The explorers league are such hypocrites

[Varodoc]

Umm... the alliance of lordaeron??

Stormwind, Gnomeregan and Khaz'modan were a part of it? The leading members of the current alliance with the same leaders?

The PvP Symbol is still literally that of Lordaeron and the Skybreaker had Lordaeron crests all over

Garithos genocided the remaining 10% of blood elves, but I guess they were just following orders aswell amrite? Daelin killed lots of horde and left the alliance AFTER he died. Arthas Genocided Stratholme, which according to the old RPG housed 25,000 people. Teldrassil Housed 24,000. If it's any indication to go by, Stratholme has a busting population aswell, and they were all. Murdered.

Oh and yeah, Genocide is totally justified if no one likes them. Who cares about the Amani anyway. They totally aren't a proud people like anyone else on Azeroth. Being driven from their own lands and butchered.

Garithos and Arthas were from Lordaeron, if the Alliance are guilty of their actions, then so are the Forsaken, who claim they are the rightful citizens of Lordaeron (and who actually are the people who spawned those villains). Daelin was not backed by the Alliance, that's literally why Kul Tiras hated them in the first place, because they refused to answer Daelin's call to war. The Horde are also responsible for the state the Amani are in, since it's the Blood Elves who opened hostilities with the Amani, not Humans.

[Kiri]

Garithos genocided the remaining 10% of blood elves, but I guess they were just following orders aswell amrite?

This comparison doesn't really work, tbh. Putting aside that Garithos, while a xenophobic jerk, didn't actually go out to genocide the remaining 10% of blood elves, there is a fundamental issue with this.

The alliance did not give Garithos orders to kill any bloodelves. Technically, nobody was giving him orders since he was de facto leader of the living people of Lordaeron. He was pretty much a warlord at that point, not a person in the alliance chain of command. Holding other alliance members accountable for his actions is kind of foolish because of that. At worst they are guilty of ignorance by sending him some reinforcements without observers that reported back to him. The alliance, by and large, did not even know what exactly Garithos was doing. And with his forces obliterated, they probably never got an account of what happened at all.

Meanwhile, Garrosh and Sylvanas were explicitly included in the Horde chain of command. They gave orders. The orders were followed. The Horde army cheered for Sylvanas when they marched towards Darkshore. In both cases, the Horde, as in a sizable portion of it, only started to fight back after they committed one atrocity too many, but the populace at large just accepted stuff like Teldrassil.

We really shouldn't consider these issues the same at all. One is a general of an allied nation doing stuff without supervision, the others are official actions ordered by the highest level of government. If Garithos had survived and the alliance had then not persecuted him for war crimes (if they were informed about them) you might have a point, but otherwise, it is a bit of a reach.

And another technicality: since you are comparing murder-sizes between Arthas when he was arguably still working for the alliance and Sylvanas there, you need to do it right. Arthas did not murder the whole population of Stratholme. And no, this isn't me going into the whole 'they were already bound to die by the plague, so it isn't murder' thing. I'm just talking the actual killing here. In both the WC3 mission and the Caverns of Time iteration, a large portion of the city is turned by Mal'Ganis. Naturally, performance in the mission is player-skill based, but it does stop after 100 kills, one way or another. And those kills don't even have to be of un-turned villagers, since players can wait for them to turn. Meanwhile, in the Caverns, Arthas kills only relatively few living people, with most enemies being already turned enemies. The murder count should probably be reduced to about 10k at best.
Still monstrous, obviously. But information needs to be handled correctly.

[Dark Succ]

Arthas did not murder the whole population of Stratholme.

Seconded. As I have said before in another thread, there was a small amount of people who survived Stratholme. I'd say at least 100, at most 150. Most of them followed Jaina to Theramore, probably dying in the skirmishes that happened out there, and to the mana bomb later on if they survived those events. Currently, I'd argue only a dozen Stratholme survivors who followed Jaina exist in the aftermath of Theramore, and that can easily be an incorrect number, the true result probably being fewer.

Those who didn't follow Jaina moved on to places where humans still dwelled. Then Arthas came back from Kalimdor and started a mass genocide of the living to increase the numbers of the local Scourge. If he wasn't weakened at that crucial point and didn't have to go to Northrend asap, there would have been no survivors this time. I'd argue that Stratholme survivors that remained in Lordearon, survived Arthas' massacres and took up the sword eventually became the greatest members of Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn, meanwhile those who fled from Arthas' wrath fled to places like Menethil Harbor and Stormwind.

