Jailer is good, Arbiter is evil

[mickybrighteyes]

There's a difference in fighting a war where children may end up being victimized in the process and deliberately murdering innocents, among which lots of children.

I think this is going to be an issue of semantics cause for one, Sylvanas hasn't murdered anyone directly except for Saurfang and Zelling in recent storylines and then there's the issue that deaths condemned as a result of war are still effectively killed by whoever ordered the war regardless of their intent in the war.

Dialing it back to being different because one wants pointless deaths is fine... but LEAD with that instead. Children have been murdered and killed because others wanted to assert their dominance and others wanted to make sure they were safe from future harm, the context of these different ideas of 'killing chilrden' can be very different.

[Oneirophobia]

seeing how hard Blizzard tries to make Sylvanas look like the misunderstood hero, i can see them doing something like this.

come 9.3, we have a cutscene with the big reveal of "OMG Sylavanas was never evil, who would habe guessed!?" and a smug-looking Sylvanas....

They've only doubled down on "just kidding she's not morally grey she's basically arthas but for no reason because she isn't doing it for anyone other than herself"

If she's been good the whole time, it'll be a tough sell. I gave up hope that she was just being tsundere when she did to Dalaryn what arthas did to her.

[matrix123mko]

When you consider that the Kyrians are erasing people's identities and memories(without their consent by the way) so they can better serve the afterlife, and this is presented as the good thing and WoW's version of heaven.. Yeah I could totally see this happening. The Arbiter is a bitch that sends people to serve the afterlife and have them tortured to make them better. The Jailer just tortures people. Yup. Totally good. Tons of nuance there.

Great writing Blizzard.

I think it is a bit of hyperbole that there needs to be any good afterlife. I quite like the story where everything seems bad.

[mickybrighteyes]

That wasn't the argument, the argument was whether she was a good guy or not.

I will still point out that Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters. Her orders have resulted in deaths but at the same time almost every leader has issued such commands. Even Baine has ordered the player to kill horde forces personally.

- - - Updated - - -

That wasn't the argument, the argument was whether she was a good guy or not.

I will still point out that Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters. Her orders have resulted in deaths but at the same time almost every leader has issued such commands. Even Baine has ordered the player to kill horde forces personally.

[The Butt Witch]

Naaaah... Patriots fight for their country.... Traitors colude with the enemy.

Until the leader of the country is a tyrant, and the only way to take him down is to ally with his enemies which are usually other countries.

[Yarathir]

I think this is going to be an issue of semantics cause for one, Sylvanas hasn't murdered anyone directly except for Saurfang and Zelling in recent storylines and then there's the issue that deaths condemned as a result of war are still effectively killed by whoever ordered the war regardless of their intent in the war.

Dialing it back to being different because one wants pointless deaths is fine... but LEAD with that instead. Children have been murdered and killed because others wanted to assert their dominance and others wanted to make sure they were safe from future harm, the context of these different ideas of 'killing chilrden' can be very different.

No, see, what you are doing here is pedantry. I am all for not making Sylvanas a sole scapegoat in this mess. God knows Blizzard definitely wants to do that so that the Horde, which is complicit, gets off scot-free as they usually do.

But there is no arguing that Sylvanas very clearly pushed for the burning of Teldrassil, a conscious act and command to have a great enough portion of the Night Elf population wiped out, most of which innocent noncombatants among which children, that it was called a genocide. That's the whole point.

[wanax]

She's evil and a villain. Y'all need to stop with the 'but muh waifu is gudddd!!!' fan-fiction, its embarrassing.

Don’t forget one of their head writers feels this way about her.

[Yarathir]

Until the leader of the country is a tyrant, and the only way to take him down is to ally with his enemies which are usually other countries.

And until the leader of the country says said country is NOTHINGGGG and flies out of there, leaving said country behind and allying with an enemy that wants to kill the populace of all countries.

[Makabreska]

So because someone sends all the souls to the maw she genocides elves?

