20% of the player base has the Brutosaur when SL launches.

[Beefhammer]

All the mounts in the store not being available through achievements, drops, vendors etc like they were in the past. Dont kid yourself, your sub fee is being used to pay artists for WoW content, therefore by nature of the fact you already paid your sub, you should have access to it, instead, they just package it up and try to ask for more money for it.

- - - Updated - - -



No its not Jellmoo sorry but thats a load of garbage. OW you pay an upfront fee to play, then its filled with lootboxes. FIFA, you pay for the game, and then ultimate team is filled with predatory lootboxes. Starwars battlefront, you paid unfront, and it was filled with lootboxes, Call of Duty (the last title) was filled full of lootboxes and weapon unlock purchases. Thats literally what this entire thread proves. These things are fine in a free to play game, but not in ANY of the games I listed above.

I dont care if Apex or LoL has it, thats fine, but not any of the others.

Again you guys can't claim cosmetics aren't content when announced for expansions and patches, but count them as content just because they are on the shop.

[jellmoo]

No its not Jellmoo sorry but thts a load of garbage. OW you pay an upfront fee to play, then its filled with lootboxes. FIFA, you pay for the game, and then ultimate team is filled with predatory lootboxes. Starwars battlefront, you paid unfront, and it was filled with lootboxes, Call of Duty (the last title) was filled full of lootboxes and weapon unlock purchases. Thats literally what this entire thread proves. These things are fine in a free to play game, but not in ANY of the games I listed above.

I dont care if Apex or LoL has it, thats fine, but not any of the others.

You're not arguing the same point here though. Your argument is that these companies are emplouting the 80/20 rule essentially stating that 80% of the development is going to cater 20% of the playerbase, and I don't believe that it's true in *most* of these cases. A team like the OW team obviously cares about more than just loot box buyers as they are still creating a a game where balance is heavily being tweaked, which is something that loot boxes have nothing to do with. They also want to keep it running as a competitive e-sport.

If you want to argue that any loot boxes are inherently bad in a game with an upfront cost that's fine (I'd disagree, but that's neither here nor there) but that does not mean that these studios are catering their games to whales because that's simply not the case in *most* scenarios.

[Nfinitii]

I'm talking about utter crap like:
-store mounts
-character boosts
-"get this now before it's too late and we arbitrarily remove it"
-purchasable cosmetics
-whale targeting
-cute fox people

I mean yeah sure it allows Activi$$ion Bill$$ard to rake in more money but it damages the integrity of the game. You'd expect to see crap like this in games like League of Legends and all of those billions of mobile "clash of clashes" clones. Not a monthly-sub based game like WoW.

Listen up, Kotick. If you want to suck $$$ out of your hapless victims then by all means do so but do it in a separate mobile game that is clearly designed to bleed the whales dry. Leave WoW alone and let us have our fantasy RPG.

U don’t have to buy any of that stuff, and u don’t lose anything if u don’t.

U want to blame someone? Blame the players, if they didn’t pay for that stuff then game developers wouldn’t do it. If anything blizzard has been really mild in their micro transactions, they could easily have way more stuff to buy and be making way more money.

[Beefhammer]

Maybe you quoted the wrong person, im confused, never said anything like that.

Mounts and pets on the store are absolutely content for world of warcraft.

Not you personally, but in general, cosmetics, mounts, and pets have since this forum existed, have ever been considered content and people who list them as content features are typically ridiculed claiming they are not content.

[jellmoo]

Of course the developers care a hell of a lot more about the game than anything else, just like the modern warfare devs do, they pour their heart soul and passion into these projects, its the corporate uppers that ruin it by monetizing everything they do to squeeze players as much as possible, the modern warefare lead dev and community manager openly talked about this last or the month before.

I fundamentally dont see or believe, how Blizzard can charge for the expansion, and then a 15 dollar sub fee, and still not give the playerbase access to all the content possible in their product, I just cant see it. If they werent charging a sub fee and they sold mounts on the store sure, but not while they are charging 15 dollars. I know WHY they are, but is it right under this model, absolutely not in my eyes.

Do you see the distinction im making here. I understand with 100% clarity why and how this model exists, the finances behind it, how the uppers see it, its just in my eyes, theres a certain amount they can get away with in games, and in WoW's sub model, its too much to ask for more from a store.

And I think that a distinction does need to be made because what they offer for extra:

- Does not impact gameplay
- Are "luxury" items

Most importantly, it keeps costs for the bulk of the playerbase down. We have not seen an increase in cost for subscriptions over the years. I would rather that they introduce MTX vanity items that some people like to buy and keep the sub cost down, rather than raise the sub cost for everyone.