Jailer is good, Arbiter is evil

[Temp1on2]

Not that this is invalid, but BfA kind of ignored this too. Warfronts were clearly planned to be a major expansion thing, as was/is war mode, and islands fighting the enemy faction, all three of which, from a lore perspective, were made moot halfway through the xpac.

That's kind of true, but warfronts weren't relevant content (both in terms of story and gear) outside of the patch they were released in. The new Tower is meant to be relevant content throughout the expansion, the narrative wouldn't make sense if the story tells us the Jailer is actually our friend but we're still encouraged to attack his fortress for relevant loot .

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Torghast is obviously not going ot be canonically fought over the entire expansion, at some point we move on to the 9.2 area, or 9.3 area. And unless the final raid is Torghast as well then canonically we stopped running Torghast ages ago. (Personal guess is Torghast is the second raid)

I don't think this is obvious to be fair. They specifically said Torghast isn't a raid, its 1-5 man infinitely re-playeble content. Moreover the legendaries are exclusively forged from this content meaning that it will be expansion-long

[Eapoe]

The twist will be Sylvanas overthrowing the Jailer, taking his place, releasing all the souls she sent there back into the world, and thereby redeeming herself while saving her own soul from the torment she knows she is supposed to endure.

[Sondrelk]

I don't think this is obvious to be fair. They specifically said Torghast isn't a raid, its 1-5 man infinitely re-playeble content. Moreover the legendaries are exclusively forged from this content meaning that it will be expansion-long

I mean obvisouly in the sense that it is fairly obvious to anyone that we do not actually do the raid once a week, or even spend days on progression.
What is canonically happening and what is actually being done in game is rarely something that lines up neatly.

To bring it back to BfA.
While i think we canonically od islands more than once, it would be silly to assume that the factions are still fighting over the resources with the same NPCs at this point, canonically we probably stopped doing Island expeditions around Battle for Dazar'alor since that is when the Horde lost the rest of its ships.
Torghast will likely work the same way, we will keep going there in the game potentially all expansion unless Blizzard makes Torghast 2.0 at a later point, but canonically we probably stop going there once the second raid happens.

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The twist will be Sylvanas overthrowing the Jailer, taking his place, releasing all the souls she sent there back into the world, and thereby redeeming herself while saving her own soul from the torment she knows she is supposed to endure.

So her grand plan to save everyone was to kill them first?
That seem incredibly short-sighted, and is basically the same problem aswas underlined a littel while back with why Sylvanas doesnt just talk to Anduin and say where the Jailer is and that Bolvar can help us get there.

[Thetruth1400]

seeing how hard Blizzard tries to make Sylvanas look like the misunderstood hero, i can see them doing something like this.

come 9.3, we have a cutscene with the big reveal of "OMG Sylavanas was never evil, who would habe guessed!?" and a smug-looking Sylvanas....

It's shitty enough writing that I could see Blizzard actually pulling that, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Teldrassil alone, she committed mass genocide. According to the WoW:RPG, Teldrassil had a population of 23k. In the quest, we managed to save under 1,000 before we fall to the smoke. Anduin comments that "How many Night Elves were elsewhere in the world? How many did we save? Far too few; this was a genocide."

All that followed up by action after action, just seeking to cause as much death and grief as possible. Even if she did all that to send us to Shadowlands; knowing somehow that the Arbiter was bad and the Jailer good and we'd all end up with the Jailer (Because apparently the Arbiter is a shitty person that doesn't realize "Oh hey, all these are souls given directly to my enemy.") it doesn't forgive the actions of the here and now.

Likewise, there's absolutely no way for Sylvanas, who is in direct communication with the Jailer, to justify not tell him, "Oh hey, you see all these souls coming to you? Yeah, they're on our side, so don't attack them."


At the end of the day, I hope Sylvanas dies completely and ends up dead in the hell she saw prior; an empty wasteland of nothingness, and barring that, her own personal hell where she continually fails, killed over and over again by Arthas, the Lich King.

[Sondrelk]

It's shitty enough writing that I could see Blizzard actually pulling that, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Teldrassil alone, she committed mass genocide. According to the WoW:RPG, Teldrassil had a population of 23k. In the quest, we managed to save under 1,000 before we fall to the smoke. Anduin comments that "How many Night Elves were elsewhere in the world? How many did we save? Far too few; this was a genocide."

