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  1. #41
    OP, time between events has always been one of the shakiest elements around the RTS games, as Metzen always wrote rule of cool and ignored anything that didn't fit into place. In one version, there's only a short time period between WC2 and 3, like you're referencing. In another, an entire generation of orcs is born and grown to full adulthood (roughly twenty years) in the interment camps and innocent of the Old Horde's horrors. Those two wildly contradict, so Metzen just ignored it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    and the Death Knights saying "For Ner'Zhul" at times.
    I think it was the Acolytes, who said that.

    And that isn't enough to verify for you that Ner'zhul is the Lich King? I think it was even part of the WC2 manual. Yes, Ner'zhul was clearly the Lich King in Warcraft 3.

  3. #43
    Yes. The dialogue from the undead campaign is pretty conclusive. Honestly I don't understand how this thread even exists if you played W3

    Google for the Dreadlords Convene, the interlude at the beginning of reign of chaos undead campaign

  4. #44
    Lich King in W3 is referred often as Ner'Zhul. Even undead units refer to him. For example Acolyte says: "My life for Ner'zhul."

  5. #45
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    He appeared as the Lich King in WC3, yes. During the cutscene where Tichondrius meets with Anetheron and Mephistroth they even mention him by his name: Ner'zhul.


    I'm not sure if the "Rise of the Horde" novel touches on it or not, but when Ner'zhul attempted to open all of those portals in Draenor (which subsequently tore the planet apart creating Outland) and escaped into them, he was caught by Kil'jaeden and transformed into the entity which would later be referred to as the Lich King.


    Quote Originally Posted by blaatschaap View Post
    Yes. The dialogue from the undead campaign is pretty conclusive. Honestly I don't understand how this thread even exists if you played W3

    No comprehension I suppose.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Hmm...interesting. I wonder if they originally intended Warcraft 3 to take place longer after Warcraft 2 then? Warcraft 3 always seems to give the impression of the Lich King being such an ancient, dark force in the world.
    I read a couple of your quotes and I am not sure where you are getting your info from from wc3 or if you skipped bunch of parts while playing/misinterpreted some things? To clear few things up for you:

    Firstly, even the undead npcs/cultists have quotes like "My life for nerzhul and "for the lich king" so it is pretty obvious that he existed and was referred by both of the names. If you got too used to the Arthas model - google how LK model looked like stuck in ice in wc3 and you can see why he was called the "lich" king

    Lk description existed in game manual and I still have it in my old room in my parents house I think It was pretty detailed description of him and made it clear that it was Nerzhul.

    In game, there is no references to LK that makes him look "ancient". He is mysterious for sure but that doesn't mean ancient. What were ancient in the expansion were the nerubians which are not directly related to LK, just one of the races that LK dominated after establishing in Icecrown. Anubarak/underground missions were there to provide backstory for anubarak and the nerubian kingdoms as well as an introduction/easter egg for the old gods with the "faceless one". (For the people who thought the ulduar/old god patch felt out of the blue in wotlk - the roots of the old god in northrend goes all the way back to wc3)
    On top of that, in the beginning of the wc3 we are sent to investigate "the new plague" and then encounter the new mystery cult so it was made pretty obvious that this was something new.

    + Tich explains how frostmourne ended up in Arthas's hands and goes into the story of LK's origin/purpose as well within the story missions.
    +There is a whole exposition "walk" that arthas takes with KT before one of the missions where KT explains more of LK's backstory and origions, as well as, motivations.


    P.S - Contrary to popular belief, blizz's writing was never "good" and had a lot of holes in the story + they always preferred rule of cool over logic/consistency. However, the origins/backstory of LK is not one of these problems and is actually quite fleshed out and consistent for the most part (until upcoming shadowlands BS). There are major major problems with the LK story tho, for example:

    1) the "ice" that LK was originally trapped in wasn't some random ice, it was a twisting nether crystal which KJ put him in to enhance and amplify his telepathic powers to a godly degree that he had control over all the undead on azeroth through it. However, when Arthas shattered it and put the helm on, he should have lost this power and only had control over undead on a limited proximity since he no longer had nether crystal powering him.

    1.2) why the fuck did bolvar trapped himself in a random piece of ice after the LK fight? I understand they wanted him to look like OG LK, but knowing the above its completely pointless/the rule of cool only.

    2)also, if his plan was to merge with arthas, what was stopping him from merging with one of his own powerful undead commanders as a temporary body beforehand, since we see that bolvar took the helm after arthas no problem, there could have been someone before arthas as well and LK could have even met him half way!

