Blizzard designed themselves into a corner with M+

[Doffen]

If you PUG PvP, people will get mad and eject after a single loss.
If you PUG raids, people will get mad and eject after a wipe or two.
If you PUG dungeons, people will get mad and eject after things go poorly.

Clearly the above points to a fundamental problem with mythic+ right? /s

You're straining so hard to try to connect on some point that there are these huge problems with mythic+ that don't exist but you're just whiffing. The one thing that you said that is true is that raids and mythic+ cannot both be balanced (but here is a hint: that was already obvious to everyone day one.)

Try to remember that you're talking to people who play the game. The whole "mythic+ is so much more toxic than anything else" schtick isn't going to convince the people who actually do mythic+.

P.S. If you're getting declined for hours, that means you are only applying to groups you have no business being a part of. Being meta gets you invited faster, in general, but it is not required.

Yep. There is only one reason why the OP would mention this, we know why. I don't find any part of the game toxic, I pug raids and mythic+ every week and it's just nice talking and focus on the job. Sure some groups have this one or two individuals but thats just a given. If I were to pick, pug raids and random BGs are the most "toxic" ones. Very rare for mythic+.

I know a guy who hates pugs, and he pugs 3 times a year and for some reason the groups are always full of rude and mean people. I can only guess what the real issue is. His own attitude.

Most of the cases where a player yell TOXIC is mostly because of that player himself.

[Nnyco]

And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).

So? Who cares if the 1% "have" todo both.

[Ange]

Casual playing in WoW is allways a smart move.

I am not sure if M+ is to blame for everything. Personal Loot did the heavy lifting. Check every server, the typical loot whores in mythic raiding guilds of the past, are not dominating ilvl/simDPS lists and you see even some non-raiders on the best geared/simming lists.

It shows that alternative gearing works, at least till 8.3 and how hard Personal Loot hit the lootcouncil mafia.

[Halyon]

Not all sports require straight PvP competitiveness.

They could easily make raiding a competitive sport the same way they have the MDI, several groups, add a gear vendor, add a timer, cast it.

MDI has been the biggest eSport success for WoW and for good reason; audience, accessibility and it's something even people that don't play the game can follow. I've literally put it on to watch on the couch and my wife was able to follow along with it and it'll just get more accessible as the casting and production teams get better.

Didn't deny that it was a sport. Ain't an esport though. It's not down to yearly competitions for large sums of money (or any money). It only happens when a new raid is out or when some osrt of record is set for M+. You can't compete with raids and M+ to satisfy an esport demand without at least making a new system specifically for it, or overhauling it as it is now.

[Shelly]

Didn't deny that it was a sport. Ain't an esport though. It's not down to yearly competitions for large sums of money (or any money). It only happens when a new raid is out or when some osrt of record is set for M+. You can't compete with raids and M+ to satisfy an esport demand without at least making a new system specifically for it, or overhauling it as it is now.

The biggest problem is that Blizz wants to own the M+ competitive scene.

However it does have several large money cups each year. Not on the level of Fortnite or LoL I'll agree, but frankly that's down to Blizz not wanting to really pony up the serious cash to generate the big buzz.

[Halyon]

The biggest problem is that Blizz wants to own the M+ competitive scene.

However it does have several large money cups each year. Not on the level of Fortnite or LoL I'll agree, but frankly that's down to Blizz not wanting to really pony up the serious cash to generate the big buzz.

And tbh, they shouldn't. Not as a mainstay for normal servers. Diablo-esque season servers would be better then, if they wanna do it properly. And tbh, why shouldn't they own mythic+, which is their own thing in their own game? xD

[Jester Joe]

You don't even need four people.
A single one that acts are bargaining chip into pugs is all you need.

Except that still relies on luck, and circumstances.

Are you a 450 prot warrior with 2k io? Yeah, I'm sure you'll be able to get your 390 friend into the run because you'll be doing as much damage as a DPS for all the aoe packs.

But that's also true for pugging raids, you could get your 390 friend into a heroic run by being drastically outgeared yourself.

You're the one who brought "getting carried" into this discussion, not me.