All that followed up by action after action, just seeking to cause as much death and grief as possible. Even if she did all that to send us to Shadowlands; knowing somehow that the Arbiter was bad and the Jailer good and we'd all end up with the Jailer (Because apparently the Arbiter is a shitty person that doesn't realize "Oh hey, all these are souls given directly to my enemy.") it doesn't forgive the actions of the here and now.

Likewise, there's absolutely no way for Sylvanas, who is in direct communication with the Jailer, to justify not tell him, "Oh hey, you see all these souls coming to you? Yeah, they're on our side, so don't attack them."


At the end of the day, I hope Sylvanas dies completely and ends up dead in the hell she saw prior; an empty wasteland of nothingness, and barring that, her own personal hell where she continually fails, killed over and over again by Arthas, the Lich King.

The people trying to spin Sylvanas as being honorable, or at least an antihero, are likely the same people that tried to convince us on how Sylvanas was completely right to attempt enslaving her supposed ally, or burning down Teldrassil, or killing and ressurecting her own troops.
It is a desperate stalling tactic because they simply cannot fathom how their waifu is being seen as evil.

[Varodoc]

The people trying to spin Sylvanas as being honorable, or at least an antihero, are likely the same people that tried to convince us on how Sylvanas was completely right to attempt enslaving her supposed ally, or burning down Teldrassil, or killing and ressurecting her own troops.
It is a desperate stalling tactic because they simply cannot fathom how their waifu is being seen as evil.

I am not even sure why they cannot fathom her as evil. She has always been evil! Since The Frozen Throne she was a conniving, backstabbing piece of shit with no moral bound whatsoever. If you are a Sylvanas fanboy and you didn't fall in love with her because she was evil, then what are you doing?

[Temp1on2]

I mean obvisouly in the sense that it is fairly obvious to anyone that we do not actually do the raid once a week, or even spend days on progression.
What is canonically happening and what is actually being done in game is rarely something that lines up neatly.

To bring it back to BfA.
While i think we canonically od islands more than once, it would be silly to assume that the factions are still fighting over the resources with the same NPCs at this point, canonically we probably stopped doing Island expeditions around Battle for Dazar'alor since that is when the Horde lost the rest of its ships.
Torghast will likely work the same way, we will keep going there in the game potentially all expansion unless Blizzard makes Torghast 2.0 at a later point, but canonically we probably stop going there once the second raid happens.

But the difference is that the narrative of later BfA patches doesn't include islands or warfronts as ways to progress the story (or your character in terms of gear). They aren't going to have a narrative feature that is obselete in the next content patch feature award legendaries for the entire expansion.

The way they've explained the Tower is that you don't actually ever "finish" it/get to the end. You get so far and then you're defeated/kicked out to re-assult it later, thereby making it relevant narratively for the entire expansion.

The Tower isn't a feature for a single patch that you can do throughout the expansion because of game mechanics, it is an expansion defining feature throughout - they won't release a "Torghast 2.0" you'll just be able to get to Floor 15 of the Tower in 9.3 instead of just floor 5 in 9.0 (floor number is arbitrary I'm just illustrating the progression system).

[Sondrelk]

But the difference is that the narrative of later BfA patches doesn't include islands or warfronts as ways to progress the story (or your character in terms of gear). They aren't going to have a narrative feature that is obselete in the next content patch feature award legendaries for the entire expansion.

The way they've explained the Tower is that you don't actually ever "finish" it/get to the end. You get so far and then you're defeated/kicked out to re-assult it later, thereby making it relevant narratively for the entire expansion.

The Tower isn't a feature for a single patch that you can do throughout the expansion because of game mechanics, it is an expansion defining feature throughout - they won't release a "Torghast 2.0" you'll just be able to get to Floor 15 of the Tower in 9.3 instead of just floor 5 in 9.0 (floor number is arbitrary I'm just illustrating the progression system).

The point is just that even if Torghast is infinite content and relevant throughout the expansion it still isnt canonically done for that entire length of time.
My personal prediction is that the upper part of Torghast is the second raid, but even with that, unless Torghast and the Jailer is the final boss of the expansion, there is still a point in the expansion where the player canonically stops going there.

And no, i don't think we will necessarily stop doing Torghast, my guess is it will serve a similar function ot Islands in BfA where you keep getting stuff from it, even if only a tiny bit.
I could see Torghast 2.0 happening later in the expansion though, for instance if 9.2 takes place in Storm peaks just as an example, the new Torghast could be in Ulduar. Same mechanics, but different layout and buffs.