Not sure who you are talking about now. Jailer? Yes. If he tells his agent to instigate it on Azeroth, he is an accomplice in genocide. Sylvi? That doesn't really need an explanation.

I will still point out that Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters. Her orders have resulted in deaths but at the same time almost every leader has issued such commands. Even Baine has ordered the player to kill horde forces personally.

You are REALLY stretching it, comparing Sylvi burning alive 10k nelf civilians to fuel supernatural being with "kill these soldiers" orders. And "Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters"? Really??? Well then, guess all those rl genocidal leaders weren't THAT bad, I mean they didn't kill all these people by themselves. It was just the orders, man.

[huth]

Ye ok, but all these souls are send there, because he made a deal with Sylvi.

All souls are sent to the Maw and he made a deal with Sylvanas. We have not seen evidence of a causal link between the two events so far, although there likely is one.

[Newname1234567890]

seeing how hard Blizzard tries to make Sylvanas look like the misunderstood hero, i can see them doing something like this.

come 9.3, we have a cutscene with the big reveal of "OMG Sylavanas was never evil, who would habe guessed!?" and a smug-looking Sylvanas....

How...

Id say the exact opposite was true. They couldn't make her seem more evil of they tried

[grexly75]

Well here is Bellular's take on all of this, and it is that the Jailer looks to be the one who is evil.. And the Arbiter looks to be neither, and he talks about how with what Sylvanas has done to the Lich King she may have upset the balance or something to that effect.. And my take on that is that the Jailer is probably planning a hostile take over of sorts of the Shadowlands..

[Niroshi]

The surprise twist end boss thing is more a Final Fantasy trope, less so Blizzard. Most likely the Jailer and the Arbiter are going to be exactly what they said they were.

[Sondrelk]

The surprise twist end boss thing is more a Final Fantasy trope, less so Blizzard. Most likely the Jailer and the Arbiter are going to be exactly what they said they were.

We need not do muhc more than remember what happened after the Blizzcon BfA was revealed.
The forums spent months upon months trying to come up with theories that would explain why Sylvanas was not evil, and even with that i think most people were convinced she did it, and lo and behold, once the pre-patch came out rturns out that Sylvanas did it all along.

Blizz writing is not complex, it is setpiece heavy and reliant on Good vs. Evil.

[mickybrighteyes]

No, see, what you are doing here is pedantry. I am all for not making Sylvanas a sole scapegoat in this mess. God knows Blizzard definitely wants to do that so that the Horde, which is complicit, gets off scot-free as they usually do.

But there is no arguing that Sylvanas very clearly pushed for the burning of Teldrassil, a conscious act and command to have a great enough portion of the Night Elf population wiped out, most of which innocent noncombatants among which children, that it was called a genocide. That's the whole point.

I didn't say Sylvanas didn't push for the burning. But commanding combat actions isn't the same as murder (to be clear I view murder as the physical act of killing, once it's relegated to a third party or underlings it isn't the same thing). Now, again, Sylvanas isn't the first or only leader to issue a command that resulted in whole sale slaughter of non-combatants, she isn't even the most recent one given how the story has unfolded... But people will fixate on teldrassil.

Also, Teldrassil was not the first genocide... it just seems to be the only one the vocal majority of the audience demands justice for.

[qwerty123456]

If the Arbiter chooses where people go and is evil why hasn't she just been sending everyone to the maw since the beginning of time?

[Sondrelk]

I didn't say Sylvanas didn't push for the burning. But commanding combat actions isn't the same as murder (to be clear I view murder as the physical act of killing, once it's relegated to a third party or underlings it isn't the same thing). Now, again, Sylvanas isn't the first or only leader to issue a command that resulted in whole sale slaughter of non-combatants, she isn't even the most recent one given how the story has unfolded... But people will fixate on teldrassil.

Also, Teldrassil was not the first genocide... it just seems to be the only one the vocal majority of the audience demands justice for.