This doesn't change what I said though? I specifically said

"No one is getting into M+10s by pugging. You need a group who's willing to drag you through, or you're gearing up from scratch, climbing the totem pole from M+2 to M+10.".
Your situation doesn't contradict that.

When you're there being drastically over geared, you're dragging them into the higher content they can't access through pugging.
Which by the way still doesn't change the fact that it's much easier to carry someone through M+ than Raids, because they're easier.

And not being able to jump straight into M+10 is an entirely redudant argument, because you can't do that in raids as well.

Did I claim you can?

And it's far easier in M+, because if have a M+10 key, you basically hold the power to make a group.

It doesn't matter if you have a M+10 key and people can clearly see you're 390 ilvl after they join.

To raise your io, sure, if your score is on the lower end but it's your key you'll have some luck, but not when it comes to "The DPS who put this group together is just looking for a carry".

Are you just replying for the sake of it here?
Or do you seriously try to sell "you can do raids as often as you like as well" as argument?

I would rather you try to explain your own point first.
You say "You can easily gear up through spamming M+", but then you also claim that raids have a lock out to stop people from getting burnt out.

But by your own logic, you don't even need to step into the raid anyway.

I might not be wording this right, but your entire point seems to be contradictory. You claim people can spam M+10 and get up to 430 in a week and not have a reason to step into the raid, but that Blizzard also designs the game so that people keep coming back week after week without getting burnt out on...gear they don't even need?

Like, titanforging isn't restricted to just raids ya know?

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#shaman_elemental

Leviathan's Lure (415):
2,4k Dps

Rotcrusted Voodoo Doll (445):
2.9k Dps

Lady Waycrest's Music Box (445).
2.9k Dps

They are only powerful if you compare them right next to each other, but on the grand scale they're not that impactful.
A lot of raid trinkets simply get saved on the basis of having reliably high ilvl from Mythic.

You realize you should take bloodmallet with a grain of salt, right?

It sims based on predetermined builds, but that isn't always the case for every single class.

https://stormearthandlava.com/guide/...l/talents.html
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/elemen...builds-talents
For your elemental shaman case, you can pick Primal Elementalist or Storm Elemental.

Which could drastically shift the weight in those trinkets.

Mind you, you already skewed the ilvl up to 445 when I said 440 because I'm talking about the weekly M+ which is at least 440.

If you want to compare actual trinkets, look at the 430 compared to a 415.

And you cherrypick the best example, so allow me to cherrypick the worst offenders of raid trinket dominance.

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#paladin_retribution
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#hunter_beast_mastery
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#warlock_affliction
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#warrior_fury

Oh, and the top-
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#warlock_destruction

a 400 font of power outperforms ANY M+ trinket at 445.

It's same thing when people lose their minds over sockets in Rings, those sockets aren't more powerful, they're still just sockets, whether i have them in my ring or gloves is irrelevant.

There's a huge difference between sockets in rings and sockets in gloves.

Rings don't have primary stats. Gloves with a socket can be outweighed just by the pure primary stat gain.
That doesn't happen with rings, especially if your ring has your best stats.

There's a reason you can be stuck with a 400 ring with a socket yet that won't happen to 400 gloves with a socket.

[Razion]

I thought the entire premise of M+ was that because it scaled infinitely upwards, it was a fool's errand to balance it anyway. People would always push higher and higher anyway, despite where you thought the ceiling was, and then suddenly you have strategies and approaches that change as a result. Raiding, meanwhile, is infinitely more predictable. It makes sense to balance around Raiding because it is the most predictable scenario to account for. But people choice of poison will always detract from their enjoyment of the game if they receive no attention at all. In a world where PvP and Raiding also had Keystones and ascended higher and higher in an endless ladder, balance can either become stricter or looser. With Shadowlands, we're getting a new kind of infinite scaling difficulty to, what, a more solo open-world kind of scenario? A world where literally everything keystones, I wonder if balance ends up becoming more uniform and predictable because all the content does this and ends up having these keystone-like gameplay loops, or the inverse where because the keystone gameplay evolves into meta-defining strategy, that it becomes more cerebral and thus requires a different kind of balancing - which, dubious on my end if that's harder or not.