    3) We learn early on that LK claimed the soul of arthas as soon as he grabbed frostmourne in the game. how come after LK commanded arthas to make his way to the throne to "merge" with him, nerzhul didn't have full control. We know from the novel that it was arthas that took control somehow? although his soul should have been trapped in frostmourne and under LKs control.

    4) there are bunch more but ill /endrant.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    I read a couple of your quotes and I am not sure where you are getting your info from from wc3 or if you skipped bunch of parts while playing/misinterpreted some things? To clear few things up for you:

    Firstly, even the undead npcs/cultists have quotes like "My life for nerzhul and "for the lich king" so it is pretty obvious that he existed and was referred by both of the names. If you got too used to the Arthas model - google how LK model looked like stuck in ice in wc3 and you can see why he was called the "lich" king

    Lk description existed in game manual and I still have it in my old room in my parents house I think It was pretty detailed description of him and made it clear that it was Nerzhul.

    In game, there is no references to LK that makes him look "ancient". He is mysterious for sure but that doesn't mean ancient. What were ancient in the expansion were the nerubians which are not directly related to LK, just one of the races that LK dominated after establishing in Icecrown. Anubarak/underground missions were there to provide backstory for anubarak and the nerubian kingdoms as well as an introduction/easter egg for the old gods with the "faceless one". (For the people who thought the ulduar/old god patch felt out of the blue in wotlk - the roots of the old god in northrend goes all the way back to wc3)
    On top of that, in the beginning of the wc3 we are sent to investigate "the new plague" and then encounter the new mystery cult so it was made pretty obvious that this was something new.

    + Tich explains how frostmourne ended up in Arthas's hands and goes into the story of LK's origin/purpose as well within the story missions.
    +There is a whole exposition "walk" that arthas takes with KT before one of the missions where KT explains more of LK's backstory and origions, as well as, motivations.


    P.S - Contrary to popular belief, blizz's writing was never "good" and had a lot of holes in the story + they always preferred rule of cool over logic/consistency. However, the origins/backstory of LK is not one of these problems and is actually quite fleshed out and consistent for the most part (until upcoming shadowlands BS). There are major major problems with the LK story tho, for example:

    1) the "ice" that LK was originally trapped in wasn't some random ice, it was a twisting nether crystal which KJ put him in to enhance and amplify his telepathic powers to a godly degree that he had control over all the undead on azeroth through it. However, when Arthas shattered it and put the helm on, he should have lost this power and only had control over undead on a limited proximity since he no longer had nether crystal powering him.

    1.2) why the fuck did bolvar trapped himself in a random piece of ice after the LK fight? I understand they wanted him to look like OG LK, but knowing the above its completely pointless/the rule of cool only.

    2)also, if his plan was to merge with arthas, what was stopping him from merging with one of his own powerful undead commanders as a temporary body beforehand, since we see that bolvar took the helm after arthas no problem, there could have been someone before arthas as well and LK could have even met him half way!

    3) We learn early on that LK claimed the soul of arthas as soon as he grabbed frostmourne in the game. how come after LK commanded arthas to make his way to the throne to "merge" with him, nerzhul didn't have full control. We know from the novel that it was arthas that took control somehow? although his soul should have been trapped in frostmourne and under LKs control.

    4) there are bunch more but ill /endrant.
    All very true, couldnt have said it better.

    3) thats just blizzard being blizzard and retconning the shit out of their lore. at the end of wc3, when arthas climbed the frozen throne, he wasnt more than a puppet, completely loyal and ready to do anything ner'zhul would command him to do. when blizzard planned wotlk, they made arthas his own master again and gave him the "free will" to usurp ner'zhul, simply because arthas was the most popular character back in WC3, and they figured it would draw more people in if Arhas was now the big bad, instead of the puppet he was in WC3. its ofc bullshit, story-wise, but it is what it is now.

    edit: oh and 1) and 1.2) is basically the same thing, its not some special "diamond hard" ice anymore, it was just normal ice they put ner'zhul in, and bolvar froze himself as a symbolic act, he was a jailer and yet himself jailed.
    whats funny is, in WoD, mograine talks about how bolvar is trapped by the frozen thrones ice, yet he easily escaped that shit off-screen for SL cinematic. gj blizz
    Last edited by Houle; 2019-11-30 at 05:53 PM.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    All very true, couldnt have said it better.

