Blizzard designed themselves into a corner with M+

[Wilfire]

Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders. This is also why tier sets don't fit into the current design paradigm. When they tried to have unique and powerful rewards from different forms of content, Shadowmourne in WotLK arenas happened.

There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.

Once the momentum from Legion wears off and more and more people realize that the current design is boring and unbalanced, participation will plummet. This is exactly what happened with arenas and rated PvP in general. Once people realized that Blizzard would never sacrifice raid balance in favor of PvP balance, they left. The initial hype from TBC sustained it into MoP but in WoD participation just got destroyed and never recovered. And back during the TBC-WoD period there was a much higher population to sustain continued arena participation.

Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.

This is a classic example of "try to please everyone and you won't please anyone". Except, well, people who play casually. Now is a great time to play casually. You have tons of different content to try and the problems don't become apparent until you reach the very top level. But the parallels between arena's decline and M+ are definitely there. M+ has already become more exclusionary and elitist compared to its Legion iteration.

Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.

[Jester Joe]

This sounds like a weird way to try to describe an issue that doesn't really exist honestly?

You make it sound as if M+ is PvP and raiding is PvE, in regards to the old divide, where PvPers got mad that they had to PvE which was something they didn't want to have to do.

M+ is still PvE. Are there some raiders who dislike it, sure. But it's not a huge divide or something. And mind you, M+ does reward powerful items and raiding provides powerful items. Most classes BiS azerite gear comes from residuum, which M+ gives the most of on a weekly basis, while the trinkets from the raid are extremely strong.

[Wilfire]

This sounds like a weird way to try to describe an issue that doesn't really exist honestly?

You make it sound as if M+ is PvP and raiding is PvE, in regards to the old divide, where PvPers got mad that they had to PvE which was something they didn't want to have to do.

M+ is still PvE. Are there some raiders who dislike it, sure. But it's not a huge divide or something. And mind you, M+ does reward powerful items and raiding provides powerful items. Most classes BiS azerite gear comes from residuum, which M+ gives the most of on a weekly basis, while the trinkets from the raid are extremely strong.

And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).

[Kralljin]

I generally agree with the notion that Blizzard makes the mistake with M+ as they did with Arena.

It's a mode that may seem popular now but doesn't fit into the game as a whole, once Blizzard starts to actually design the game around that mode, people realize that it's not what they exactly wanted.

The concept of Class fantasy and having strengths and weaknesses doesn't mix with Arena, yet a lot had to be removed / homogenized to make classes / spec work in Arena.

[Florena]

You don't 'have' to unless you're pushing for world firsts, and people that push for world firsts are always going to push things to the limit. You don't have to optimize every aspect of play. It is perfectly viaable to raid without touching M+ and vice versa.

[Calfredd]

And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).

And they would have done so anyway which means you, I, and possibly Joe don't have to bother if we didn't want to.

[Jester Joe]

And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).

So the entire game should be catered around competition that only makes up a small fraction of the community?

I mean, in terms of "competition", I only really look towards the "Famed Slayer" category as "competition". Because that's where any real "push" lands, to be able to beat other guilds to be on that leaderboard.

And they would have done so anyway which means you, I, and possibly Joe don't have to bother if we didn't want to.

Pretty much. I don't consider M+ a "Must do" on anything but a toon I just recently hit 120 on, and that's mostly just because it's
1) easy to grab 430 azerite gear then.
2) The M+ essence is usually decent at least to get for most classes.

[Kralljin]

1) easy to grab 430 azerite gear then.

Considering that M+ also awards 430 Ilvl and thus you can basically bypass any game mode barring Mythic solely due to M+.

That wouldn't be an issue in itself, yet M+ has no lockout and is extremely lenient in terms of rewards, you can get a character up to 430 within days, which means that you basically skipped anything below the Mythic raid difficulty in terms of rewards.

And quite honestly, having alternatives doesn't excuse this.
I also have alternatives to Island expedition, yet they are the most efficient source of AP, no contest.
If the "path of least resistance" is far too efficient, that becomes a problem.

And any person that does raid Mythic will also engage in M+, because they represent the more dedicated portion of the playerbase and those aren't going to give easy & quick Heroic Items a pass once a new season is out.

Anecdotal note, friend of mine raids in a World 300 guild (which by no means a hardcore guild) what are they doing once the seaon is fully released?
Yep, M+ for all those Heroic Ilvl items.

