Shadowlands - Ion's final expansion?

[babyback]

Right, except there *is* a singular person (see: Ion) who would make the decision that something is ok to implement. You don't have rogue developers just implementing random shit. It's not a democratic process that everyone sits down, comes up with ideas and there's a team vote on things.

You have no clue how it is at Blizzard. Sure, some decisions come from the top that should be implemented without discussion. That’s how it is at every company.

But how it also is in every company is that you have dialogues with the staff how stuff are supposed to be made.

If one think that Ion make all decisions you’re truly delusional.

[Loveliest]

These doom posts are getting earlier and earlier. We're not even in prepatch and we're getting ready to get out the pitchforks and fill the forums with hate. I'm surprised nobody's made a poll about the worst expansion ever and put Shadowlands up there as well.

[Augusta138]

Right, except there *is* a singular person (see: Ion) who would make the decision that something is ok to implement. You don't have rogue developers just implementing random shit. It's not a democratic process that everyone sits down, comes up with ideas and there's a team vote on things.

Once again, it is not about developers who jhst throw things in the game.

But it simply isny Ion all by himself green lighting the systems and ideas.
Thats where a management team comes up.
Probably all the department heads + Ion.

He isnt sitting at a desk with a list of possible systems just going:
Lets do this or lets do that.

It is a decision made by more people than just him.

In no business in the world, (except if you are a private contracter) decisions that affect the company in any way are made by just 1 person.

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subjective is saying i believe Wrath is best exp, while someone else believe MoP is best and so on
fact is when majority of votes say that Wrath is best exp, so while u may not enjoy it as MoP, u can't say that MoP is best in wow history, wrath is
He claimed that Legion was hated in its era, while it wasn't darling and it had many problems, no one said Legion was worst exp, the same like in MoP era, most ppl said that Cata was worse than MoP
Only WoD and BFA held the honorable (sh8t) title of worst exp during their run time, U can count cata but i admit i didn't follow news back then as close as these days to say that
So no it isn't subjective, Legion was never considered worst exp by majority of wow, if u think that urself ok i won't force my opinion on u, but i'm sure as egypt that Legion is no way the worst exp,

You should look up the definition of subjective.

Because the logic above doesnt make sense.
Calling a xpac good or bad is an opinion based on things you like or dont like in said expansion.

No matter how many people dislike or like an expansion, it remains a subjective topic.
Doesnt even matter if it is 1 person.

And that a certain xpac gets the most votes is all nice and makes it the "best" xpac. Although that means that the majority of players had the same opinion about said xpac.

Also trying to figure out the last part of your post, i never said anything about Legion or what my thoughts are on any expansion.

You cant simply say x expansion is bad or the worst and think everyone is agreeing on that topic.

[Kaver]

How do we know BfA was a colossal failure?

BfA success is what I like to call, a "players interpretat(ion)" on how successful it is. It might not be as good as the more popular ones, but saying it's a colossal failure, or a failure at all is something we don't really know. If he will lead more expansions? Don't know. I am going to go with yes. I highly doubt that Ion would be the one that Blizzard will blame for the recent expansions. Legion was well received by players and had a healthy player-base for the whole expansion, Ion was leading that since Legion launch, and was an Assistant Game Director during Legion's development.

Ion have a good amount of power sure, but an expansions success is a team-effort.

The added content of BFA was pretty shit. I believe a lot of people agree on that.

- Azerite system (was a shitshow in the start of bfa and it is still pretty bad)
- Essences
- Warfronts
- Island Expeditions

These are the main features of BFA and none of them were really successful.

Plus a lot of players would argue that the gameplay of a lot of classes got worse going from Legion to BFA. I know you cant really call this a “feature” but it should still be included when evaluating the expansion. It is also a common perception that the GCD change was horrible.

I like the retail WoW, but not because of anything that BFA added to the game. So if we purely look at what new features the game got In BFA then I think it is fair to at least argue that it has been a massive failure.