    3) thats just blizzard being blizzard and retconning the shit out of their lore. at the end of wc3, when arthas climbed the frozen throne, he wasnt more than a puppet, completely loyal and ready to do anything ner'zhul would command him to do. when blizzard planned wotlk, they made arthas his own master again and gave him the "free will" to usurp ner'zhul, simply because arthas was the most popular character back in WC3, and they figured it would draw more people in if Arhas was now the big bad, instead of the puppet he was in WC3. its ofc bullshit, story-wise, but it is what it is now.
    Was it though?

    In this specific quest from WotLK https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo Lich King says "I was once a shaman."

    Obviously, Arthas wouldn't say that.

    They were still following the "we are one" line from WC3 end cinematic.

    Nothing inside the game before Cata even suggested that Arthas took full control. Its only several NPCs that adress him as such - they would have no way of knowing that though, so they are just assuming.

    Uther in ICC cemented it by wondering if small part of Lich King that is Arthas is what holds the Scourge at bay (of course Blizzard later claimed Uther didn't know what he was talking about - except there is no Uther, only Blizz writers, who present their ideas through NPCs).

    And when Lich King talks to Jaina and/or Sylvanas in the Halls of Reflection... its obvious it isnt Arthas talking. Especially regarding Sylvanas, he has completely different attitude than how he treated her when he was Death Knight.

    So, its that stupid Rise of the Lich King novel that turned the lore upside down. I'm convinced Christie Golden knew nothing about actual lore, but Blizzard wanted to sell the book so they went along with it .
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    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    I read a couple of your quotes and I am not sure where you are getting your info from from wc3 or if you skipped bunch of parts while playing/misinterpreted some things? To clear few things up for you:

    Firstly, even the undead npcs/cultists have quotes like "My life for nerzhul and "for the lich king" so it is pretty obvious that he existed and was referred by both of the names. If you got too used to the Arthas model - google how LK model looked like stuck in ice in wc3 and you can see why he was called the "lich" king

    Lk description existed in game manual and I still have it in my old room in my parents house I think It was pretty detailed description of him and made it clear that it was Nerzhul.

    In game, there is no references to LK that makes him look "ancient". He is mysterious for sure but that doesn't mean ancient. What were ancient in the expansion were the nerubians which are not directly related to LK, just one of the races that LK dominated after establishing in Icecrown. Anubarak/underground missions were there to provide backstory for anubarak and the nerubian kingdoms as well as an introduction/easter egg for the old gods with the "faceless one". (For the people who thought the ulduar/old god patch felt out of the blue in wotlk - the roots of the old god in northrend goes all the way back to wc3)
    On top of that, in the beginning of the wc3 we are sent to investigate "the new plague" and then encounter the new mystery cult so it was made pretty obvious that this was something new.

    + Tich explains how frostmourne ended up in Arthas's hands and goes into the story of LK's origin/purpose as well within the story missions.
    +There is a whole exposition "walk" that arthas takes with KT before one of the missions where KT explains more of LK's backstory and origions, as well as, motivations.


    P.S - Contrary to popular belief, blizz's writing was never "good" and had a lot of holes in the story + they always preferred rule of cool over logic/consistency. However, the origins/backstory of LK is not one of these problems and is actually quite fleshed out and consistent for the most part (until upcoming shadowlands BS). There are major major problems with the LK story tho, for example:

    1) the "ice" that LK was originally trapped in wasn't some random ice, it was a twisting nether crystal which KJ put him in to enhance and amplify his telepathic powers to a godly degree that he had control over all the undead on azeroth through it. However, when Arthas shattered it and put the helm on, he should have lost this power and only had control over undead on a limited proximity since he no longer had nether crystal powering him.

    1.2) why the fuck did bolvar trapped himself in a random piece of ice after the LK fight? I understand they wanted him to look like OG LK, but knowing the above its completely pointless/the rule of cool only.

    2)also, if his plan was to merge with arthas, what was stopping him from merging with one of his own powerful undead commanders as a temporary body beforehand, since we see that bolvar took the helm after arthas no problem, there could have been someone before arthas as well and LK could have even met him half way!

    3) We learn early on that LK claimed the soul of arthas as soon as he grabbed frostmourne in the game. how come after LK commanded arthas to make his way to the throne to "merge" with him, nerzhul didn't have full control. We know from the novel that it was arthas that took control somehow? although his soul should have been trapped in frostmourne and under LKs control.

    4) there are bunch more but ill /endrant.

    I'll admit, there isn't anything in Warcraft 3 that explicitly makes the Lich King out to be ancient, it's more of a general impression and presentation.