[The Butt Witch]

Why would you even raid for gear?
You can complete a +14 or something in 20 min OR wipe for hours in a mythic raid for the same gear.

[Zentail]

The solution to this problem is incredibly simple as it's how they handle PvP (at least, they used to). Some skills simply operated differently in PvP combat so that a skill could almost be entirely different from PvE -> PvP content. All they need to do is something similar here raids -> Mythic+ Dungeons.

Oh, Druid is OP AF in Mythic+ but weak AF in Raids? Well, let's make Rejuvenate heal a bit less in M+ and a bit more in raids.

The only problem with all of this, which templates would ALSO pose, is no one wants to have their character be different in different types of content. I don't want to play a character with X power in the world, but he has Y power in Mythic+ and Z power in Raids and PvP.

Overall, I think Blizzard is handling balancing pretty fine. I think people who think otherwise are min-maxers, in which case there will always be a "best" formation no matter what. Blizzard, or any person/company, couldn't possibly hope to EVER change that unless they only had a single heal spec, a single tank spec, and a single DPS spec that all only have a single ability that you just spam. Only then would all things be equal. I think people sometimes don't understand that having unbalance is balance. The fact that M+ isn't the same organization as a Raid is a PERFECT example of balance.

[Kokolums]

Also, if they wanted to be SERIOUS with Island Expeditions, they will ALSO need its own gear progression. ALSO, if they want to be serious with Torghast, it will ALSO need its own gear progression.

So how about carrying around 5 sets?

They keep adding game modes, and each time, its either a joke or a serious progression system requiring its own gear balancing. Pretty soon every class must be the same at this rate.

[Mystikal]

The only thing is I don't really want to have to carry around all these different sets/items in my bags again especially as a paladin

Indeed. My bags are quite full enough with 4 specs' worth of gear on my Druid, and the various extra items for different setups as the situation demands.

[Kaver]

M+ is dead easy to organize so people pick on a "meta" basis. Moreover you are restricted to just 5 people and you need to squeeze in the maximum number of useful utility abilities, whereas in raids you have way more people to cover them. You absolutely need someone with a combat rez. You need a rogue for shroud. You need a monk / rogue / DH for interrupts. You need a ranged to handle certain mechanics. If you aren't picking meta, you are going to get rekt.

As you mention here, the meta of M+ is more defined more by utility than dps/hps. The simple fact that melees have a short interrupt make them much more attractive than ranged in general. And some classes like Rogue and DH got so much useful utility compared to other classes. This could easily be fixed by giving the "bad" classes more utility.

[shise]

I don´t see it as such a big problem. Obviously, as you mention, balance is an issue and I only see a way to fix it according to today´s game design standards (and I hope it does NOT happen... we have enough of that crap), an extra layer of talents specific for M+ rofl.

I think M+ should remain a "secondary" activity in progression. That being said, a lot of people I know play 2 or even 3 characters as close as their mains, so it is not that bad. You can do M+ on your tank, raid on your DPS and pvp with either or even another character. That is the whole point of having alts.

In Shadowlands this makes even more sense as the leveling seems to be aimed at making it nicer for those of us leveling a few toons.

As you said, it is a corner, but I think that sometimes you need to put yourself in certain positions if you are to create something. Obviously M+ is popular and a lot of peopel wouldn´t even be playing right now if not for it. So the compromise is well worth it

[WowIsDead64]

Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders. This is also why tier sets don't fit into the current design paradigm. When they tried to have unique and powerful rewards from different forms of content, Shadowmourne in WotLK arenas happened.

There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.

Once the momentum from Legion wears off and more and more people realize that the current design is boring and unbalanced, participation will plummet. This is exactly what happened with arenas and rated PvP in general. Once people realized that Blizzard would never sacrifice raid balance in favor of PvP balance, they left. The initial hype from TBC sustained it into MoP but in WoD participation just got destroyed and never recovered. And back during the TBC-WoD period there was a much higher population to sustain continued arena participation.

Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.