Fortunately for Blizzard they managed to add some great features in Legion (like m+) which the game still lives strongly on.

[kranur]

I did not know bfa was a collosal failure.

But yeah this forum needs a few more sections like: "Personal blogs" , "Confirmed info/leaks pulled out of ass", "WoW is dying"

[Mardux]

I am not. Or would you like to maybe share some proof that I am?

It's not their job to provide burden of proof for you. You made a claim, you got called on, so back the claim up, if you can.

[Aggrophobic]

It's not their job to provide burden of proof for you. You made a claim, you got called on, so back the claim up, if you can.

What? This got embarrassing for you, didn't it? No, they said the expansion was a failure. You know, without backing that up.
The sales and the economic information is right there for you to look at and it's pretty clear.

Now, run along.

[Doffen]

The added content of BFA was pretty shit. I believe a lot of people agree on that.

- Azerite system (was a shitshow in the start of bfa and it is still pretty bad)
- Essences
- Warfronts
- Island Expeditions

These are the main features of BFA and none of them were really successful.

Plus a lot of players would argue that the gameplay of a lot of classes got worse going from Legion to BFA. I know you cant really call this a “feature” but it should still be included when evaluating the expansion. It is also a common perception that the GCD change was horrible.

I like the retail WoW, but not because of anything that BFA added to the game. So if we purely look at what new features the game got In BFA then I think it is fair to at least argue that it has been a massive failure.

Fortunately for Blizzard they managed to add some great features in Legion (like m+) which the game still lives strongly on.

It's not like I strongly disagree or anything, but I think we can be a bit careful with saying it's been a colossal failure. That was my point. And the GCD change was indeed bad. We went into BfA with lots of losses. Especially Azerite Armor and GCD change. Going into an expansion like that wasn't good. They definitely rushed the expansion.

[Kaver]

It's not like I strongly disagree or anything, but I think we can be a bit careful with saying it's been a colossal failure. That was my point. And the GCD change was indeed bad. We went into BfA with lots of losses. Especially Azerite Armor and GCD change. Going into an expansion like that wasn't good. They definitely rushed the expansion.

Yes and that is just what we want Blizzard (... and Activision :b) to understand. The game is not bad. It could be better of course but millions of people enjoy it.

But they need to understand (and hopefully they already do) that the features which they added in BFA are NOT okay. When we pay for a game, we expect higher quality of content than Warfronts, Azerite etc.

Hopefully the new content in Shadowlands will be of higher quality.

I love raids and m+, but sadly BFA cannot be credited for those

[Doffen]

Yes and that is just what we want Blizzard (... and Activision :b) to understand. The game is not bad. It could be better of course but millions of people enjoy it.

But they need to understand (and hopefully they already do) that the features which they added in BFA are NOT okay. When we pay for a game, we expect higher quality of content than Warfronts, Azerite etc.

Hopefully the new content in Shadowlands will be of higher quality.

I love raids and m+, but sadly BFA cannot be credited for those

100% agree. For me it's quality over quantity, and while Legion managed to keep both up, for the most part, BfA didn't manage sadly. If I am not mistaken Arathi Warfront becomes PvP next patch, which is should have been from the start. But it's too late, people have done that content and while it's fun the first times, it's not relevant enough later on. For me Shadowlands seems to focus on less, but hopefully that means the quality will improve. Customization, Torghast, Covenant seems to be the major features, and it ties up with each other. I believe that's a good thing. Just look at Legion. Artifact Weapon was integrated into every part of the content we did, Class Hall, Artifact Power, Artifact Skins, Mage Tower, Class Mounts, Story etc. Which made it good and relevant for every aspect of the game. Imo :P

[Temp1on2]

I’m fine with class design.
I’m fine with islands (I feel 8.3 fixes the reward system with it’s crates, which was my main issue)
Warfronts are inconsequential
AP never felt tedious, but then I didn’t farm every single possible source of azerite 24/7. I take it hardcore people had issue with that?
Azerite armor is fine.
I thought the essences were good, I just wish they were account wide.
RNG is an issue, but not a massive one for me. Mostly suffer it through the weekly mythic chest.
Nazjatar is a bit crappy, but it’s not the doom of the expansion.