This factor wouldn't apply if M+ wasn't the most efficient source of quality gear within the game.
PvP also has the chance to award you decent gear, yet in order to get a 440 Item out of your weekly chest you need at least a 2,1k Rating.
Meanwhile in M+, all you have to do is to complete a +10 dungeon (not even in time) and get Titan residuum on top of that, which doesn't come out of the weekly PvP chest.

Anyone complaining over "being forced into pvp"?
Obviously not because there are far more efficient modes.

[GreenJesus]

This is very accurate. You can't have 3 different esports within 1 game. (Arena, mythic raid, mythic+) in an MMO.

[Thelyron]

For me, the fix would be really simple:

Dungeon gear with an item level above baseline mythics can't be worn in raids.

Raid gear can't be worn at all in mythic+ dungeons.

PvE gear can't be worn at all in PvP and vice versa.

Bring back gear sets with different bonuses for all of these activities. Enable players to say "my endgame is pvp/mythic+/raiding" instead of having it all be complementary to each other.

[spalernTJ]

Just make set bonuses for Raiding
Set bonuses for M+
And set bonuses for PvP

Raiding ones' effects do not activate in M+ or PvP and vise versa.

[GreenJesus]

For me, the fix would be really simple:

Dungeon gear with an item level above baseline mythics can't be worn in raids.

Raid gear can't be worn at all in mythic+ dungeons.

PvE gear can't be worn at all in PvP and vice versa.

Bring back gear sets with different bonuses for all of these activities. Enable players to say "my endgame is pvp/mythic+/raiding" instead of having it all be complementary to each other.

The only thing is I don't really want to have to carry around all these different sets/items in my bags again especially as a paladin

[Jester Joe]

Considering that M+ also awards 430 Ilvl and thus you can basically bypass any game mode barring Mythic solely due to M+.

That wouldn't be an issue in itself, yet M+ has no lockout and is extremely lenient in terms of rewards, you can get a character up to 430 within days, which means that you basically skipped anything below the Mythic raid difficulty in terms of rewards.

And quite honestly, having alternatives doesn't excuse this.
I also have alternatives to Island expedition, yet they are the most efficient source of AP, no contest.
If the "path of least resistance" is far too efficient, that becomes a problem.

This is really no different though than having a guild who's willing to drag your alt through a heroic clear while stacking classes to pass gear to you.
I'm cutting out the rest a bit to just dive into that specific point.

No one is getting into M+10s by pugging. You need a group who's willing to drag you through, or you're gearing up from scratch, climbing the totem pole from M+2 to M+10.

Yes, having no "lock out" on M+ does allow you to do this in a more repeatable fashion than M+ but still, not really a driving issue with it. Especially when there's ridiculously strong trinkets that come from the raid itself.

[Kaver]

Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.

Of course they can have both. Like they do now. There is just another trade-off.

[themaster24]

Just make set bonuses for Raiding
Set bonuses for M+
And set bonuses for PvP

Raiding ones' effects do not activate in M+ or PvP and vise versa.

I mentioned something like this a while back. The idea being, each end game area (M+, Raid, PvP, World Content) has their own set bonuses. Make them something you apply to your gear, like the Eyes from mop or meta gems, or a system like essences, but not something that is the actual gear itself. Make all these bonuses tailored for the desired of the appropriate content. PvP bonuses would be more focused on defensive aspects, World content could be very basic stat increases/procs, M+ could be more focused on AoE and self/group sufficiency, with Raiding being more focused on ST/throughput. They could all be active in any activity, but they would just be more useful in their respective one. Of course there would be edge cases, but generally speaking, I think it would freshen things up.

[munkeyinorbit]

This is really no different though than having a guild who's willing to drag your alt through a heroic clear while stacking classes to pass gear to you.
I'm cutting out the rest a bit to just dive into that specific point.

No one is getting into M+10s by pugging. You need a group who's willing to drag you through, or you're gearing up from scratch, climbing the totem pole from M+2 to M+10.

Yes, having no "lock out" on M+ does allow you to do this in a more repeatable fashion than M+ but still, not really a driving issue with it. Especially when there's ridiculously strong trinkets that come from the raid itself.

Yes. There is no problem at all at being able to skip all content except mythic raids in a week because the trinkets in raids are OP. It's really healthy for the community. Especially raiding.