    Again, my confusion isn't over the canon, I know what the canon is. I'm more thinking about the intent of the writers of Warcraft 3. What were they thinking at the time?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    He appeared as the Lich King in WC3, yes. During the cutscene where Tichondrius meets with Anetheron and Mephistroth they even mention him by his name: Ner'zhul.


    I'm not sure if the "Rise of the Horde" novel touches on it or not, but when Ner'zhul attempted to open all of those portals in Draenor (which subsequently tore the planet apart creating Outland) and escaped into them, he was caught by Kil'jaeden and transformed into the entity which would later be referred to as the Lich King.





    No comprehension I suppose.
    Look, Warcraft 3 is a long game. I've played through it several times, but obviously my brain can't hold all the details. I forgot about the conversation between the dreadlords.

    Aside from that, you only have the dialogue of the Acolytes and the DK's, which is vague. Saying "For Ner'Zhul" doesn't necessarily = Ner'Zhul is the Lich King.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    "Call back"
    the undead laugh in your face as trying to dismiss something that is canon as a pop-culture reference to something years before.
    *Sigh*, i'm not trying to prove a point. Nor am I talking about the "canon" (I know the Canon, it's in Chronicle), just what the writers of Warcraft 3 were thinking back in the day. I'm just asking a question. And the fact is, the Acolytes dialogue isn't conclusive.

    That said, I forgot about the dreadlord conversation, which does prove that Ner'Zhul was supposed to be the Lich King in Warcraft 3. Though that raises other questions.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    Was it though?

    In this specific quest from WotLK https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo Lich King says "I was once a shaman."

    Obviously, Arthas wouldn't say that.

    They were still following the "we are one" line from WC3 end cinematic.

    Nothing inside the game before Cata even suggested that Arthas took full control. Its only several NPCs that adress him as such - they would have no way of knowing that though, so they are just assuming.

    Uther in ICC cemented it by wondering if small part of Lich King that is Arthas is what holds the Scourge at bay (of course Blizzard later claimed Uther didn't know what he was talking about - except there is no Uther, only Blizz writers, who present their ideas through NPCs).

    And when Lich King talks to Jaina and/or Sylvanas in the Halls of Reflection... its obvious it isnt Arthas talking. Especially regarding Sylvanas, he has completely different attitude than how he treated her when he was Death Knight.

    So, its that stupid Rise of the Lich King novel that turned the lore upside down. I'm convinced Christie Golden knew nothing about actual lore, but Blizzard wanted to sell the book so they went along with it .
    Well, maybe. Doubt that they would allow christie to write such shit without approving it first/telling her the general outline of how its supposed to end. Either way, it remains one of the worst story-moves theyve ever done, to this day.
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  11. #51
    The WC3 manual, which included background lore for the 4 main playable races mentions Ner'zhul is the lich king by name and that the Lich King was a recent creation by Kil'jaeden.

    Someone linked the manual somewhere in this thread, so i'll link it again

    http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...I%20Manual.pdf

    The second section of the undead lore (titled "Kil'jaeden and the new Deal") mentions how Ner'zhul escaped Draenor and was discovered by Kil'jaeden. Who then killed the orc but kept his spirit intact and tortured it until Ner'zhul agreed to be a pawn of the Legion once again.

    Just as Ner’zhul and his followers entered the Twisting Nether –
    the ethereal plane that connects all of the worlds scattered
    throughout the Great Dark Beyond – they were ambushed by
    Kil’jaeden and his demonic minions. Kil’jaeden, who had sworn to
    take vengeance on Ner’zhul for his prideful defiance, tortured the
    old shaman mercilessly by slowly tearing his body apart piece by
    piece. Kil’jaeden kept the shaman’s spirit alive and intact – leaving Ner’zhul painfully aware of his body’s gross dismemberment.
    Though Ner’zhul pleaded with the demon to release his spirit and
    grant him death, the demon grimly replied that the Blood Pact
    they had made long ago was still binding – and that he would
    make use of his wayward pawn once again (p.g 32)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post

    I'm not sure if the "Rise of the Horde" novel touches on it or not, but when Ner'zhul attempted to open all of those portals in Draenor (which subsequently tore the planet apart creating Outland) and escaped into them, he was caught by Kil'jaeden and transformed into the entity which would later be referred to as the Lich King.



    The WC3 manual says it happened. So you don't need rise of the horde as a source.