So yeah, there were people who survived Stratholme, who mostly died to other dangers that followed. If there are any remaining "Children of Stratholme", they are probably among some of the strongest Azeroth has to offer, having survived hell on earth.

The undead plague was truly something.

[Varodoc]

If you remember the cutscene where Jaina is approached by Uther and then Medivh in the ruins of Stratholme, several humans were seen cleaning up the mess Arthas left behind however they could. So Arthas did not kill everyone in the city, many survived.

[TigTone]

They killed titanic keeper Archaedas.

I have always found it stupid blizzard killed off one of the top Titan Keepers.

And by a bunch of nobody adventures at least at the time of it.

[Maxilian]

Well... i don't agree in the way you put BFA conflict with the sword, but is true that the Explorer leagues have done questionable stuff, but that applies to most non-shammy/druid groups

[mickybrighteyes]

Explorer's League as I understand was sent into Silithus after events were already escalating.

goblins got in first, SI:7 followed cause Goblins doing shit and nothing good comes out of Silithus. SI:7 did what they typically do and get information through 'ways' and 'methods' (how peaceful/hostile is left to viewer's bias). League group sent in under orders of Anduin so that would put them about the same stage as player characters going in.

we can discuss how ruthless Galywix's thugs were in taking out the Explorer's League camp looking for Saphie, but the event in the overall theme is just muddied up between poor telling of events and hostile relations already mounting. Some might argue that SI:7 wasn't that hostile cause quests don't say anything until players show up to be more direct... but keep in mind the last time SI:7 directly got involved with Bilgewater Cartel was nearly wiping them out for possibly seeing their ship.

[Hyral]

Battle for Azeroth: "The goblins are such monsters for attacking us when we extracted a resource of mass desctruction from the sword of a titan! Barbarians!!!

The Explorer's League is ruthless enough for anyone to legitimately criticize without the need to lie about things. You just weaken your own stance when you do that.

[matrix123mko]

I have always found it stupid blizzard killed off one of the top Titan Keepers.

And by a bunch of nobody adventures at least at the time of it.

I think they shouldn't have made Archaedas a keeper. Mother or Helya seem stronger and more interesting.

[Feanoro]

Bait thread or the typical "Any character from a member race of the Alliance is an Alliance agent acting with full approval, because I say so. Also, damn the Alliance racists for lumping every evil orc into the Horde!" nonsense.

[Mehrunes]

See this is more useful, from going to wowpedia there isn’t any mention of the explorers league or even who started the conflict just that the cows were upset that the dwarfs were digging. There could be more info that’s not on wowpedia but I can’t log onto wow at the moment and quest though the zone so I don’t know.

Given how the entire zone is Horde territory to begin, the very presence of the Dwarves is them starting conflict. Then there's the part where they, you know, set up their digsite on a Tauren outpost. That they captured. Which kinda implies outright violence on their part.

Nothing arthas did had any thing to do with the alliance. Daelin didn’t get alliance support which is why he died. Garithos did get support but only because no one knew what was going on and he was the only man of rank. The scarlet crusade has literally nothing to do with the alliance.

You're conflating Alliance's reaction to Kul'tiras seeking vengeance for Daelin's death with Daelin's own campaign. And your remark about Garithos is a complete non-argument. As for the Scarlet Crusade, it's an off-shoot of the Silver Hand. Which very much is an Alliance organization. That Alliance kept in touch with even in Vanilla.

The alliance did not give Garithos orders to kill any bloodelves. Technically, nobody was giving him orders since he was de facto leader of the living people of Lordaeron. He was pretty much a warlord at that point, not a person in the alliance chain of command. Holding other alliance members accountable for his actions is kind of foolish because of that. At worst they are guilty of ignorance by sending him some reinforcements without observers that reported back to him. The alliance, by and large, did not even know what exactly Garithos was doing. And with his forces obliterated, they probably never got an account of what happened at all.