The gearing in m+ is a huge issue. It is a spammable feature that rewards gear too powerful too quickly. Imagine if there was no lockout on raiding? That's what mythic plus is, but easier.

[Kralljin]

This is really no different though than having a guild who's willing to drag your alt through a heroic clear while stacking classes to pass gear to you.

Requiring at least nine people is a whole different story than getting dragged through M+.

No one is getting into M+10s by pugging. You need a group who's willing to drag you through, or you're gearing up from scratch, climbing the totem pole from M+2 to M+10.

Considering you are talking about getting dragged through, i did that with a friend actually.

I got Mythic Ilvl, he had shit ilvl, still got invited into every m+10 Pug.
So he went from fresh to ~420 within days, that's not possible with just raiding, the lockout naturally prevents you from doing that.

Yes, having no "lock out" on M+ does allow you to do this in a more repeatable fashion than M+ but still, not really a driving issue with it.

It sure is.
After all, there is a reason why Raids have lockouts, so that people aren't burning out too fast on new content and have a steady motivation to come back next week.
As said earlier, if you have no intention of mythic raiding, you essentially are able to hit max Ilvl within days after season release.

Because Blizzard has an obvious interest in you still having a reason to log in, they came up with system such as titanforging so upgrades are still "possible", the weekly chest comes out of this thought process.

Especially when there's ridiculously strong trinkets that come from the raid itself.

Depending on your class, decent M+ trinkets are within less than 1k dps in comparison to raid trinkets, they're not a huge upgrade.
The only thing that keeps raid trinkets afloat is the fact that Mythic reliably awards high Ilvl, whereas M+ relies on Titanforging.

[Jester Joe]

Yes. There is no problem at all at being able to skip all content except mythic raids in a week because the trinkets in raids are OP. It's really healthy for the community. Especially raiding.

The gearing in m+ is a huge issue. It is a spammable feature that rewards gear too powerful too quickly. Imagine if there was no lockout on raiding? That's what mythic plus is, but easier.

You realize even 415 trinkets outperform some of the 440 trinkets you can get from the M+ cache?

Font of Power is a huge power swing for some specs, razor coral and leviathan lure are two other ridiculously strong trinkets.

Again, no one is getting into M+10 after just hitting 120 unless you have a group willing to carry you. Hell, you're not getting into M+ in general until you gear up yourself. Unless you have a group willing to carry you.

Which is literally no different than a guild carrying you through Heroic.
Mind you, you're also focusing too much on single example.

Trinkets are just the major "You need to raid" example.

There's also stuff like Diver's Folly, the raiding essence, azerite gear (M+ only gives currency towards buying the gear at the end of the week, if you want a quicker chance at it the raid is the way to go. I know I mentioned M+ has the best azerite, but you still have to luck the hell out to get that ideal piece while the raid gear is reliable to know what you're getting).

It's silly to act as if the raid is irrelevant when there's tons of reasons to go into the raid instead of running M+. If you want to chain run M+ to dash to 430 gear with probably less than ideal trinkets and no azerite, by all means go for it.

[Gaidax]

Talk about an issue sucked out of thumb.

Basically a bunch of shitty assumptions: "Blizzard can't do X because it affects Y"... but they do X and it's fine?

They are balancing around raids first and foremost, that's why M+ balance is nothing to write home about, while raids are about as close as it gets. Raiding awards ridiculously powerful items already, especially Mythic Raiding, which is the only source of high ilvl weapons, direct Azerite drops and trinkets that shit on M+ ones.

M+, on the other hand, while rewarding inherently inferior loot to Mythic raiding can be spammed to tip the scales a bit back.

Both modes coexist just fine - if you are a primary mythic raider, you will do your one weekly M+ run for maximum effort vs reward payout and forget about it. On the other hand if you don't want to commit to raiding you still have ok progression path in M+.

Unlike Arenas, which was basically Arena or bust on its inception, M+ is an option and raiding is an option you can tap into one and another both for optimal setup, but you don't have to grind the shit out of both at the same time and you can totally just do one of those and still end up being geared to teeth.

[Thelyron]

The only thing is I don't really want to have to carry around all these different sets/items in my bags again especially as a paladin

Yeah, same. A solution for that would be that gear sets that are saved in the item manager (is that how it's called? the thing to the right of your stats where you can save item sets) no longer take up inventory space.