[huth]

Blizzard is perfectly capable of painting someone as a misunderstood hero, they just tend to do it by having someone verablly announce them as such.

Given the audience they have, i'd argue that's actually necessary. And still doesn't work half the time.

[Temp1on2]

The point is just that even if Torghast is infinite content and relevant throughout the expansion it still isnt canonically done for that entire length of time.

When has Blizz ever had old narrative content reward current patch items though?

my guess is it will serve a similar function ot Islands in BfA where you keep getting stuff from it, even if only a tiny bit.

This isn't how islands work though. Islands and warfronts don't reward current patch ilevel, they give rewards equal to the patch that they were released.

What you're suggesting is like saying the Arathi and darkshore warfront and IEs would be rewarding 430+ gear or being your primary source of AP.

If it wasn't for the legendaries exclusively coming from here I'd agree with you, but Blizz isn't going to give such a powerful and important reward from out-of-date content.

[Sondrelk]

When has Blizz ever had old narrative content reward current patch items though?



This isn't how islands work though. Islands and warfronts don't reward current patch ilevel, they give rewards equal to the patch that they were released.

What you're suggesting is like saying the Arathi and darkshore warfront and IEs would be rewarding 430+ gear or being your primary source of AP.

If it wasn't for the legendaries exclusively coming from here I'd agree with you, but Blizz isn't going to give such a powerful and important reward from out-of-date content.

Emissaries give current level stuff, even the 7th Legion/Honorbound one.

[Temp1on2]

Emissaries give current level stuff, even the 7th Legion/Honorbound one.

Emissaries are a catchup mechanic, the top reward is 415 armour/weapons, below heroic and mythic. Plus emissaries are hardly a core expansion feature as torghast has been marketed to be. And even here, you are not forced to go back to Zandalar/Kul Tiras to get this armour as you will be for legendaries in Sls

[Sondrelk]

Emissaries are a catchup mechanic, the top reward is 3 pieces of 415 azerite armour, below heroic and mythic. Plus emissaries are hardly a core expansion feature as torghast has been marketed to be.

The Eternal Palace also gives top tier loot despite it very clearly being a thing of the past. Emmisaries also scale in ilvl each major patch.
Regardless, my point is that content is not tied to narrative much seeing as canonically we already defeated Azshara in the Eternal Palace and created a tentative peace betweeen the Alliance and Horde, despite this Nathanos is still on that boat in Zuldazar oblivious to the fact that he is supposed to be a pariah in the Horde.

[letgoit]

Oh no no. It's SJW's are useless trash century.

You are a cuck.

[Ragedaug]

seeing how hard Blizzard tries to make Sylvanas look like the misunderstood hero, i can see them doing something like this.

come 9.3, we have a cutscene with the big reveal of "OMG Sylavanas was never evil, who would have guessed!?" and a smug-looking Sylvanas....

You forgot, after they exonerate Sylvanas and she smiles with her smug-look, her eyes will flash yellow just before the camera cuts away.

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You are a cuck.

What does that mean?

[Temp1on2]

The Eternal Palace also gives top tier loot despite it very clearly being a thing of the past. Emmisaries also scale in ilvl each major patch.

Huh? What do you mean? EP is the current raid. Come 8.3 EP will be in the past narratively speaking and will no longer give top tier rewards. EP isn't 'out-of-date' content, its the latest raid. Put simply, the raiding content hasn't been put out fast enough to catch up to the narrative.

At best the x.x.5 patches are an example of 'out-of-sync' storytelling because of how long patches take to release (development, testing etc) and to allow players to actually complete the instance.

Regardless, my point is that content is not tied to narrative much seeing as canonically we already defeated Azshara in the Eternal Palace and created a tentative peace betweeen the Alliance and Horde, despite this Nathanos is still on that boat in Zuldazar oblivious to the fact that he is supposed to be a pariah in the Horde.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Progression content is quite clearly tied to the narrative. Blizz, since the end of TBC, has never asked you to do outdated narrative content to get current patch level rewards (and even in Vanilla & TBC it was only to gear up and for attunements - the best gear was still only in the most recent instance released).

Speaking of TBC, If the Jailer turns out to be a 'friend' and blizz implements Torghast in the way you're saying, it would be like Blizz in Legion placing the legion legendaries in the TBC Black Temple raid and asking you to go raid the scaled up Black Temple - with Illidain and all his minions still as the bosses. It wouldn't make sense and Blizz has never, ever done this.