If the story wasn’t trash-tier terrible I would find this expansion to be enjoyably average. Certainly better than Legion and WoD but worse than MoP. Unfortunately I, for some reason, let myself get lost in the narrative of every game I play. No matter how shite it is. So I can’t look past that.

But that's you personally (and even you state that 4 of them are problematic). At least Eight of the main features of the expansion have received non-stop complaints, therefore to assert that the "real" problem is the story is laughable.

[Ethas]

Will Shadowlands be the final expansion that Ion is the lead on? After the colossal failure that BfA turned out to be, there's a lot riding on Shadowlands. But so far, it seems most people are heavily underwhelmed by the Shadowlands already.

Will we see a new lead dev during Shadowlands or will Ion survive yet another expansion?

Management usually don't change based on the perception of the product by consumers sadly. They can always blame everything on someone inferior in the chain.

[Claymore]

It's honestly hard to say how good a job he, personally, is doing.

BFA is definitely the low-point of the game, and Shadowlands isn't doing anything, that I can see, to get people excited. Some of the zones look kind of cool, but it again feels pretty "safe" for an expansion. Nothing I've seen has me thinking "Well, I haven't been playing WoW, but NOW I really want to!".

All I can say is, Shadowlands really feels like it's missing "something", at least for me. Personally, I still hold that WoW could greatly benefit (in a number of ways) from adding a Housing system of some kind. It's practically the only MMO on the market that doesn't have one, and it's the kind of thing that can keep people invested, even when they aren't actively raiding.

[infinitemeridian]

It's honestly hard to say how good a job he, personally, is doing.

BFA is definitely the low-point of the game, and Shadowlands isn't doing anything, that I can see, to get people excited. Some of the zones look kind of cool, but it again feels pretty "safe" for an expansion. Nothing I've seen has me thinking "Well, I haven't been playing WoW, but NOW I really want to!".

All I can say is, Shadowlands really feels like it's missing "something", at least for me. Personally, I still hold that WoW could greatly benefit (in a number of ways) from adding a Housing system of some kind. It's practically the only MMO on the market that doesn't have one, and it's the kind of thing that can keep people invested, even when they aren't actively raiding.

Wow does desperately need housing, but people will tell you garrisons were housing and that failed and also WoW is only about instanced content (bgs / raids / dungeons). Anything that has to do with immersion, worldbuilding, customization or player expression and not with excessive stat manipulations and combat is frowned upon on this site.

[Unholyground]

From a raiding standpoint this expansion was fucking spot on for me. Really loved both BoD & TEP

Only crazy people like that much RNG in a game that is about getting the gear you want when it gets down to it though. There is no fun getting the same piece of gear to have it increase by 5 item levels and do nothing else, this isn't a Korean MMO.

[Relapses]

I guess you deserve some congratulations for writing 3 insignificant lines and get 9 pages of replies out of it. No facts, no statistics. (You know, things like: "According to this source (where you insert a link) WoW has lost x amount of subs over the x-pacs that Ion was responsible. Compare that with (where you insert another link) etc etc. His time as a game director has resulted in (insert another link) and so on...bla bla bla...Do you guys think he will be / should be replaced and who would be better suited to do his job?")

You know, stuff that people do to analyse a situation, not just throw out claims ("colossal failure") and your feelings ("it seems").

That said. Will he be replaced? How the hell would we know? Do we work with Blizzard? What I think is, he will quit by his own choices eventually and move on to a job where he is less in the spotlight, because when he is in front of a camera or on a stage, he does not seem comfortable.