What on earth... Garithos being the leader of the people of Lordaeron put him in the Alliance's chain of command. And him being the one highest up in that chain of command from people who were still alive is the entire reason why he was in charge at the time and why everyone else in the Alliance recognized him and sent forces to help him out. Even Khaz'modan and Gnomeregan sent him reinforcements. To say that holding Alliance accountable for the actions of their leader at the time, actions that everyone else supported no less, is outright fantasy.

We really shouldn't consider these issues the same at all. One is a general of an allied nation doing stuff without supervision, the others are official actions ordered by the highest level of government. If Garithos had survived and the alliance had then not persecuted him for war crimes (if they were informed about them) you might have a point, but otherwise, it is a bit of a reach.

Not only is it not a reach because Garithos was Alliance's highest commander (and as such had no one above him to supervise him), not only is trying to limit the Alliance's blame for his actions on a hypothetical scenario of him being trialed for war crimes by the Alliance special pleading, but Alliance wouldn't have trialed him one way or another because they are utter hypocrites about issues like that, vide Anduin doing fuck all about Genn starting a conflict with the Horde during an apocalypse and even breaking his orders in order to do so.

And another technicality: since you are comparing murder-sizes between Arthas when he was arguably still working for the alliance and Sylvanas there, you need to do it right. Arthas did not murder the whole population of Stratholme. And no, this isn't me going into the whole 'they were already bound to die by the plague, so it isn't murder' thing. I'm just talking the actual killing here. In both the WC3 mission and the Caverns of Time iteration, a large portion of the city is turned by Mal'Ganis. Naturally, performance in the mission is player-skill based, but it does stop after 100 kills, one way or another. And those kills don't even have to be of un-turned villagers, since players can wait for them to turn. Meanwhile, in the Caverns, Arthas kills only relatively few living people, with most enemies being already turned enemies. The murder count should probably be reduced to about 10k at best.
Still monstrous, obviously. But information needs to be handled correctly.

Trying to conflate in-game mechanics with lore isn't an argument.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given how the entire zone is Horde territory to begin, the very presence of the Dwarves is them starting conflict. Then there's the part where they, you know, set up their digsite on a Tauren outpost. That they captured. Which kinda implies outright violence on their part.




You're conflating Alliance's reaction to Kul'tiras seeking vengeance for Daelin's death with Daelin's own campaign. And your remark about Garithos is a complete non-argument. As for the Scarlet Crusade, it's an off-shoot of the Silver Hand. Which very much is an Alliance organization. That Alliance kept in touch with even in Vanilla

I’d have to go though the actual quest but from the sound of it in wowpedia the cows didn’t have a problem till they started using explosives on the site.

For daelin I could be remembering wrong it’s been a while but I don’t remember him getting any support from the current alliance kingdoms.

Garithos was given support but that doesn’t mean any of the kingdoms support what he did with the troops they sent as they wouldn’t know what he was doing on the front and all the troops he got died unless there’s some survivors I don’t know of.

Saying the crusade is an off shoot of the silver hand is just another to say they were no longer part of the silver hand which was still an alliance force. They left the alliance any thing they did after that isn’t on the alliance in any way just like say garrosh going to wod isn’t on the horde in any way. Keeping in touch with them doesn’t mean any thing the horde and alliance keep in touch (when not at open war) but they ain’t friends.

[huth]

Saying the crusade is an off shoot of the silver hand is just another to say they were no longer part of the silver hand which was still an alliance force. They left the alliance any thing they did after that isn’t on the alliance in any way just like say garrosh going to wod isn’t on the horde in any way. Keeping in touch with them doesn’t mean any thing the horde and alliance keep in touch (when not at open war) but they ain’t friends.

And saying the Scarlet Crusade is an Alliance organisation is completely ignoring that they were perfectly fine attacking Alliance members on sight and were controlled by a Dreadlord. Sure, they kept in touch. By sending you to smash a hammer in the crusades face.

[Starfals]

I have always found it stupid blizzard killed off one of the top Titan Keepers.

And by a bunch of nobody adventures at least at the time of it.

Hah, dont even remind us of that XD Uhh

[Mehrunes]

I’d have to go though the actual quest but from the sound of it in wowpedia the cows didn’t have a problem till they started using explosives on the site.

Gann's issue with the Dwarves had very little to do with explosives. And you're moving the goalposts. Every single Tauren on Azeroth could pull a Baine in regards to Bael'Modan and make excuses for the Dwarves. That doesn't negate the fact that the Dwarves intruded on Horde territory and captured a Horde outpost. Which was a hostile action on their part, regardless of what the Tauren felt about the Dwarves.