Like I said, what you're saying would be the equivalent of having unique, high level items that are only obtainable in warfronts and islands.

[Sondrelk]

Huh? What do you mean? EP is the current raid in the present. Come 8.3 EP will be in the past narratively speaking and will no longer give top tier rewards. EP isn't 'out-of-date' content, its the latest raid. Put simply, the raiding content hasn't been put out fast enough to catch up to the narrative.

At best the x.x.5 patches are an example of 'out-of-sync' storytelling because of how long patches take to release (development, testing etc) and to allow players to actually complete the instance.




Sorry, but you're wrong. Progression content is quite clearly tied to the narrative. Blizz, since the end of TBC, has never asked you to do outdated narrative content to get current patch level rewards (and even in Vanilla & TBC it was only to gear up and for attunements - the best gear was still only in the most recent instance released).

Speaking of TBC, If the Jailer turns out to be a 'friend' and blizz implements Torghast in the way you're saying, it would be like like Blizz in Legion placing the legion legendaries in the TBC Black Temple raid and asking you to go raid the Black Temple - with Illidain as the final boss. It wouldn't make sense and Blizz has never, ever done this.

Like I said, what you're saying would be the equivalent of having unique, high level items that are only obtainable in warfronts and islands.

You seem to be confusing what i am saying here.

The Eternal Palace is the current raid we are supposed to get loot from, there isnt a higher level of raiding yet that we can get higher ilvl loot from.
However The Eternal Palace is also narratively obsolete, the latest quests take place after we defeated Azshara, so clearly we are not canonically still clearing Eternal Palace, and canonically the Eternal Palace was defeated by you right after you opened it.

Also where are you getting hte idea that i am saying that current level gear is from past raids?
I am saying that canonically we do not actually go around defeating stuff in the past, even infinite gameplay models are not actually canonically done forever, and Torghast will be no exception.
We will be running it potentially the entire expansion and getting loot from it, but thinking that we keep doing that forever in canon is kinda insane.


I am honestly not sure what you think i am writing here? Seems pretty obvious to me. Events in the game do not actually canonically happen forever, even if the game says they do.

[Temp1on2]

You seem to be confusing what i am saying here.

The Eternal Palace is the current raid we are supposed to get loot from, there isnt a higher level of raiding yet that we can get higher ilvl loot from.
However The Eternal Palace is also narratively obsolete, the latest quests take place after we defeated Azshara, so clearly we are not canonically still clearing Eternal Palace, and canonically the Eternal Palace was defeated by you right after you opened it.

i think it is you who are confusing what I'm saying.

My point: It's unlikely that the Jailer would be revealed as a friend to us if Torghast remains as an expansion spanning source of legendaries (as has been stated). Why? Because it wouldn't make sense as the narrative progresses, patch to patch, that we are still attacking his tower.

The same way it wouldn't make sense that we're still raiding uldir to get the highest level items, the same way we won't be raiding EP when the next raid is released. Blizz makes all the key features of an expansion directly tied to the narrative, and have made a huge deal about the Jailer and the Maw being tied to the narrative.

Also where are you getting hte idea that i am saying that current level gear is from past raids?

You're saying that its perfectly conceivable that blizzard would allow you to get current level gear (not just any gear, legendaries) from Torghast - which they said is the only place to get legendaries - the equivalent of this now would be making players do old raids to get current gear.

We will be running it potentially the entire expansion and getting loot from it, but thinking that we keep doing that forever in canon is kinda insane.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, I've never said "forever" I've said for the entire expansion, therefore its unlikely that the Jailer will be revealed to be a "friend" in the expansion. I'm talking exclusively within the expansion, in the next expansion that's anyone's guess.

[Shakana]

I think people are starting to get so used to the Alliance and Horde doing the villain's job for them through plot-induced stupidity (or double-triple-quadruple agents playing 500D super galaxy brain chess manipulating everyone because smart people are indistinguishable from omnipotent wizards) that some weird flavor of Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in and massive tactical blunders now appear brilliant due to years of Blizzard's writing team telling us these massive tactical blunders were secretly brilliant after the fact.

I just want to have a new badass villain, that's not Sylvanas.

[Bwgmon]

Arbiter: Ha ha, I funneled all the anima power in the universe to you, the Jailer, as a joke. You will never be able to stop me now that I'm completely powerless.