    Before he could execute his plan, Ner’zhul was forced to deal with
    an Alliance expeditionary force sent to Draenor to destroy the orcs
    forever. Ner’zhul’s loyal clans managed to hold the Alliance forces
    at bay while the old shaman opened the raging, magical portals.
    To his horror, Ner’zhul realized that the portals’ tremendous energies were beginning to rip the very fabric of Draenor apart. As the
    Alliance forces pushed the orcs further back into the hellish world,
    Draenor began to buckle in on itself. Realizing that the battling
    clans would never reach the portals in time, Ner’zhul selfishly
    abandoned them and escaped with his elite followers in tow. The
    evil group of orcs crossed through their chosen portal just as
    Draenor blew apart in an apocalyptic explosion. The old shaman
    believed he’d been lucky to escape death… (p.g 32)

    The part I just quoted mentions how Ner'zhul created numerous portals and they escaped through those as Draenor was being torn apart from said portals. These same portals would later show up in the Frozen Throne expansion during the mission where you seal them up as Illidan, with Kael'thas, Vashj and Akama helping. You can even see these in WoW as one is in Zangamarsh, another is in Blades Edge and the other one is in Nagrand. iirc, Illidan closed 4, so I wonder where the 4th one was.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    OP, time between events has always been one of the shakiest elements around the RTS games, as Metzen always wrote rule of cool and ignored anything that didn't fit into place. In one version, there's only a short time period between WC2 and 3, like you're referencing. In another, an entire generation of orcs is born and grown to full adulthood (roughly twenty years) in the interment camps and innocent of the Old Horde's horrors. Those two wildly contradict, so Metzen just ignored it.
    It's at least 10-15 years. War of the Spider happened between 2 games and lasted for 10 years.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Yeah, I know the Chronicle story. My question is whether Ner'Zhul as the Lich King was a later soft retcon, or was it already the idea back in Warcraft 3?

    no, the undead acolytes would say "my life for ner'zhul" as a line when selecting them

  14. #54
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    This is some weird thread.

    The Lich King has been Ner'zhul since Warcraft 3, and the writers didn't intend to portray him as ancient. They intended to portray him as a powerful and mysterious foe locked in the Icecrown Glacier, to the north of the north. But he wasn't portrayed as something ancient, and it's clear that there was no clear intention of the devs to do so unless you interpret the Warcraft 3 material in some unknown way.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    This is some weird thread.

    The Lich King has been Ner'zhul since Warcraft 3, and the writers didn't intend to portray him as ancient. They intended to portray him as a powerful and mysterious foe locked in the Icecrown Glacier, to the north of the north. But he wasn't portrayed as something ancient, and it's clear that there was no clear intention of the devs to do so unless you interpret the Warcraft 3 material in some unknown way.
    You don't get the impression of something ancient playing Warcraft 3? Especially the Human and Undead campaigns in Reign Of Chaos?

  16. #56
    This thread has basically run its course. OP straight up ignoring a dozen people proving his whole thesis incorrect with direct canon references. It's just weird what's going on here

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Yeah, I know the Chronicle story. My question is whether Ner'Zhul as the Lich King was a later soft retcon, or was it already the idea back in Warcraft 3?
    Always like that he needed a vessel to be "free" in Arthas.

    Also im not sure where you get this "Ancient" impression from the LK at all. Nor do i think the intent was that either considering the the WC3 manual literally tells the story of the LK.

    The only think that i think is intentional regarding "ancient" was the arthas missions where you are going through the spider kingdom coming across ancient beings.
    Last edited by maccajoe; 2019-12-01 at 07:58 AM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    You don't get the impression of something ancient playing Warcraft 3? Especially the Human and Undead campaigns in Reign Of Chaos?
    Not at all.

    I get the impression of a mysterious foe trying to harm Lordaeron and pulling strings, but not ancient.

  19. #59
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    At this point, 3 pages in the thread, and countless other sources on the Internet you can simply Google-search... I can't fathom why you feel this topic still needs discussion. It's been answered every way 'till Sunday.

  20. #60
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    The runes etc giving the Lich King/Frostmourne a sense of ancientness may be doing so in the same way that runes on constructs in Ulduar allude to the ancient power of the Titans (and by extension through modern cultures of the titanforged Earthen and Vrykul’s human and dwarf descendants).

    Considering the Jailer’s resemblance to Aman’thul, and Mueh’zala’s (operating under the assumption that it’s the Jailer’s name in Zandali) title as “the Son of Time”, it may be that the leader of the Titan Pantheon charged his “son“ to guard the dead (maybe like Odyn’s relationship with Helya, or Zeus’ with Hades) with Titan runes and magic; and that the Nathrezim stole that tech/magic so it all is sort of tied together anciently.
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