For daelin I could be remembering wrong it’s been a while but I don’t remember him getting any support from the current alliance kingdoms.

I didn't say anything about him getting support from the Alliance. He didn't ask so he obviously did not have any. But since he didn't ask, the idea that Alliance refused him is wrong by default. And since Alliance expressed no stance towards the matter and given how Kul Tiras left the Alliance only after his death (after they did ask the Alliance for help in avenging Daelin, which is when the Alliance actually refused them), he was still a high ranking Alliance member at the time of his escapades.

Garithos was given support but that doesn’t mean any of the kingdoms support what he did with the troops they sent as they wouldn’t know what he was doing on the front and all the troops he got died unless there’s some survivors I don’t know of.

You could say the same thing about Horde during the Theramore campaign. The argument you are making here makes very little sense in context of the post that started this whole subtopic and your earlier stance towards it.

Saying the crusade is an off shoot of the silver hand is just another to say they were no longer part of the silver hand which was still an alliance force. They left the alliance any thing they did after that isn’t on the alliance in any way just like say garrosh going to wod isn’t on the horde in any way. Keeping in touch with them doesn’t mean any thing the horde and alliance keep in touch (when not at open war) but they ain’t friends.

Silver Hand isn't an Alliance member state. It's an organization. Leaving the Silver Hand does not constitute seceding from the Alliance any more than leaving Stormwind's baker union would cause someone to cease being an Alliance member.

And saying the Scarlet Crusade is an Alliance organisation is completely ignoring that they were perfectly fine attacking Alliance members on sight and were controlled by a Dreadlord. Sure, they kept in touch. By sending you to smash a hammer in the crusades face.

Or, you know, I was referring to how Scarlet Crusade had diplomats in Stormwind. And the Alliance outpost in Desolace, if memory serves me right.

[Kaleredar]

I didn't say anything about him getting support from the Alliance. He didn't ask so he obviously did not have any. But since he didn't ask, the idea that Alliance refused him is wrong by default. And since Alliance expressed no stance towards the matter and given how Kul Tiras left the Alliance only after his death (after they did ask the Alliance for help in avenging Daelin, which is when the Alliance actually refused them), he was still a high ranking Alliance member at the time of his escapades.

I'd say "refusing to help" means the Alliance didn't support him.

Silver Hand isn't an Alliance member state. It's an organization. Leaving the Silver Hand does not constitute seceding from the Alliance any more than leaving Stormwind's baker union would cause someone to cease being an Alliance member.

Or, you know, I was referring to how Scarlet Crusade had diplomats in Stormwind. And the Alliance outpost in Desolace, if memory serves me right.

Those were two guys. Literally two guys, who, if you followed their quest chain, sent you to an actually alliance-aligned paladin that had broken away from the scarlet crusade, who then actively plans the scarlet crusade's destruction by attacking SM. The Scarlet Crusade was just as hostile to the Alliance as to anyone else. They in no way, shape, or form served the Alliance or its interests. They were 100% an independent faction.

As to why the Alliance would "tolerate" the two guys in their fold... it's likely because the Alliance had zero idea of what was happening in Tirisfal glades at the time of Vanilla.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Gann's issue with the Dwarves had very little to do with explosives. And you're moving the goalposts. Every single Tauren on Azeroth could pull a Baine in regards to Bael'Modan and make excuses for the Dwarves. That doesn't negate the fact that the Dwarves intruded on Horde territor

what goal post do you think there is exactly? I already said i'm just going off of wowpedia and that it sounds like the dwarfs and cows were fine with each other till it came to a head. I have no goalpost to move as I've already said i Don't know the greater details.

I didn't say anything about him getting support from the Alliance. He didn't ask so he obviously did not have any. But since he didn't ask, the idea that Alliance refused him is wrong by default. And since Alliance expressed no stance towards the matter and given how Kul Tiras left the Alliance only after his death (after they did ask the Alliance for help in avenging Daelin, which is when the Alliance actually refused them), he was still a high ranking Alliance member at the time of his escapades.

So it has nothing to do with the current alliance, I really don't care about the point past that as i Don't care about kul tiras or what daelin does in his free time.