So you do not see the important distinction between, say, Anduin ordering an attack on Dazar'alor after it became clear they were allied with the Horde, and Sylvanas ordering the burning of Teldrassil after she was informed there were only non-combatants left.

- - - Updated - - -

If the Arbiter chooses where people go and is evil why hasn't she just been sending everyone to the maw since the beginning of time?

Clearly she was just waiting for Sylvanas to pin the blame on, it all makes so much sense. Sylvanas was just killing civilians by the thousands and ordering costly military maneuvers to create an army of civilians to topple her.

i am sure it makes perfect sense if you are tired after spending the entirety of BfA trying to excuse Sylvanas' actions.

[Newname1234567890]

So because someone sends all the souls to the maw she genocides elves?

Not she genocided elves because....i mean she literally did that

[Kaleredar]

Trust me, the “heaven is ACTUALLY hell, THE DEVIL was the good guy all along!” Trope is not very unique or interesting.

[mickybrighteyes]

You are REALLY stretching it, comparing Sylvi burning alive 10k nelf civilians to fuel supernatural being with "kill these soldiers" orders.

Going into the event this was not known... hell this wasn't revealed until we were looking at leaks and reveals for the future expansion... so cool how we can feel justified with our future hind sight to judge events.

mean while people use the simplest ways to describe the event as the highest form of denouncement like such events as killing civilians/children/allies/henchmen/etc is exclusive. Newsflash, genocide/patricide/matricide/betrayal has all been done by various figures on all sides and was major plot points of our own acts that includes a laundry list of warcrimes (to include feigning surrender to gain advantage in battles).

this isn't an argument saying Sylvanas isn't evil... this is trying to draw attention to the very poor way people justify their denouncement of one character while others that have committed similar acts continue to exist in heroic idealization. Or have people forgotten how Illidan and Jaina have turned out or what they did to get where they are?

And "Sylvanas hasn't been shown killing anyone except for key characters"? Really???

If we're talking murder or executions that really only falls to Zelling and Nathanos' cousin. in Battle for named characters? Garithos, Saurfang, Calia, Genn's son... I'd add Varimathras but he didn't die. Many other kills are attributed via her being in command rather than her kills.... but in the same vein of attributing underling's kills to leaders her actions in cataclysm would still fall back to Garrosh as he was the one in charge and forcing events.

Well then, guess all those rl genocidal leaders weren't THAT bad, I mean they didn't kill all these people by themselves. It was just the orders, man.

I know people like you will always say this like it's some sort of witty quip... but the thing is people around these forums and the writing team actually use this mentality for some of the forces in the game and it's beyond poor handling of story progression to have the entire story bend over backwards to brings things back to the status quo.

- - - Updated - - -

So you do not see the important distinction between, say, Anduin ordering an attack on Dazar'alor after it became clear they were allied with the Horde, and Sylvanas ordering the burning of Teldrassil after she was informed there were only non-combatants left.

the issue with Dazar'alor is that they WEREN'T allied with the horde until after Alliance forces came in and killed the king, sacked the fleet, ruined the treasury and killed who knows how many zandalari along the way...

See there is a difference between events, yes, but people act like "she killed children!" is the biggest thing when no shit... kids die when war strikes their homes. Anduin launches a preemptive strike to try to force teh Zandalari to NOT ally with the horde with explicit orders to not take things too far but that doesn't stop his forces from ruining the fleet, killing the king and carving a bloody path across the nation because of something that only happened because of the attack.

Again, Teldrassil isn't a unique event except for it's scale and how much the story falls back to remind us.

Also... are you saying the word of an advanced scout who was captured in the field's word should be taken as true when discussing the state of a location they aren't in?

Now because everyone will take that to mean something else a disclaimer. I am not saying Teldrassil wasn't a terrible event. I am not saying Sylvanas is good. I am not saying killing kids isn't evil...

I AM saying that when people are painting their targets for moral judgement they should probably pick some higher hanging fruit.