I've never got the impression he was uncomfortable in front of the camera. In fact, it's usually quite the opposite. The dude enjoys coming up with bullshit on the spot. See: All the times he looks away from the camera then comes back with, "Yes but..." I see a guy who has lived his entire life thinking about how to respond to criticism and doing something he finds a lot of enjoyment in. He's perfect for the role he represents and I personally do not see him stepping down or being replaced any time soon.

[Quaade]

This charge of 'incompetent' is that based on fact or just your uninformed baseless opinion? If you are going to claim 'fact', then I think we needed to see these 'facts' not opinions dressed up and claimed as facts.

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That's poisoning the well as you've already framed my argument in advance without listening to it. There are no "facts" in the form of results of studies.
Things that have happened:
- A large loss of subscribers. This would have happened regardless due to natural entropy, BFA has however accelerated this based on large amounts of anecdotal evidence. Falloff of the subscriber base was within the expected amounts during Legion. In BFA people have been intensely vocal about BFA being the reason they quit.
- The original system meant to replace how Azerite Traits was the original way that it was intended to work in that the traits had no level restriction and the effect of them was based on the level of your HoA. The replacement system introduced in 8.2 was the same as before with the exception that now traits improve if the HoA over level them.
- The story of Sylvanas was handled incredibly bad and was only possible due to bad retcons that made previous events impossible to have caused by the things that caused them since the retcon forces you to think that Sylvanas failed on purpose because it furthered her long-time plan despite the events having an outcome that limited her long-time plan without any reason.
- Class design. Some specs are considered useless for good reason since they bring little to nothing to the table.

Have Ion designed these things? No. As the lead designer he has greenlit them and that's were his incompetence comes from.

[Pony Soldier]

So how exactly was BfA a "colossal failure"? Is there an official statistic supporting this? See this is why I say that most of the people complaining about BfA and the classes are a very loud minority. Everytime I come on here I'll see someone bashing on the classes saying they're complete shit or just bashing on BfA in general saying it's one of the worst or THE worst expansion. Then I go online and I see a totally different picture. Lots of people running around questing, running dungeons, raiding, and just having a good time with each other (most of them at least). Not once since I started playing in BfA launch day have I ever seen someone complain about the game in any of the chat channels. Most of the complaining and bickering I see are about politics or it's just some douchebags measuring each other's dick.

So I highly doubt BfA really did that bad.

To answer the question, I don't think so. I don't see any reason right now for Ion to leave other than getting constant hate from the unreasonable fans.

[Seranthor]

That's poisoning the well as you've already framed my argument in advance without listening to it. There are no "facts" in the form of results of studies.
Things that have happened:
- A large loss of subscribers. This would have happened regardless due to natural entropy, BFA has however accelerated this based on large amounts of anecdotal evidence. Falloff of the subscriber base was within the expected amounts during Legion. In BFA people have been intensely vocal about BFA being the reason they quit.
- The original system meant to replace how Azerite Traits was the original way that it was intended to work in that the traits had no level restriction and the effect of them was based on the level of your HoA. The replacement system introduced in 8.2 was the same as before with the exception that now traits improve if the HoA over level them.
- The story of Sylvanas was handled incredibly bad and was only possible due to bad retcons that made previous events impossible to have caused by the things that caused them since the retcon forces you to think that Sylvanas failed on purpose because it furthered her long-time plan despite the events having an outcome that limited her long-time plan without any reason.
- Class design. Some specs are considered useless for good reason since they bring little to nothing to the table.

Have Ion designed these things? No. As the lead designer he has greenlit them and that's were his incompetence comes from.

So what you are saying is 'BFA failed because I didn't like it and its Ion's fault and that makes him incompetent'

I still see no 'facts'... I DO see you continuing to clutch at your opinions and try to spin them as 'facts'... Until you bring some facts our conversation is over.

[rips]

people still think 1 person is responsible for everything .. so cute

You wanna replace Ion ? fine but then you have to replace everyone on the TEAM.