You could say the same thing about Horde during the Theramore campaign. The argument you are making here makes very little sense in context of the post that started this whole subtopic and your earlier stance towards it.

you can say the same thing about the mana bomb not the rest of the campaign but who cares about theramore no one was talking about the horde.

Silver Hand isn't an Alliance member state. It's an organization. Leaving the Silver Hand does not constitute seceding from the Alliance any more than leaving Stormwind's baker union would cause someone to cease being an Alliance member.

I don't care to split hairs as to when the scarlet crusade left the alliance nothing they did as the crusade has any thing to do with the alliance unless you have something to show that they were stilling acting as part of it.

[FelPlague]

That's exactly what happened.

no, no its not, we already told you why a few times.
the goblins went there first and started mining, alliance and explorers league came to see wtf is going on and the goblins started killing.

[Minikin]

"Bael Modan was once a part of the lands that served as home and provider to the Stonespire tribe. Then the dwarves came and began their excavation operations, forcing the tauren out and killing many innocent who opposed. Prospector Khazgorm's own journal says they drove out the tauren because they were being a nuisance to the operations, as for the dwarves it was more important their work than the "comfort of the local inhabitants". Not only that, but Bael Modan's strategic position might be of value to the Alliance.

The tauren tried to approach the dwarves of Bael'dun to reach a diplomatic resolution but it failed. Tired of waiting and angered about his people's persecution, Gann Stonespire sent a Horde champion to reclaim the journal of Prospector Khazgorm and retaliate against the dwarves, killing Khazgorm in the process. After gathering supplies to make explosives, the champion was tasked do use them to destroy a flying machine to show the dwarves a lesson."

- - - Updated - - -



Funny how you continue to blame both Garrosh and Sylvanas on us but you won't take responseability for neither Arthas, Daelin, Garithos, The Scarlet Crusade, The massacre upon the amani or anything else

But you know, can't have the alliance be responsible for their actions. They just do shit then they have their saviour christie golden retcon what they did in her newest book.

yes come back to us when your main faction race has decimated its own planet, invaded another, then gotten another timeline to fix it and wrecked it again. All the while now having two warchiefs who have gone into a whole separate timeline in search of more world ending power. Not to mention making u suckers go on a war thinking its for the horde only to feed you to a hungering maw to gain more power. Also lets forget how Ogmot was infact talking about her "sheep followers" but say instead its about Alleria. Or you know lets also ignore what actual book lore says about what happened in Silithus but continue talking about Gann Stonespire because camp taurajo rings more than what happened at Stonetalon. Oh whats that? you forgot you bombed a convention of hippy druids? Or the march across northern kalimdor to teldrassil with astrannar filled with wisps and at the end of the war just going "but but but it wasnt me it was sylvanas! she made me do it" rings so much like " but but but, me not know, demons made me drink blood!"

honestly id make a paragraph but whats the point, since you couldnt read an actual book you wouldnt be able to read this. Its shameful that the current horde has degenerated into what the alliance was pre bc. whining and whining how the world does them wrong and itsssss juuuusssstttttt sooooooo unnnnffaaiiiiirrr.

[FelPlague]

Funny how you continue to blame both Garrosh and Sylvanas on us but you won't take responseability for neither Arthas, Daelin, Garithos, The Scarlet Crusade, The massacre upon the amani or anything else

But you know, can't have the alliance be responsible for their actions. They just do shit then they have their saviour christie golden retcon what they did in her newest book.

1. Garrosh and sylvanas were both LEADERS OF THE HORDE and were accepted as leaderr until the very end, it was not until that one final straw they were dealt with, they did countless things with no problem

2. arthas was never part of the alliance, and the first action he took that was evil he was already kicked out of his throne.

3. daelin actually was legit, the horde WAS NOT to be trusted, if he had been allowed to do what he did, the world woulda been a lot better off, he was literally just a dude who did not trust the horde, rightfully so, and guess what, even then still killed.

4. garithos again not part of the alliance

5. scarlet crusade, not part of the alliance, they were part of the light, corrupted by the legion, literally not alliance, and the alliance even sends you to kill them.

6. massacre upon the amani? how is that a bad thing? do you forget what they were doing for literally thousands of thousands of years?

also what you talking about retcons?