This is a classic example of "try to please everyone and you won't please anyone". Except, well, people who play casually. Now is a great time to play casually. You have tons of different content to try and the problems don't become apparent until you reach the very top level. But the parallels between arena's decline and M+ are definitely there. M+ has already become more exclusionary and elitist compared to its Legion iteration.

Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.

People constantly ask for alternative ways to play this game, you know. They wait "Bring the player - not content" system, where players would do content, they actually like, not content, they're forced to do due to mandatory rewards. And may be M+ is step in a right direction. Only bad thing - Blizzard also take outdoor content from casuals and give it to all this Raid/Mythic+ crowd, that is: a) Minority b) Has enough content even without it. I talk about tuning content for guys in overgear instead of doing right thing - tuning it for guys in gear, obtained from this content only.

What I also don't agree with - is all this "Players unsubbed due to ruined PVP". People tend to turn Cata/MOP/WOD sub loss argument to suit their opinion. No. Since Cata Blizzard have been constantly ruining PVE exactly in favor of PVP. For example dumbing down classes to bring them on par with the most popular one-button-style PVP specs, like Frost Mages. WotLK had the most powerful and the deepest classes in Wow's history. And in PVE everything was 100% ok. The best class mechanics in Wow's history. 12M subs. They have been nerfed to the ground exactly due to "PVP one shots" problem. That's, why decline on subs started.

[Solarflash]

WotLK had the most powerful and the deepest classes in Wow's history. And in PVE everything was 100% ok. The best class mechanics in Wow's history.

MOP was soooo much better than WotLK in every way. The story is probably the only point where there is debate, and that is only due to the connection fans had to northrend prior to the expansion. Where as MOP was original content story wise to the franchise.

[kranur]

So that means that WoW can never have any other form of progression or content that is not pointless outside of raiding because hardcore raiders feel that they need to do it? Ok, no.
It's not world of raiding and wownhas never been able to have classes balanced in all forms of content, even before m+.

[Firefall]

MOP was soooo much better than WotLK in every way. The story is probably the only point where there is debate, and that is only due to the connection fans had to northrend prior to the expansion. Where as MOP was original content story wise to the franchise.

Yeah agreed, Cata and MoP both had way deeper class design than Wrath, no idea what this guy is going on about.

[Asrialol]

People constantly ask for alternative ways to play this game, you know. They wait "Bring the player - not content" system, where players would do content, they actually like, not content, they're forced to do due to mandatory rewards. And may be M+ is step in a right direction. Only bad thing - Blizzard also take outdoor content from casuals and give it to all this Raid/Mythic+ crowd, that is: a) Minority b) Has enough content even without it. I talk about tuning content for guys in overgear instead of doing right thing - tuning it for guys in gear, obtained from this content only.

What I also don't agree with - is all this "Players unsubbed due to ruined PVP". People tend to turn Cata/MOP/WOD sub loss argument to suit their opinion. No. Since Cata Blizzard have been constantly ruining PVE exactly in favor of PVP. For example dumbing down classes to bring them on par with the most popular one-button-style PVP specs, like Frost Mages. WotLK had the most powerful and the deepest classes in Wow's history. And in PVE everything was 100% ok. The best class mechanics in Wow's history. 12M subs. They have been nerfed to the ground exactly due to "PVP one shots" problem. That's, why decline on subs started.

Yeah mechanics in Wrath was dope. I remember on my Holy Pala the only ability I really used was Holy Light. Very deep and engaging gameplay mechanics indeed. Not to mention some specs were broken due to ArP stacking. 100% ok.

[Wilfire]

So that means that WoW can never have any other form of progression or content that is not pointless outside of raiding because hardcore raiders feel that they need to do it? Ok, no.
It's not world of raiding and wownhas never been able to have classes balanced in all forms of content, even before m+.

Actually the most successful iterations of WoW (vanilla - early Cata) were world of raiding. Raiding was the only meaningful form of endgame progression. Everything was designed around raiding. But for some reason people who didn't want to do organized raiding kept playing WoW instead of finding a game more suited to their style of gameplay and they bitched and bitched and bitched until Blizzard started to add alternative forms of endgame progression.